[Closed] No new petrol and diesel cars from 2040

We had the answer many years ago. Hardly anyone bought one...

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A modern version would be ace - a small capacity 4 cylinder motorbike engine would make them go faster than you'd want to drive them and acceleration would be stunning.

[quote=Edukator ]There are curently four places at my local Leclerc (thanks for 3kWh this morning, M.Leclerc, while we did our shopping), currently adequate but not for much longer I hope. Yes, we do most of our shopping on foot or by bike but now and then we stock up the heavy items.

Conveniently located? Could be an interesting bit of incentivising for the lazy there (assuming you don't just get the entitled parking normal cars in them as I'd imagine happening in the UK).

[quote=convert ]I like cycling and cycle commuted for years but it's not without it's compromises. British weather, typical British commute distances and the need to change at work if you have got yourself all sweaty will always put a lot of people off. A small nippy at least semi weather proof and easy to park commute vehicle has to be a win for a big proportion of journeys.

e-bikes cover a lot of that ground (including lack of requirement for a licence!) I reckon the weather issue is a bigger one than most people make out, so presumably you want something faster (and requiring a licence)?

Had my first go on an e-bike a few days ago, from what I've read about them on here I suspect the power delivery wasn't typical for what most people are discussing - it was a belt drive single speed, relatively high geared so your legs wouldn't be spinning madly at 15mph. Pedalling seemed to just be a means of turning the motor on, with very little effort required to whizz off, it was quite strange! Exactly the sort of thing I can imagine being ideal for commuting without having to put much effort in.

Cycling would be great if you could roll onto a long distance or local train, stick your bike in a slot and then enjoy the trip, and hop off the other end for a few minutes of easy cycling to get to the door.

A huge number of current car journeys are not long distance and could potentially be replaced by cycling. If Copenhagen can achieve 36%, I bet UK cities have scope to get a lot more people cycling.

e-bikes cover a lot of that ground (including lack of requirement for a licence!) I reckon the weather issue is a bigger one than most people make out, so presumably you want something faster (and requiring a licence)?

My wife would be a good example of needing what I'm proposing. She actually has an Ebike at the moment she has been using to go to a new job. It's about 2.5 miles away but about 100m difference in height at a location where parking is a nightmare. She is no cyclist and has no wish to be a cyclist but an E bike has ticked all the boxes. She goes to work in a nice dress and hair straightened ready to walk straight into a meeting. It's currently a perfect situation. But......just thinking ahead to the winter parking will still be a nightmare and on a rank winters day with rain teeming down I just don't think she would be prepared to get suited and booted at work and full waterproofs still don't really cut it. An electric covered moped might just keep her out of a car.

Get her some studded tyres for the snow and ice days.

In other news Porsche has to recall their diesel Cayennes on the orders of the German trnasport ministry. More significantly he's withdrawn type approval for the vehicles as they've found a cheat programme in the software.

Crush'em I say. 8)

a [url= https://investir.lesechos.fr/actions/actualites/emissions-berlin-demande-le-rappel-de-porsche-cayenne-1695517.php ]link[/url] in a foreign language so don't click if you don't read French.

And here's Zoé earlier doing her best to crash the French grid and failing:

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I just don't think she would be prepared to get suited and booted at work and full waterproofs still don't really cut it.

Serious suggestion - cape?

Serious suggestion - cape?

I'm up for all suggestions! Cape's not a bad shout actually. Bike is a sit up and beg dutch bike style thing with guards and skirt guards, alfine and chain guard. I reckon a cape, maybe over trousers and short wellies (with her work shoes at work) should make her pretty weather proof in full office clobber.

I'd be prepared to look skanky but she has standards! It would be interesting to see what the lovely ladies of Copenhagen and Amsterdam wear in the winter but they don't have to cope with the splash for passing cars in quite the same way.

[url= https://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2011/12/22/so-the-dutch-do-have-cycle-gear/ ]edit - the dutch do do rain gear[/url]

I'd just say on the wet days wear normal trousers and some wellies. Doesn't sound like she'd be out that long so wellies would probably work. Capes are good and not sweaty.

I used to commute 33km by bike and had to be in a management meeting at 8:00. The only strategy that worked on rainy days was a complete set of dry clothes and a towel in an Ortlieb pannier. And arriving in time for a sponge off and change.

At that distance I'd agree. But for 2.5km on an ebike it'd be different.

