And how exactly are the millions of hard working individuals who can only just afford to pay for today expected to start paying for tomorrow?
It's not all being ignorant and short sighted, some people just can't do it.
My Mrs rightly or wrongly has spent years gaining a qualification for a job she loves that pays sod all and has no pension, she can't save beyond what she is, not everyone is furnished with all of these well laid financial plans.
Who is educating the average person as to what they need to be doing for their future? Are we relying on every person to have a grip of what they should be doing to safeguard themselves when it's actually a total minefield.
Start saving early they say, well seeing as the majority of people are saving for a deposit for a house into their 30's these days how exactly do they find the extra?
And how exactly are the millions of hard working individuals who can only just afford to pay for today expected to start paying for tomorrow?
They're not, unless we start taxing the rich and re-distributing wealth more evenly amongst the population.
Currently we're heading towards a society where we have a tiny obscenely rich elite, virtually no middle class and a mass of low paid bread line surfs (which is the Tory wet dream of how a society should be).
Who is educating the average person as to what they need to be doing for their future?
This is the problem.
As far as I remember I wasn't taught the delights of compound interest, tax efficiency and the effects of inflation at school. If I was it certainly was not done in a meaningful way that explains that if you don't put these things to work in your favour you're much less likely to succeed financially.
Some form of 'financial awareness' should be on the national curriculum in my opinion. People need to be taught that when you take out a mortgage, loan, credit card etc you are not borrowing from the bank, you're actually borrowing from you're future self. You're making your future self poorer.
Once you grasp that and turn it around in your favour (i.e. save for things you want to buy, earn interest and invest) you make your future self richer. Compound interest will usually mean that in the long term the effects are big even if you only start off small.
Of course I realise not everyone can get ahead or has the same opportunities however I reckon 95% of people could be a lot better off by applying some of these principles consistently.
Understand NPV helps a lot I find but not many get that. A pound today is worth more than a pound tomorrow.
Currently we're heading towards a society where we have a tiny obscenely rich elite, virtually no middle class and a mass of low paid bread line surfs
Well we already have the tiny obscenely rich elite and a mass of low paid bread line surfs. Always have had in living memory. But virtually no middle class? I'd say that't the fastest growing sector of all. I, like many of my friends, came from a working class background and have now progressed into what you would call, for the want of a better name, the "middle class". The sheer number of Audis and BMWs on the road is proof enough of the rise of the "middle class".
But virtually no middle class? I'd say that't the fastest growing sector of all.
Pretty sure it's shrinking in the UK or at least growth is slowing considerably. It's definitely shrinking in the US and has been for a few years. NB the UK is only a few years behind in terms of economic trends.
http://billmoyers.com/2013/09/20/by-the-numbers-the-incredibly-shrinking-american-middle-class/
The sheer number of Audis and BMWs on the road is proof enough of the rise of the "middle class".
Don't know about that. I saw an interesting article a while back about the average salary and disposable income of those financing various car brands. Made for very interesting reading. I'll see if i can dig it out.
I saw an interesting article a while back about the average salary and disposable income of those financing various car brands. Made for very interesting reading. I'll see if i can dig it out.
I'd be interested to see that. I suspect a lot of these are bought on the never never i.e. by people that can't afford them.
People need to be taught that when you take out a mortgage, loan, credit card etc you are not borrowing from the bank, you're actually borrowing from you're future self. You're making your future self poorer.
Not if the asset rises in value more than the interest payments which house historically have. If the alternative to a mortgage is paying rent then a mortgage is usually a good investment over the long term.
Likewise if a car loan means the ability to take a higher paid job then the loan interest is worth it.
Who is educating the average person as to what they need to be doing for their future?
Good point. It seems as if people post up on this forum with some pretty dumb financial questions, and seem to happily admit they haven't got a clue. It's not rocket science, but you just have to get through the jargon the FS industry throws around to confuse the average punter who usually buries their head in the sand.
The good news is financial education will form a part of the compulsory national curriculum for all maintained schools in England from September 2014.
