…you forgot sound and visceral experience.
I didn’t. My car will provide me with a suite of fake engine sounds (just like a petrol BMW M3 does) to suit every mood including a Starship Enterprise warp drive effect which makes me giggle every single time. Mostly I turn them off though because the silence is better. I’ve lost count of the times I’ve wished I could make a diesel engine silent with the push of a button
As for visceral experience, most EV’s are pant-shittingly, organ rearrangingly quick. It’s plenty visceral if you want it to be and instantly at that. Crucially though you also have the default option of serenity which I much prefer.
The technology gives you a suite of choices that ICE cars just don’t.
As for visceral experience, most EV’s are pant-shittingly, organ rearrangingly quick.
It's not all about speed though. Speed is easy nowadays in any modern ICE car, you can easily sit at 90 cocooned in smooth efficiency. Not what I want in a car.
And fake is just that - you switch it off because you know it's fake.
And I don't want choices - I know I'm a luddite on this but banks of screens with every option under the sun does nothing for me.
But it's personal and I can see why people like them.
I’m surprised (gob smacked even) that a decent spec Fabia is so much cheaper to insure than a single motor Ioniq
Why's that ? Head in the sand. It's very very widely reported that EVs are being scrapped for notional damage regularly due to fear of damage to batteries or battery replacement is part of the repair and it's written off.
Even for me a driver of 20 years with full NCB in a quiet area ev insurance is ludicrous even considering ice car costs have nearly doubled in the last 18 months - if I bought the same vehicle in EV mode which I've come close to but the sums didn't add up - I was going to be doubling my insurance costs again.
The kids have no chance.
And I don’t want choices
That, in itself, is a choice.
I choose choice
I can get 600 miles on a tank with my 1.2l engine and achieve over 50mpg. The car is shaped like a box too. When EV’s can achieve the same I’ll consider switching. The tax is not a factor for me. Still cheaper to keep my current car.
Is it really cheaper when you factor in servicing? Maybe. Depends on how many miles you drive I think. As I mentioned above I've run the numbers a few times for my old(ish) ICE car and I think I'm now convinced than a second hand EV would save me a bit of cash and be better for the environment, although I've still not done it.
Your comment highlights a big hurdle for EVs though. They are not the same as ICE cars. Better in some ways and worse in others, but not the same. The problem is that ICE drivers (me included) keep pointing to some advantage of ICE and saying "I'll get an EV when it can do this".
I can get 600 miles on a tank with my 1.2l engine and achieve over 50mpg.
How many times would you stop in that 600 miles?
I can do 200 miles, stop for less than 20 minutes, do another 200 miles, stop for another 20 minutes and then do 200 miles again . For the equivalent of about 130-ish MPG.
Unless you’re continually driving more than 200 miles at a time without taking a break , eating or peeing?
I can get 600 miles on a tank with my 1.2l engine and achieve over 50mpg
So can I.
But I rarely do more than 300 miles - maybe every other month a journey of 240-270miles to see family.
I can get 600 miles on a tank with my 1.2l engine and achieve over 50mpg. The car is shaped like a box too. When EV’s can achieve the same I’ll consider switching
50mpg is about 13p a mile, my car costs me about 1.8p a mile, so I wouldn't be too proud of that. As for the 600 miles - meh. You can stop and recharge EVs. People who've never done it seem to think it's some kind of horrible ordeal.
As for insurance - that's a cluster-**** currently, but it will clearly have to change. However the renewal for my EV has gone down from £800 to £500 this year.
Yes. To buy the EV version of my car would cost over £30k new. Maybe 25k a few years old. And they only have a range of 250 miles. I could sell my car for about 14k. So I'd need to find 21k just to switch without finance. 21k is many many years of ICE servicing. Lus, even though a seevice on an EV might be slightly cheaper we can expect the costs to go up when the majority of cars are EV. Then the cost of replacement batteries where there will inevitably be a shortage.
EVs are city cars for city lifestyles and city incomes.
Dealers will find creative ways of fleecing you for EV servicing - that's their bread and butter money spinner, not car sales.
So I’d need to find 21k just to switch without finance
Your maths is off - £25k minus £14k is £11k. And you'd be upgrading to a newer car which would cost money even if you went with an ICE, so you're employing creative accounting here. But anyway - no-one's telling you to sell your ICE now. We're saying next time you need a new car, get an EV.
Dealers will find creative ways of fleecing you for EV servicing
Major service from the dealer is £140 for me, £75 for a minor. And nothing actually gets done on the minor, so you could absoutely ignore it - you are only paying for a stamp. The only expensive one is £500 for a complex coolant flush every 60k I think.
Ah yes high capex ignored in quest of low opex.
My car was £12k, not an outrageous sum for a 4 year old car is it? We borrowed the money, so it comes under opex, and it was much cheaper than an equivalent spec/quality ICE.