Me too. The 30km and a shower variant.

I think in addition to just the change to electricity, there needs to be an equally seismic shift in the physical device used to move around in ( as already discussed here ) that is away from the heavy box car at the moment.

I cant help but think that some super-light transport is going to have to be the future too. Over the years we have bundled 100's of Kgs onto cars ... perhaps its time to strip them right back to be super thin skin framework efforts. Lower weight, less power required.

Worth noting that because EVs have bi-directional powertrains (able to recapture KE) vehicle mass is actually not that important if you are considering minimising energy consumption! In fact, minimising DRAG (aerodynamic and rolling friction) is far, far more important.

In conjunction to that, as current chemical energy storage (batteries) have a low energy density, by the time you've added enough to them to get a sensible range, you automatically have a high power capability (so you can easily accelerate and deccelerate a heavy car). This really is why a Tesla is so fast, ie, it by the time they've stuffed in a massive battery to get long range, the huge power bit comes almost for free! (ok, a small amount of extra cost in power silicon and conductors/cables, but certainly no biggy at low manufacturing volumes)

molgrips - Member
Cycling would be great if you could roll onto a long distance or local train, stick your bike in a slot and then enjoy the trip, and hop off the other end for a few minutes of easy cycling to get to the door.

It's not quite that good though yet is it?

The irony was it was the same for a bicycle as for a motorbike if I remember right.

It would be interesting to see what the lovely ladies of Copenhagen and Amsterdam wear in the winter

Here you go:
http://www.copenhagencyclechic.com/2010/11/cycle-chic-guide-10-cycling-in-winter.html?m=1

Much has been made of the idea of having 'filling stations' for EV's, like we have for IC vehicles, but the problem on busy routes like the M4/M5/A30, which I use a lot, is that with so many vehicles probably travelling a fair distance and needing charging, it's not unlikely that with even fast charging taking thirty minutes or so the entire car park would need charging facilities installed to cope with the demand at busy periods.
It been mentioned the possibility of having quick-swap battery packs, but most EV's have the batteries spread right across the floor pan of the car, they're basically a shit-load of 18650 batteries as used in bigger flashlights all connected together, to spread the weight evenly along the car.
Data that Tesla accidentally leaked seems to indicate that the Tesla 3 that's being released today will be able to do 316 miles on a full charge, which is pretty good for a car smaller than the P and X series cars, but still a lot less than the 500+ miles I can get from a full tank in my Octavia.
However, this popped up on Flipboard yesterday: https://thenextweb.com/tech/2017/07/28/scientists-are-creating-a-cell-phone-battery-that-charges-instantly/#.tnw_c05LRa0c
This could be the game-changer in the next five-ten years.

Charging an 85kWh battery from flat in 10ms would need a 30GW charger I think. Did I get my orders of magnitude right?
I see a problem with that.

Even assuming it's half full and you want to do it in 10 minutes is 250kW. That's the peak power of a 100-200 property housing estate (more like 200 on a modern estate with gas heat and no EVs).

Charging an 85kWh battery from flat in 10ms would need a 30GW charger I think. Did I get my orders of magnitude right?

No, it would need one point twenty one jiggawatts.

No, it would need one point twenty one jiggawatts.

😀

Though to be fair you would make a hell of a saving on roads.

Teslas clearly need more power than DeLoreans

igm - Member

Teslas clearly need more power than DeLoreans

Pretty much [i]everything[/i] needs more power than a delorean, they made 130bhp at the crank. You know how it took basically forever in the film to reach 88mph, and it felt a bit daft? The manual Delorean, even without the weight of the time travel kit, ran a quarter mile in 16.5 seconds at 85mph.

The reason you need lots of petrol stations is because:

1) You CAN'T fill up at home

and

2) Because of 1, you wait till it's pretty much empty before you fill it up

With an EV, neither of those is true. Every time i unlock my car in the morning it's "full", so for most people who drive a small number of miles per day, no need to fill up away from home.
I've done nearly 10kmiles in my i3 since last September, and so far i've never used a charger that wasn't bolted to the side of my garage!

Seriously, you only need to use an external charger if you're doing a single day journey beyond the range of your EV, which is rapidly approaching 200miles for typical EVs (300 if you can afford a Tesla).