Not if the asset rises in value more than the interest payments which house historically have. If the alternative to a mortgage is paying rent then a mortgage is usually a good investment over the long term.Likewise if a car loan means the ability to take a higher paid job then the loan interest is worth it.
Exactly this, my mortgage is a tad cheaper than equivalent rents in my area. My future self will be better off once the mortgage is paid as no lump sum cost each month for a roof over my head.
Don't know about that. I saw an interesting article a while back about the average salary and disposable income of those financing various car brands. Made for very interesting reading. I'll see if i can dig it out.
If you stick in BMW or Audi to the YouGov profiling tool, the 'money left at end of month' is surprisingly low. I suspect most people are stretching themselves to the limit to drive a status car.
Pretty sure it's shrinking in the UK or at least growth is slowing considerably. It's definitely shrinking in the US and has been for a few years. NB the UK is only a few years behind in terms of economic trends.
I can't argue with the stats, but it's totally at odds with what I see in living standards today v my parents v my grandpaents. Are you saying we are all poorer today (apart from the rich elite of course). I don't get that at all. 30 odd years ago when I was growing up, the middle class seemed pretty small and distant to me. Today it seems like quite a large chunk of the population are fairly well off (middle class if you like). Or is this shrinking a very recent trend due to the last recession? If so it's nothing compared to the overall growth in the last 40 years.
If you stick in BMW or Audi to the YouGov profiling tool, the 'money left at end of month' is surprisingly low. I suspect most people are stretching themselves to the limit to drive a status car.
yeah but 30 or 40 years ago, the very same people would be driving Morris Marinas and only 1 car per household. For sure the credit leverage makes a big difference today, but it's not like my working class parents ever had any significant amount of disposable income anyway.
Ultimately the vast majority of people do still live within their means and a car as a status symbol is nothing new. It's just more widely accessible today by the "middle class" masses, which was my point. When you drive through a typical council estate do you see lots of brand new Audis and BMWs? I don't.
When we, as a society, agree to allowing us the only one basic 'human right' - which is to choose whether we live or die - then the total scam of the 20th century I.e. pensions, won't matter.
Have a lovely day everyone!
If you lived now like your grandparents had to live just to survive, then you would be well off, i.e. save a third of income, pay off your mortgage, avoid expensive habits, don't take on debt.
But if we all lived like that are consumer-debt based economy would collapse.
Education and an ingrained savings habit from an early age is key I think.
If you stick in BMW or Audi to the YouGov profiling tool, the 'money left at end of month' is surprisingly low. I suspect most people are stretching themselves to the limit to drive a status car.
Hmmmmmm..... a ridiculous property bubble in the South East, fuelled by record low interest rates. People using cheap, available credit, from an unreformed banking sector, to buy stuff they can't afford
Anyone else getting that feeling of Deja vu?
I can't argue with the stats, but it's totally at odds with what I see in living standards today v my parents v my grandpaents.
Complex this, I think. Define living standards?
We can buy a lot of stuff now that our parents could not, but that's because those things are cheaper. Our first 'computer' in 1983 cost £179!
The contents of the supermarkets has improved too I think, so perhaps we are buying better food. What else has changed?
Yup, we are in a wheel of inevitability.
Sadly rising house prices make people feel well off so they spend money which politicians like as it makes them more likely to get voted back in.
None of the parties would actually clamp down on credit and spend money building houses.
Whoever proposed those two things would be unpopular so its not going to happen.
I know lots of serfs who surf. Serfs might also go in for imaginary social mobility through conspicuous consumption. Driving round in a big old jallopy doesn't change your class position, it can, in many ways, confirm it.
I'm self employed in a job I could easily continue 1-2 days a week after 65 which would pay me enough for a comfy living whilst giving me something to do. At present I have done a uturn and stopped growing the business; in fact, I've shrunk it by 40% this year. This is due to having a new baby and wanting to spend the nedt few years being with him as much as possible. A life choice, family over money. Why would I want to dig in at work in my prime years only to wake up at 65 with money, but a looser bond and fainter set of memories of those around me?
