[Closed] No more Boys and Girls

Disagreeing with someone doesn't make their opinions invalid sadly. And pretty much every post here is just opinion.

makecoldplayhistory - Member

Boys tend to have better spacial awareness and this benefits them in subjects like engineering. They tend to perform better under pressure or in different types of subjects. Speaking to the Head of Science, average boys do Physics as they learn a handful of formulas and can use them appropriately, average girls do biology as a conscientious student can learn the info.

You didn't watch the show, then?!
This was one of the points they were trying to make.

Spatial awareness can be practiced and improved....the brain responds to spatial awareness type activities and gets better at it....
So give girls dollies and tea sets to play with and their spatial awareness doesn't improve.
Give boys Lego, cars and Minecraft and it does....

When they become adults, the men are good at spatial awareness and the women aren't.....Hmmm, I wonder why?

Disagreeing with someone doesn't make their opinions invalid sadly. And pretty much every post here is just opinion.

The opinions are generally backed up with further statements, anecdotes or facts.

Ah ok, maybe I'm reading a different discussion to you. My apologies.

Anyone care to offer any good suggestions/resources for countering gender stereotyping in young children?

For my daughters I have found http://www.amightygirl.com/ to be very useful in offering inspiring books etc, such as my daughter's current favourite:

[url= http://amzn.eu/etguAUc ]Good Night Stories for Rebel Girls

[img] [/img][/url]
100 single page biographies of notable women in science, tech, politics, sport, entertainment, endeavour etc. All written as accessible stories for 7+.

Something a lot of boys could do with reading too!

The [url= https://www.facebook.com/amightygirl/ ]Mighty Girl facebook feed[/url] is really good too.

Anyone care to offer any good suggestions/resources for countering gender stereotyping in young children?

We had a story book about different fish where the dads took a more active role in birthing or caring for babies that humans stereotypically do.

Found it: [url= https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/Books/Mister-Seahorse-World-Eric-Carle/0399254900 ]Mr Seahorse by Eric Carle[/url]

Something a lot of boys could do with reading too!

There seems to be a lot of stuff aimed at countering gender-bias for girls, but not so much for boys.

Ah ok, maybe I'm reading a different discussion to you. My apologies.

Look for the posts that are more than one or two lines long.

There seems to be a lot of stuff aimed at countering gender-bias for girls, but not so much for boys.

Unfortunately society is very gender biased from birth.

Just look at most nursery rhymes, childrens songs, those which are repeated from birth.

Three little monkeys bouncing on the bed (being naughty, active)
One fell off and banged HIS head.
MUMMY called the doctor and the doctor said...

Got some really strange looks when I sang loudly (and badly) HER and DADDY in the playgroup!

Nearly every song, story and fairly tale has gender bais in built, so no wonder 7 year olds are so 'wired' to be gender biased, only for teachers to perpetuate it by claiming that 'thats the way it is'

all that pink, fluffy, glittery, unicorns and rainbows bollocks isn't allowed in my house. either for boys or girls.

There's a world of difference between boys playing with dolls or girls playing with action men versus deliberately refusing to refer to your child by the traditional gender terms and getting all angry at anyone that "assumes" their gender

There's a world of difference between boys playing with dolls or girls playing with action men versus deliberately refusing to refer to your child by the traditional gender terms and getting all angry at anyone that "assumes" their gender

And this thread is about the former.

Brakes...totally agree. I'm going purple constantly telling the family not to buy the girl pink things.

The girl is 7 months old and absolutely cleaner and tidier than her brother was at that age. Is that societies fault?

Anyone care to offer any good suggestions/resources for countering gender stereotyping in young children?

Well, my 7yo daughter has watched this show 3 times now 😀

The "brain difference" thing. What some people think, to paraphrase, is that the hardware might be the same but the software's different. There are no visible differences in the brains, so they must be subtle differences in how the brains work.