So, i ask you, count the number of days you have driven more than 200 miles in the last year? of course, some people will do this, but i bet for the vast majority of you, it'll be less than 5 days a year or similar tiny number.......

maxtorque

So, i ask you,

Well, you asked for it.......

Maxtorque is about right. For the same reason fast chargers are rarely needed.
The motorway journeys, holiday trip, etc is an issue but we need not to come up with a 365 day solution for a 5 day issue.
Travelling salesmen will of course need a 365 day solution.

and so far i've never used a charger that wasn't bolted to the side of my garage!

Count the number of garages in the following photo:-

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The solution needs to have a broader appeal that Mr&Mrs Jones of Surbiton in their middle class detached Barratt home with off street parking and garage.

Convert - that will be sorted. Not a worry long term.

[quote=maxtorque ]Seriously, you only need to use an external charger if you're doing a single day journey beyond the range of your EV, which is rapidly approaching 200miles for typical EVs (300 if you can afford a Tesla).
So, i ask you, count the number of days you have driven more than 200 miles in the last year? of course, some people will do this, but i bet for the vast majority of you, it'll be less than 5 days a year or similar tiny number.......

I'm doing a lot less driving than I used to, but have driven to somewhere over 100 miles away 10 times this year so far that I can remember. Because it's not 200 miles in a day, it's anywhere over 100 miles away which will require you to need an external charger (only a couple of those trips were there and back in a day). I suspect there are plenty of trips being taken to places over 100 miles away.

Nor does the relatively limited proportion of journeys of that length reduce the need for external recharging stations. My two most recent trips were to North Wales and the Lakes and in both cases encountered car parks which were completely full. I'm betting that the vast majority of people parking there had travelled over 100 miles to get there.

[quote=igm ]Convert - that will be sorted.

How?

So convert - we are all aware of the problems. What should the solutions be?

Seriously, you only need to use an external charger if you're doing a single day journey beyond the range of your EV, which is rapidly approaching 200miles for typical EVs

Nissan claim "up to" 155 miles for the Leaf.

Others say 90 miles real world range in winter.

https://www.topgear.com/car-reviews/nissan/leaf/tekna-5dr-auto/first-drive-0

So with a 40 mile commute I'd be dangerously close to empty without finding somewhere to charge it every day. Certainly every second day would need a charge.

irc

Nissan claim "up to" 155 miles for the Leaf.

Others say 90 miles real world range in winter.

Does that include driving enthusiastically? I heard somewhere that if you're really caning it you can drop a Tesla's range down to 25/30 miles.

Does that include driving enthusiastically?

Well if a 9mph average counts then yes.

Another way to look at the refueling situation is I do 10k miles per year. Charging a Leaf after (a generous) 100 miles would mean a charge 100 times per year. or once every 3.6 days.

I can run my Octavia to 400 miles before getting fuel so 25 fuel ups a year.

I'm guessing a charge up might take much longer than a fuel up. A lot of inconvenience for buying a more expensive car which is only cheaper to run because the fuel (for now) has minimal tax on it.

As I've said before the only way battery cars will work is with swappable batteries, and that means all manufacturers agreeing on what the power cell should look like and where it should fit in the car.

I'm not convinced electric is the future

That might be the only way they'll fit into our current usage patterns. But if we can think just slightly differently we might start to get somewhere.

FunkyDunc - Member

As I've said before the only way battery cars will work is with swappable batteries,

Or if the real world range meets or exceeds what you can safely/reasonably drive in a day.

aracer - Member

igm » Convert - that will be sorted.

How?

Good question.

That was why I spent Wednesday in the BEIS conference centre, that's why I will be with the Energy Systems Catapult and Nissan on Tuesday.

Charge at work, charge in every car park, filling stations, battery swaps, street lights with charge sockets - all been talked about, not all practical.

Part of it depends on where you put the meter and the intelligent bit of the charger control - I favour in car, some others favour on street.

In short, it's not a short answer, but it will keep me employed for a few years yet.

Moly has an interesting point.

I think I already pointed out how current EVs (see what I did there) look like ICE cars with the tank and engine swapped for batteries and motor. Bit like early mobiles looked like landlines without a wire.

Now look at mobiles. Cars will change to a similar degree.

irc - you're thinking about fuelling your EV like you do your ICE. Provided we go with slow charging for the vast majority of charges it won't be a problem the vast majority of the time. Strangely fast charging will be more of an inconvenience.