I've decided I can always grow the business in future once kid/s grown up and left if I want. We don't have a mortgage but as I said before may upscale to a bigger home if we can afford to. I reckon spare money put intoa property could be worth more than pension funds. And downsize at retirement, or rent out property.
There will be some form of state pension in 40 years; ok, I may not manage three trips around the world per year and a large jag in retirement, but we should be able to eat
[i]I think I'll be OK. I don't trust that there will be any state pension at all when I am older and the world can suck my cock if they think I'm working past 65.[/i]
So you're paying a pile into you're pension, your mortgage is paid off but you're going to work until you're 65?
[i]Edit:[/i] although from a thread a few weeks ago you were thinking of retiring now, or you were when you were 32.
My plan is to retire at 56, I'll have a reasonable pension fund by then plus my wife is a teacher and has a fantastic pension.
Just over 8 years to go 🙂
Or is this shrinking a very recent trend due to the last recession? If so it's nothing compared to the overall growth in the last 40 years.
A vast number of middle class jobs have either been replaced by technology (secretaries, admin staff etc) or out sourced by Globalisation. The remaining white colour workers are seeing a steady fall in living standards relative to the generation before (pensions, home ownership, purchasing power). Most middle class children today will not be as well off as their parents.
Most middle class children today will not be as well off as their parents.
Aye, bloody baby boomers, coming here, taking our future.
In all seriousness, there will surely be a point in 20-30 years or so where working age adults get fed up for forking out for all the 100year olds' 40 years of retirement, medical care and final salary pensions (either in tax for healthcare or strain on businesses through pension bills).
Complex this, I think. Define living standards?We can buy a lot of stuff now that our parents could not, but that's because those things are cheaper. Our first 'computer' in 1983 cost £179!
The contents of the supermarkets has improved too I think, so perhaps we are buying better food. What else has changed?
A complex you say?
Well my grandparents grew up in a Northern cotton mill town. They had no money, no holidays, no car, no savings, basically nothing at all other than a roof over their head and basic food on the table. They didn't even have an indoor toilet. That's how most ordinary people lived in those days. The middle class mill owners had a nice big town house and lived a fairly grand life in comparison, but there were hardly millions of them. It was slightly better for my parents. They managed to scrimp and save for a modest little semi by the time they were in their 50s. Even bought a new car (VW Lupo) as a retirement present. They had a far more comfortable lifestyle than their parents ever did. No debt involved for them either, just honest hard work.
As for my family, we have a generous income, several properties home and abroad, 3 cars and the sort of lifestyle that my grandparents would simply not believe could exist. No debt or loans either, other than a reasonable mortgage that will be paid off in the next 8 years. Contrary to popular belief not everyone is in massive debt to fund their modern lifestyle. Numpties getting themselves into serious debt makes a better headline story than the millions who just live comfortably within their means. Credit can be used sensibly too and most people do control it pretty well IME.
That's how most ordinary people lived in those days.
That's what I'm saying. Aren't living standards measured relatively?
I when TVs came out they were high value luxury goods. Now, having a flat screen telly is nothing, it's just what everyday pepole own. So are living standards higher or not?
A vast number of middle class jobs have either been replaced by technology (secretaries, admin staff etc) or out sourced by Globalisation. The remaining white colour workers are seeing a steady fall in living standards relative to the generation before (pensions, home ownership, purchasing power). Most middle class children today will not be as well off as their parents.
What about the vast service based industry that has largely replaced manufacturing in the last 50 years? You are obviously living in a different country to me. I just haven't seen this vast number of middle class jobs disappearing. It might not be growing right this very second, but if you look back over the last few decades it certainly has. If any jobs are disappearing it's the traditional blue collar ones.
I when TVs came out they were high value luxury goods. Now, having a flat screen telly is nothing, it's just what everyday pepole own. So are living standards higher or not?
They are absolutely higher for the average Joe, no doubt about it. I presume you have an indoor toilet right?