I can get 600 miles on a tank with my 1.2l engine and achieve over 50mpg. The car is shaped like a box too. When EV’s can achieve the same I’ll consider switching. The tax is not a factor for me. Still cheaper to keep my current car.
Fantastic - jog on, then.
Major service from the dealer is £140 for me, £75 for a minor.
What about all the other stuff attached to the car? Do those things not break?
I should perhaps amend my sentence to...
[i]Dealers will find creative ways of fleecing you for EV maintenance[/i]
..they are like bookies - they won't lose out.
I can get 600 miles on a tank with my 1.2l engine and achieve over 50mpg. The car is shaped like a box too. When EV’s can achieve the same I’ll consider switching. The tax is not a factor for me. Still cheaper to keep my current car.
No, you can't. 600 miles at 50mpg is 12 gallons, or 54.5 litres. The tank capacity in a Skoda Fabia is 45 litres...
It's fascinating how deep people will dig to support their paranoid conspiracy-theorist led anti-EV bullshit propaganda.
grimepFree Member
EVs are city cars for city lifestyles and city incomes.
Myopic bollocks.
He did say over. He didn't say how far.
My 1.2 petrol does 65mpg
Wait, @mjsmke's car is a Fabia?
You can get a brand new E208 for £18k, or a 2020 Kona EV with 280 miles of range for £12,699. Shit the bed that's a good deal. A few quid more than my car, more range and faster charging. And lower miles. Bastard.
Meanwhile a 2020 Fabia 1.0 TSI with similar miles is £8.5k. So a £4k upgrade. That wouldn't take long to pay back, if you can charge at home that is. The one good (current) argument against EV ownership and they didn't mention it.
Fairly certain he has a Berlingo/partner but flaperon seems to know better.
To buy the EV version of my car would cost over £30k new. Maybe 25k a few years old.
I'd be interested to know what EV has depreciated by such a small amount. Most that I've looked at seem to be nearer to 50% of new price after only a few years and not many miles.
What about all the other stuff attached to the car? Do those things not break?
Yes - but you said servicing. But there's far less stuff to break. Of all the things I've had to pay for over the years, only a couple of them are present on an EV.
I’d be interested to know what EV has depreciated by such a small amount. Most that I’ve looked at seem to be nearer to 50% of new price after only a few years and not many miles.
Yeah, 16% depreciation from new in 3 years is clearly not feasible.
Go look at the price of comparable spec e-rifters Vs new . Of course not ignoring milage. Comparing Cheap 3yo cars with high miles are not comparable to average milage vehicles.
WRT EV repairs, one of the things which is starting to show up for EVs are motor bearing repairs. When the bearings start to go, it affects regen more than acceleration performance (don't ask me why, I don't know), and whilst they're a fairly cheap part, they're difficult to access and the motor, once repaired, must be VERY carefully aligned during re-installation. The guys I spoke to at BMW said they have a special bench rig to do this for the I series. It turns £70-100 of parts into a £1500 job. I'm not sure many bearings on an ICE have the same type of loads - conrod bearings might be the closest thing, but the forces are smaller.
EVs are city cars for city lifestyles and city incomes.
Probably the exact opposite long term. Home charging for most city dwellers just isn't an option. Where as if you're lucky enough to live out in the sticks, home charging, and even home energy generation, is more likely to be a realistic proposition. You're more likely to need a car as well.
this is an EV charging thread – move on.
Wrong thread
Probably the exact opposite long term. Home charging for most city dwellers just isn’t an option. Where as if you’re lucky enough to live out in the sticks, home charging, and even home energy generation, is more likely to be a realistic proposition. You’re more likely to need a car as well.
This - there is no way I could have a EV. simply not feasible due to lack of charging options. I live in an attic flat with no designated parking. There is a public paid for charging station near me - but its 4 hours max so the car would need to be moved on and off it. Parking is at a premium anyway with all parking being paid for.
City car club type schemes for cities is the answer IMO - with small light cars. Our local scheme is getting some electric vehicles
While I am against EVs as a distraction from the real action needed as vehicles they work well.
Wrong thread
Yeah - I noticed later, but the sentiment is still the same.
"Your maths is off – £25k minus £14k is £11k. And you’d be upgrading to a newer car which would cost money even if you went with an ICE, so you’re employing creative accounting here. But anyway – no-one’s telling you to sell your ICE now. We’re saying next time you need a new car, get an EV."
Ah maths error! My bad. Still, 11k is a lot of money for a car with less than half the range of my current one. If i needed to replace my car now it will be another ICE without hesitation. Maybe in the future if/when EV cars are more suitable, i might.
I know there's a lot of arguments about it, but i'm guessing most folk are like me, if they could afford an EV, charging point at home and solar panels they they'd do it tomorrow, i love EVs, they look good, have all the benefits of being functionally better at doing automotive duties, ICE cars are pretty inefficient at what they do, partly through the complexity of modern cars, and partly due to emissions control adding nugatory systems that are designed to fail.
