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Btw by all means celebrate your dialect. You'll not get thicker Glaswegian/Ruglonian than I speak!
Ain't no west end bawbaggery around here! 😆
This is a fascinating subject - what constitutes a language and who decides how that language is defined.
I was told that in Switzerland, they get taught High German (what they speak in Germany) in school, and their written language is the same, but they speak Swiss German. That's basically the same as what happened in Scotland only instead of recognising it as a language like Swiss German it was called local slang and labelled wrong.
So, do you just teach Scottish kids to spell differently? I mean in English we have slang words and proper words - who defines slang? Do we just let kids use 'slang' words in school and that way let them become an official dialect? In an international world, Scottish kids would still need to learn 'English' like everyone else does, so would they have 'English' lessons?
Do we just let kids use ‘slang’ words in school and that way let them become an official dialect
If enough used it for long enough then yes it could become a dialect or maybe even a language (although for kids slang since it tends to fall out of favour reasonably quickly it probably wouldnt get that far).
There are the various creole languages which may or may not be considered a language depending on who you talk to.
So, do you just teach Scottish kids to spell differently?
This is where it gets a bit weird. There has been an effort to shrug off the "Scottish Cringe" when it comes to people speaking the dialect. But Scots now is largely a verbal tradition.
Most written Scots is historic, there are efforts to write new content in Scots (which is the whole reason for this topic coming up after all) but it's not very well organised. Some of it is brilliant - The Gruffalo in Scots is fantastic, Scots Wikipedia not so much.
Schools definitely still teach Standard English primarily but are making more of an effort to acknowledge Scots and they have stopped actively discouraging it.
I mean in English we have slang words and proper words
There's definitely slang in Scots too that's distinct from the more formal dialect. "Ah dinnae ken" is Scots, "ah huvnae a Scooby" is slang. Most native Scots speakers would recognise both but understand the distinction.
Thanks richmtb - interesting.
Residual features of Scots are often regarded as slang.
I very much recognise this - use of certain words or pronunciations were not encouraged in polite conversation, at school, &c..
Some Scots words have such a great sound to them and would probably be fun for children to learn - although, of course, your daughter may be past the age for word fun!
seosamh77 - I found this to be an interesting read:
Smith, Jeremy. (2017) Scots: an outline history. Online https://dsl.ac.uk/about-scots/an-outline-history-of-scots/
There’s definitely slang in Scots too that’s distinct from the more formal dialect. “Ah dinnae ken” is Scots, “ah huvnae a Scooby” is slang. Most native Scots speakers would recognise both but understand the distinction.
Absolutely this ... but when I was at school - sometime in the middle ages - we were discouraged from using even the more formal dialect, as you say.
Most heard phrases in Kirkcaldy Sheriff Court
Wisnae me and a de ken when asked who the perpetrator of the crime is
You lot might like this ... Oor Wullie - from The Comic Art Website.
Rona
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seosamh77 – I found this to be an interesting read:Smith, Jeremy. (2017) Scots: an outline history. Online https://dsl.ac.uk/about-scots/an-outline-history-of-scots//blockquote >
Cheers will have a read.
I think as others have said the definition of dialect vs language is blurred, and there's clearly some political element to when each term is chosen.
Having said that, I moved to Scotland about 20 years ago, I've always been able to get by but I can sit in a pub or out and about and have a chat with someone that I know my dad at least couldn't understand. There were elements of the language even university students would use that I took a while to get used to and understand properly. There are words my girlfriend uses that I can assure you aren't English!
I think it's worth anyone who lives or works here being able to understand the locals, but at the same time the standardisation of language is something that happens in a professional context, even internationally now that English has become the language of business in so many places. It doesn't mean that you should delete the local language or dialect, but it is useful in work etc. to be able to communicate clearly with a wider range of people.
but when I was at school – sometime in the middle ages – we were discouraged from using even the more formal dialect, as you say.
Aye me an aw 😉
But there was this juxtaposition between Cultural or Historic Scots and normal speech. I remember being taught Burns in primary school and even singing "If it wisnae fur yir Wellies" but then been corrected for saying "Aye" and "Naw" even while the Scots dialect was taught in poetry and song.
Personally I have a weird relationship with Scots.
I was born in Ayrshire but moved to Australia when I was 4. We came back to Ayrshire when I was 11 and I sounded like i'd wandered in off the set of Neighbours.
When Scots was taught in school it felt like a pisstake of the Aussie boy! My accent quickly returned but I was encouraged not to use it and speak Standard English instead.
Funnily enough, I can't remember ever being taught anything at all about the Scots language / dialect. Not even Burns. I probably just wasn't paying attention. Mind you, I didn't grow up in Ayrshire.
If you had been at my school, with an Australian accent, I suspect you would have been pretty popular!
I was born and bred in Ayr and got heehaw about Burns at the schule bar a couple of lessons round about January 25 . Even that was only in first and second year, from 3rd year they started battering awa at Shakespeare and Burns's bum was oot the windae
There are definitely distinctive Scots words my family used that aren't dialect. In fact, skelf is one of them, and I still use it to this day. Some of my family hailed from the Borders so we had a smattering of Lallans too. I always took that to be a dialect of Scots but I think it's probably more closely related to some Old English.
The alternative vocabulary is one thing, but the fact that the grammar in Scots variants seems (to me) to be the same as English does rather suggest it's a dialect.
The generally accepted closet language to English is Frisian. Some examples on this page are hard to read because the transliteration seems rather like Dutch. But the english fake phonetics might seem familiar to scholars of Old English or speakers of Scots maybe?
I can't speak West Frisian well.
Myn Frysk is net sa goed.
the grammar in Scots variants seems (to me) to be the same
What's the plural of 'you' in English?
There are loads of Scots word that aren’t just “English with a funny spelling”
Quite a few are similar to Swedish and German words.
I found this thread quite fascinating and went away to look things up - here are two things I found, just in case anyone else is interested ...
This short film is a soothing massage. It’s of a lady from Shetland talking about herself and her poetry. From 8 minutes in, she recites a poem of her own … simply gorgeous (to me anyway).
This is a short film which covers the origins of the Scots language - from the Linguistics and English Language Department at the University of Edinburgh - very clear, and very interesting (to me, anyway!).
Edit - changed my mind. 🙂
What’s the plural of ‘you’ in English?
Y'all, but also 'you people' or 'you lot' or perhaps 'ye'. But that's just a word, are there any actually grammatical differences? Serious question.
There are a few subtle differences Mols but grammar is very similar to English (as you would expect)
Some of them a Scots speaker wouldn't even be aware of until they are pointed out.
Use of the definitive article can be different. "I'll do it now" becomes "I'll dae it the noo" You don't go to the beach in Summer you go in The Summer.
Word order can be different, instead of "turn the light off" in Scots you would prefer the form "Turn oot the light" Both word orders are acceptable in English or Scots but the preferences are reversed.
There's also the apocryphal tale of a speaker at a linguistics conference who points out that while there are many examples in the English language of a double negative becoming a positive there are no examples of a double positive becoming a negative. A Scottish delegate raise his hand and says "Aye, Right!"