It's been a while since I've been to Canada but back then there were charge ports lining all the side streets and at every car park so your car wouldn't freeze in the winter. i know it's not exactly the same but obviously it can be done.

So convert - we are all aware of the problems. What should the solutions be?

Are we? I was responding to maxtorque who was using himself and his current use of an EV as an example of non problems. I was merely pointing out that his was a niche solution.

I don't think I have a solution, I suspect there will not be a single one. Which in a way might be a problem. An employer with parking but no charging that effectively can only be used by employees with their own driveways. A lot of slope shoulders thinking it's someone else's problem. My thoughts on previous pages have been a change of mindset about what we travel around in ultimately to reduce the energy needed to move them around in but also at the same time to reduce the footprint of the vehicles we are using when not really needed. Also probably we need to be realistic about how far/much we need to move.

[quote=igm ]Good question.

Good answer - not necessarily a complete solution, but better than bland assurances!

Have we done this article yet?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40715793

Aracer - agreed, no complete solutions yet, but there are some good people working on it. And me as well.

On the linked article, I shall be speaking (panel session as I recall) at the IMechE on the topic of electric buses in September - I know nothing about electric buses, but I do know about the connection implications. Buses appear to be the major culprits in UK urban air quality.

All the talk above about charging at home and range for general got me looking at my situation and what would be needed to make an EV viable for me. 2 issues come to mind:

I live in a rented block of flats on a private estate, We are not allowed to have EV charging points installed as the owner of a Tesla found out. As I commute to work and into town by bicycle I would need to use a charging point in a car park somewhere.

I regularly (2-3 times a month) do over 100 miles in a day, whether that's going to a biking spot or visiting friends/family. As I cannot guarantee being able to charge at my destination or at home - see above - then again I would have to charge en route.

Unless I move house, preferably into my own with offroad parking outside, and the range of EV's gets above 250 miles for a small car then they are not an option for me. I would love to get one as they are definitely the future but when my current car dies I'll most likely have to look at a hybrid, preferably a plug-in to give me maximum flexibility. That should see me to the 2040 deadline (10 years out of this car plus 10-15 out of the next) and the time to sort out the charging and range issues.

I live in a rented block of flats on a private estate, We are not allowed to have EV charging points installed as the owner of a Tesla found out

That's interesting. I may raise that with someone. It's quite possible that something could be done to make it impossible to refuse the installation if it's technically feasible. Possibly.

That should see me to the 2040 deadline (10 years out of this car plus 10-15 out of the next) and the time to sort out the charging and range issues.

You are correct. We don't need to sort all the issues tomorrow. We have a few years to address the difficult ones.

Hopefully fully autonomous cars will be sorted by 2040, so there won't be bellend driving which should reduce some of the consumption need. 🙂

5-10 years my contacts tell me. They may or met not be right.

these batteries then.. lithium..most of its in chile..and australia. batteries will last circa 5 years in a car..theres not enough lithium in the entire world to power the 60 million cars on the road in the uk for 15 years.. whats the rest of the world going to use..

I heard somewhere that if you're really caning it you can drop a Tesla's range down to 25/30 miles.

You'd have to do a continuous donnut to do that and the tyres would wear out before the battery went flat. About the worst thing you can do in an EV is drive continuously at max speed which in a Zoé is 135kmh. I don't think I could get Zoé below 160km range however hard I tried.

EVs learn about how you drive and calculate range according to how you've been driving recently. After a trip up to the mountains for a walk Zoé is currently showing 346km at 99% charge. The energy recovery downhill is impressive with a charge of 36kW under braking before the discs start to bite. About 3kWh recovered in a 1200m descent.

[url= https://gearjunkie.com/bollinger-b1-electric-truck ]They have even invented a Land Rover...[/url]

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totalshell - Member
these batteries then.. lithium..most of its in chile..and australia. batteries will last circa 5 years in a car..theres not enough lithium in the entire world to power the 60 million cars on the road in the uk for 15 years.. whats the rest of the world going to use..

I've wondered much the same.

Will capacitor technology improve by then? I was thinking it would help with a quick charge, although malfunctions could be quite "electrifying"...

In the 1930s they thought the same about oil, Epicyclo. If it's needed enough to make it expensive geologists will find it.

theres not enough lithium in the entire world to power the 60 million cars on the road in the uk for 15 years

If Wikipedia is to be believed, it's the 25th most common element on earth. There's lots of it, it's just a matter of whether it's commercially viable to extract it.