But they then don't go the extra, and wonder [u]why[/u] there might be differences in the software. Something produces those differences, and we know the brain is very plastic at birth, early experiences can have a massive effect on later personality for instance.

There may well be differences between male and female brains, but those differences might well be caused by how those children were treated.

I'm going purple constantly telling the family not to buy the girl pink things.

You should go a more gender neutral colour. Like grey.

Purple's a bit girly.

The girl is 7 months old and absolutely cleaner and tidier than her brother was at that age. Is that societies fault?

You have two kids who are different, that's all. My eldest daughter is tidier than my youngest daughter. I'm tidier than my wife.

I don't think STW provides a national average sample of women though.

Nevertheless we ARE WOMEN!!

Yeah but we don't count, vickypea. Best get back to the cooking and cleaning and leave the politics to those with the brains to handle it. 🙄

Rachel

Why this obsession with trying to force kids not to wear pink? There was some women's group a while back trying to force women not to wear the colour, but shirley it's up to the individual, not for anyone else to decide?
Much is being made about allowing children to behave and dress how [i]they[/i] want, but then people are saying pink is to be actively discouraged; isn't that hypocritical? I'd really like someone to try telling my sis-in-law that she shouldn't wear pink, she's an anaesthetist, and a biker, has her bike painted pink with a broomstick riding witch on the tank, wears pink along with her leathers and Ogri club gear, and would give a blistering response to anyone stupid enough to comment on the colour.
It's [i]her[/i] choice, as it should be for any child to wear what they want.

I don't think STW provides a national average sample of women though.

Nor men 😉

Why this obsession with trying to force kids not to wear pink?

It's not about forcing, it's about showing them they don't have to. Daughter was obsessed with pink for a while. Then purple. Then red. Then green.

Getting her to like things because she likes them, not because she thinks she should like them.

The girl is 7 months old and absolutely cleaner and tidier than her brother was at that age. Is that societies fault?

It [i]could[/i] be.

What role model does she have at home? Does she see her mum doing the tidying up or dad or both? (Assuming mixed-sex parents natch). What about her peers at nursery/childcare etc?

Alternatively it could just be an [i]individual[/i] difference that you simply view through the prism of gender.

Good Women make better Men.

Getting her to like things because she likes them, not because she thinks she should like them.

Exactly.

The "pink" thing is a symptom of a wider issue. Go try to buy clothes for girls and you are bombarded by pink and princesses, fairies, unicorns, pretty impractical dresses, sequins and frills.

Which is [i]fine[/i] by itself but it screams: "This is what little girls wear."

Try buying them something they can actually run around, play, and get muddy in and you'll find the range a lot more limited, especially compared to the boys department.

The girl is 7 months old and absolutely cleaner and tidier than her brother was at that age. Is that societies fault?

No it's just chance.

She's clean and tidy because she's a clean and tidy person NOT because she's a girl. This is the key point.

My wife is messy as hell. So am I. And both my kids. They are both girls.

Alternatively it could just be an individual difference that you simply view through the prism of gender.

Bingo.

She's 7 months old Graham. It's a comment about her toilet habits!!!

Pink...I just think it's an awful colour and think my baby looks much nicer dressed in a mix of things such as turquoise, grey, green, blue etc. She gets a lot of "aaw he's adorable " comments.

I wonder how this discussion would go if it was over on [url= http://www.makeuptalk.com/f/ ]http://www.makeuptalk.com/f/[/url]
Or
[url= http://discussion.femalefirst.co.uk/index.php?sid=1db983bc7ce81ff51dfd14f04659c144 ]http://discussion.femalefirst.co.uk/index.php?sid=1db983bc7ce81ff51dfd14f04659c144[/url]

She's 7 months old Graham. It's a comment about her toilet habits!!!

Same question then, has she ever seen mummy shit herself? 😉

"Yeah but we don't count, vickypea. Best get back to the cooking and cleaning and leave the politics to those with the brains to handle it."