One day i'll get one, but until then i'll have to just suffer using ICE cars, am i jealous others can get them through schemes, tax breaks, etc, not really, as that'll increase sales, which will hopefully reduce costs over the years, hopefully the Chinese cheaper EVs break in as well and start pushing starting prices down!
Why do you need to drive 600 miles without a recharge? Serious question. I'm planning a potential 600 mile trip in my EV now.
11k is a lot of money for a car with less than half the range of my current one.
The Kona I found is only £12.5k all in. But yes - I have a diesel and I have promised myself I won't buy another. So I will keep it until I can afford an EV that can tow to replace it.
TJ you are dead right about the charging - it's the major issue right now. It is being worked on although slowly. But it'll have to change in the future.
Re bearings some of the older Ioniqs (28kWh) have had this. There is a video of someone changing them on a 180k mile car. There are only two, and it's the same skills and tools as a gearbox rebuild but obviously far simpler!
600 miles is 8.5h driving at motorway speeds, 10h anywhere else assuming you're not held up. You're not doing that without a break and to be honest if you aren't you shouldn't.
If I'm driving for work they require 15 minutes break every 2 hours, in my ID4 I can drive pretty much indefinitely on that basis. Even just driving normally it's rare that the charging is the limiting factor in how long we stop on a journey and I certainly need to stop before the car needs a charge.
I just looked at a 650 mile trip in my EV which is really slow charging, just about the slowest out there. It would have taken 9hrs of driving and 2h35 or charging or something like that. I am pretty sure I'd have stopped at least 1.5hrs if I were driving a diesel, just to stop for lunch and coffee. So an hour extra on an all day drive? I can absolutely live with that, and so can you. If I had one of the fastest charging cars I would have spent more time stopped than the car needed.
Go look at the price of comparable spec e-rifters Vs new . Of course not ignoring milage. Comparing Cheap 3yo cars with high miles are not comparable to average milage vehicles.
well e-rifters are pretty rare (6 for sale) but the vauxhall version isn't. 2 years old, 5,000 miles, £17k.
a diesel combo of the same age and milage is, err.. £21k
I wouldn't get one as they're awful EVs, but they're not expensive.
but i’m guessing most folk are like me, if they could afford an EV, charging point at home and solar panels they they’d do it tomorrow
That's one of the issue for me. These tax breaks for EVs are tax breaks for the rich. They aren't big enough to make these cars affordable for all.
The five figure purchase prices that people stating may be a bargain but they are way beyond the reach of many.
That’s one of the issue for me. These tax breaks for EVs are tax breaks for the rich. They aren’t big enough to make these cars affordable for all.The five figure purchase prices that people stating may be a bargain but they are way beyond the reach of many.
I don't really have an issue with that. EVs are fundimentally expensive things, so you can't really target folks without much money as they don't buy new cars at all. What you can do is impact the people who do buy new cars, changing their behavior so the overall fleet in 10 years time is significantly different to how it looks today.
the current VED rates aren't really a tax break for the rich anyway - my £4k 7 seater, a car affordable for the majority, is in the £20 tax band, the £20 saving on a car depreciating £10k a year isn't really relevent
They aren’t big enough to make these cars affordable for all.
Well it's not really the tax situation except the BIK part. The real issue is that there aren't cheap EVs made that are much good. But they are definitely being developed. Once the higher end higher profit market cools down they will start fighting over the small cheap(er) car market. There's a VW iD2 and a Kia EV3 out soon. At first they won't be cheap because they will be after the people with more money, but they will become cheaper.
"Ah maths error! My bad. Still, 11k is a lot of money for a car with less than half the range of my current one. If i needed to replace my car now it will be another ICE without hesitation. Maybe in the future if/when EV cars are more suitable, i might."
If you're regularly doing 400+ miles without a break, I reckon those use cases are marginal enough that your ideal EV may not exist for decades. Faster charging and lighter batteries will. Benchmark WLTP seems to have gone from 200 to 300 to 400 miles over about 5 years. But what's the point of more than that commercially? Charging infrastructure is massively improved for the occasional long hops and most charging is done at home which is far easier than visiting a petrol station a few times a month.
I agree Rich. It makes no sense to stuff cars with 600 miles worth of batteries when most of them are only going to be doing 20 miles at most a day. It's a waste of resources for the battery and a waste of energy carting it about. Just stop for 15 mins in the middle of your journey. Ideally, there'll be enough rapid chargers in enough locations that there'll always be one.
a diesel combo of the same age and milage is, err.. £21k
I mean other than it being a higher spec and a 7 seater i guess its vaguely similar if you a handstand and squint to try and make a point.
With a 174mile published range I can see why there are many more vauxhall e combos are for sale. Bit crap ain't they.