The total lithium content of seawater is very large and is estimated as 230 billion tonnes, where the element exists at a relatively constant concentration of 0.14 to 0.25 parts per million (ppm)

Edukator - Reformed Troll

I heard somewhere that if you're really caning it you can drop a Tesla's range down to 25/30 miles.

You'd have to do a continuous donnut to do that and the tyres would wear out before the battery went flat.

No that's obviously not true. Although it appears they will overheat and go into limp mode under hard acceleration which would probably make it difficult to completely drain the battery (unless you were deliberately trying) there seems to be plenty of evidence out there supporting what I've said.

Well do some calculations then to demonstrate it's possible to run a battery flat on a car with energy recuperation in 25miles/40km, Jimjam. Go ahead, my math say you can't.

Taking the Zoé as an example: 41kWh battery, motor 65kW. So with the motor flat out you get a run time of 40min. So the question is how do you average only 1km a minute and draw all 65kW?

A motorway, No. The Zoé draws 23KW at 130kmh so you're looking at 200km rather than 40.

If you accelerate and brake you'll be recovering energy all the time you're braking and there will be less aero drag as you are going slower, so it'll go further.

The only way to seriously waste energy is to use the handbrake. That'll soon overheat and fail unless the wheels are locked so you'll have to drive along with the rear wheels locked. Alternatively you can drive in such a tight circle you're scrubbing off energy with the tyres (hense my donnut suggestion).

Pikes Peak? A 1440m climb in 20km. Driving up wasting as much energy as possible you'd get through about 15kW (we're getting close to your objective at a 60km range). But then you have to turn around and it's all down hill and energy recovery.

Borrow one and try, but please don't try on the public road because even in the boring little Zoé using more than 25kW/100km will quickly lose you your license.

Edukator - Reformed Troll

Well do some calculations then to demonstrate it's possible to run a battery flat on a car with energy recuperation in 25miles/40km, Jimjam. Go ahead, my math say you can't.

Never mind your calculations, here's a video.

The Tesla goes from 88% to 59% in 8 minutes 50. Or to put it roughly, it loses about 10% every 3 minutes. Now of course, that's on track but it still shows that if you're absolutely caning it, you can flatten a Tesla battery in about 30 mintues.

Can we have an equivalent video of an equivalently fast petrol car please?

So?

What you're saying is that creating power to push a car along takes energy from the battery? Wow, you don't say.

Do the sums for something of similar performance, lets say a BMW M5. Those make around 600bhp, and around the ring will empty the tank in 3 laps, or, about 30min......

Difference of course is that without a bi-directional powertrain, the M5 wastes it's KE every time it needs to slow down, and so uses an enourmous amount more energy than the Tesla. How much?

Tesla with biggest available battery pack = 100 kWh
M5 - 70 litre fuel tank = 665 kWh (70L x 32.4 MJ/L)/3.6

So, you the Tesla is roughly, 6 times lower energy consumer than the M5!

totalshell - Member

these batteries then.. lithium..most of its in chile..and australia. batteries will last circa 5 years in a car..theres not enough lithium in the entire world to power the 60 million cars on the road in the uk for 15 years..

The batteries are 100% recyclable, it's just that it's more expensive than digging it up so right now we're not doing it- they're being stored instead awaiting Peak Lithium, or just reused into other applications (if you buy a cheap lipo or bike light on the internet there's a decent chance it's reconditioned and downrated- essentially like a retread)

(incidentally, Tesla's battery warranty is 8 years so presumably they don't think the lifespan is 5. There's quite a bit of degradation allowed before they consider it a warranty job though.)

maxtorque - Member

So?

My initial post was in resposne to someone stating the real world range of a Nissan Leaf (155 vs 90) and my query as to whether the difference in stated range and real world range was down to driving enthusiastically or not, using the Tesla as a known reference point. Edukator's post that one could only drain the battery on a Tesla by doing donuts for 30 minutes is clearly wrong, hence the video.

What you're saying is that creating power to push a car along takes energy from the battery? Wow, you don't say.

Are you making a conscious effort to appear condescending / confrontational or do you genuinely need help understanding the progression of the debate from one post to the other. I've helped you out here, if you need help understanding any other conversations or interactions between forum members just ask and I'll be only to happy to explain things for you.

Do the sums for something of similar performance, lets say a BMW M5. Those make around 600bhp, and around the ring will empty the tank in 3 laps, or, about 30min......

Costs aside, you can fill up the M5 completely in a minute or two and drive home though. I'm not against EVs at all but if we're to have a proper debate we all have to be honest about the current technologies and their limitations otherwise we're just picking sides and digging our trenches.

I suspect oil or leccy would acceptable if they where just transport and not willy waving?

For what it's worth I think EV manufacturers regard the life of a battery as being when it only holds 70-80% of the energy it did when new.
So an old car only doing 90 miles when a new one does 115 would be entirely to be expected.
What I don't know is whether age is measured in cycles or years. I do know that gentle cycling of the battery is better for it than leaving it to stand.

On the linked article, I shall be speaking (panel session as I recall) at the IMechE on the topic of electric buses in September - I know nothing about electric buses, but I do know about the connection implications. Buses appear to be the major culprits in UK urban air quality.

I was talking to someone from a DNO the other day who is working with one of the major cities looking at changing over all buses to electric, the network upgrades being discussed were staggering

you can flatten a Tesla battery in about 30 mintues.

Which is a lot more than 40km at those speeds. The speed is indicated. Your video proves my point, Jimjam. To halve that distance whilst still driving flat out he'd have to start doing donnuts. 40kms range as you claimed (which started this debate) is nonsense on your own evidence.

My claim of a 40mins minimum run time was for a Zoé not a Tesla.

I didnt say anything about range. I said I had heard that it was possible to flat the battery in 25 to 30 minutes which appears to be true.

I didnt say anything about range. I said I had heard that it was possible to flat the battery in 25 to 30 minutes which appears to be true.

So you're admitting your point is entirely irrelevant unless your normal car usage involves several laps of the Nurburgring followed by an immediate need to drive 200+ miles home?

. I said I had heard that it was possible to flat the battery in 25 to 30 minutes which appears to be true.

No you didn't, you said:

I heard somewhere that if you're really caning it you can drop a Tesla's range down to 25/30 miles.

Everyone one can read back and I copy-pasted when I quoed you.

This is another copy-paste from you:

I'm not against EVs at all but if we're to have a proper debate we all have to be honest

Which I absolutely agree with, now follow your own suggestion.

One potential solution to the charging time/lack of charging points problem and the limited battery life problem could involve a modular swappable battery pack system.

You would simply stop at a 'filling station' (existing ones could be converted) where your battery would be swapped in minutes then off you would go. Your 'old' battery would then go on charge. The only problem I can see would be the need for all manufacturers to agree a single standard which would place significant limitations on car design.

My point was initially a query . Car makers quote ideal condition mpg figures which can't be replicated in the real world.

I wonder if the 60 mile disparity in manufacturer stated range and real world range quoted by Nissan 're the Leaf is down to hyped up or made lab conditions or caused by lead footed drivers.

Tesla and their 350 mile range is obviously at the forefront of Ev technology but there's little or no point mentioning them if a real driver can't achieve anything like that range during normal driving.

Everyone one can read back and I copy-pasted when I quoed you.

[quote=Edukator ]Which is a lot more than 40km at those speeds. The speed is indicated.

It's easier than that. Nordschliefe Bridge to Gantry is 19.1km, Tesla uses 31% of capacity on that. Assuming everything is linear, that's 61.6km range. More than 48km, but not actually a huge difference (only 28% further).

40kms range as you claimed (which started this debate) is nonsense on your own evidence.

His original claim was 25/30 miles (40/48km), base on the Nordschleife video that's clearly not particularly nonsensical.

My claim of a 40mins minimum run time was for a Zoé not a Tesla.

I'm not sure what a Zoe has to do with it.

edit: ah - I see the minutes rather than miles update - clearly range could be less than 30 mins, but actually not much more than 30 miles either.

Jimjam, it's clear you hate EVs and are posting factually incorrect material with no source to argue against them. The Nurburgring vid shows that you have to drive in a manner totally inappropriate to public roads to get down to a range that would still get most people to work and back including shopping on the way home.

As for claimed range, I can get the range Renault claim really easily. I can even get the range claimed in the Euro test but that involves driving as per the test which is unrealistic unless you waant to annoy other road users (my aim is to drive sensibly within the law without being a mobile road block).

Anyhow, drive a Tesla, Zoé and i3 then get back to us... .

Jimjam is deliberately trying to mislead and you fell for it, Aracer - read back, and work out the distance covered by the Tesla in the vid while you're at it.

[quote=Edukator ]Jimjam is deliberately trying to mislead and you fell for it, Aracer - read back

I'm just posting factual information - somebody had to do the maths, I thought it might as well be me. I didn't fall for anything. I actually started doing the calcs expecting to prove you right...

Not even him deliberately changing miles to minutes between the last page and this page?

[quote=Edukator ]Not even him deliberately changing miles to minutes between the last page and this page?

That's pretty much irrelevant to my post, I'm just presenting facts (I know that's discouraged here), you can make of them what you will.

So how many kms do you reckon that Tesla did in 8 minutes 50, Aracer? More than 40kms in 30 minutes and Jimjam's 25-30 mile range claim is gorssly misleading (I'm being polite here), and that was his intention: to grossly mislead. To take a vid from a very fast race circuit and them quote a range somewhat less than the vid shows and then claim that's what you can get a Tesla down to is misleading.

gorssly misleading (I'm being polite here), and that was his intention: to grossly mislead.

Nope. My intention was initially a query. We all know manufacturers lie about the range and mpg of current cars and I wonder if discrepancies in theoretical range vs real world range were because of exaggerated manufacturer claims or driver enthusiasm.

I'm enjoying a few drinks while I watch the fights so I really can't get into figures, but I can see that even if I was trying to be gorssly misleading I wasn't actually too far off the mark any way you chose to frame it.

I would buy an EV tomorrow if it could compete with conventional cars on size, power, range, price etc.

[quote=Edukator ]So how many kms do you reckon that Tesla did in 8 minutes 50, Aracer?

19.1 😉

More than 40kms in 30 minutes

Yeah, ~65km, which is also a little bit more than 48km, though I note that the actual range in time when driving around there is ~28 minutes 30 seconds, in which time it would do 61.6km (I seem to have already mentioned that figure too...)

and that was his intention: to grossly mislead.

What is your intention in continually mentioning 40km rather than 48km?

To take a vid from a very fast race circuit and them quote a range somewhat less than the vid shows and then claim that's what you can get a Tesla down to is misleading.

somewhat is definitely a better word than grossly. Though I'm not sure what's misleading about using a fast race circuit as proof when it's quite clear he's using a fast race circuit as proof 😆

In case you're confused about my position here and haven't noticed the rest of my contributions, I'm not at all against EVs, but neither am I a fanboi. I'm not in the market for one, but that's mainly because they've not yet reached my level of bangernomics. Though for the sake of this side discussion that's irrelevant, I'm simply interested in the facts.

Thank you, Aracer.

We all know manufacturers lie about the range and mpg of current cars

They don't actually, Jimjam. You just have to drive a car smoothly and within speed limits to get the manufacturers figures or better where I live. We've averaged better than the manufacturer's claim in our petrol Lodgy over a four year period. I do a lot better, Madame isn't far off the oficila figures, and junior who hasn't long learned to drive does about 15% worse than the figures without breaking speed limit. He hasn't learned to anticipate and drive smmothly/economically yet.

Clearly if you hoof it or sit in a traffic jam all day you'll use more fuel than claimed.

Edukator - Reformed Troll

They don't actually, Jimjam. You just have to drive a car smoothly and within speed limits to get the manufacturers figures or better where I live. We've averaged better than the manufacturer's claim in our petrol Lodgy over a four year period. I do a lot better, Madame isn't far off the oficila figures, and junior who hasn't long learned to drive does about 15% worse than the figures without breaking speed limit. He hasn't learned to anticipate and drive smmothly/economically yet.

Clearly if you hoof it or sit in a traffic jam all day you'll use more fuel than claimed.

Well there's no doubt in my mind that you and your wife are incredible drivers but not everyone is blessed with such talent. They might also have to contend with hills, twisty roads, passengers and or luggage of some description, non standard tyres, deviations in pressure, adverse weather conditions, short journeys, air con etc etc etc. But I suppose the point is that most people (to varying degrees) understand that the stated range / mpg of a conventional car is almost within reach under the right circumstances.

With EV's having discrepancies between stated and real world range of 40 or 50% potential customers don't know whether the upper range is ever attainable and with the current infrastructure that's a much bigger problem in an EV than a petrol or diesel (or hybrid).