Come one Rachel. That comment may well be applicable elsewhere in society but not to anyone on this thread. Cheap shot!

miketually - I'm a shocking mathematician / statistician (although, as an average boy, was reasonable at mechanics where a few formulas are applied to visualisable situations). Perhaps these girls are unusual. Being the highest achievers would suggest so. Boys are usually the highest achievers though, as well as the under-achievers. Girls are far more likely to take the middle ground but AEN children (my area) and G&T are usually boys. The area of the brain which when enlarged correlates with autism is usually larger in boys.

There are all sorts of markers which suggest boys do do better in some subjects than others. Obviously brain plasticity, especially in the first year or two of life throws a spanner in the works but I tend to believe in innate differences. Don't you?

I always have a little laugh to myself when 'educated' people start waffling on about stereotypes and trying to buck the trend. If you look enough you find them herding their kids down the very channels they are so desperately trying to avoid. Free spirit. Aye, ok. Funny how that free spirit is taking them down exactly the route the parents want them to take.

Take for example the climbing world which my daughter is active in. TBH it is the same for MTB too. You go to a climbing wall or rock face and everyone is cooler than a cool thing in their baggy trousers, vests and whatever other regalia they choose. It all tends to fit a certain, unwashed and not to bothered about appearance look.

Then look at their kids. They are mini-me in every way. Even talking the same way about being born to climb and shite like that.

I have a daughter who likes a bit of sparkle. She loves to be able to wear lycra at the wall because its comfortable and if its a comp she even makes her mum do her hair in special designs. Why, because she likes it. She stands out like a sore thumb at the wall with the other kids who are really just being herded down the route their parents have pre designed for them. I am not denying I like my little girl being a girly girl but tbh she is more boy in some of her mannersims than my son. At the end of the day she is what she is but I think its sad that we start removing the beautiful aspects that make boys and girls different just to appease these people who want to rub out any biological differences which are, in my eyes to be celebrated

Is that a post generalising about generalisation? Sweet!

I think its sad that we start removing the beautiful aspects that make boys and girls different just to appease these people who want to rub out any biological differences which are, in my eyes to be celebrated

That's really not what the thread is about.

I tend to believe in innate differences. Don't you?

There might be. There might be a strong statistical correlation between gender and any particular trait. But that does not mean you can start assuming any particular individual has a trait because of their gender, and it certainly does not mean you can indoctrinate individuals to behave a particular way just because of their gender!

No molgrips, its a post highlighting that even those trying so desperately to instill individualism (Whatever that is)and choice into their offspring tend towards an all to obvious 'uniform'. Is this any worse than letting a girl wear a t shirt saying "pretty princess" or a boy to wear one with "naughty boy" on it?

Sorry if my post didn't fit in with your schedule but I didn't realise you chose what the thread was about.

Er well ok but it is off topic, I was just pointing that out.

Also seemed to be a bit vitriolic at people who are simply being human, but if that's how you want to express yourself then who am I to criticise? 🙂

No molgrips, its a post highlighting that even those trying so desperately to instill individualism (Whatever that is)and choice into their offspring tend towards an all to obvious 'uniform'. Is this any worse than letting a girl wear a t shirt saying "pretty princess" or a boy to wear one with "naughty boy" on it?

I'm going with Yes.

Because if we want our daughter to be outdoorsy and like camping and climbing and learning to weld, then it's just us leading her that way. But if we were dressing her up in frills and telling her to be pretty and keep quiet, it's not just us leading her that way, it's all of society as well.

And what are people who give their daughters a doll and their boys lego being? Are they being any less human? I looked at your post of 4hrs ago and if that isn't a post trying to control with words like MUST & MUST NOT then I don't know what is.

I have a little girl who is a very girly girl. Loves to go shopping with her mum. Buys sparkles, gets her nails done. Will sit for hours doing her hair etc etc. She also delights in being stronger and more physically able than just about every boy of her age.

Girls and boys can be anything they want to be but there is no shame in parenting them in the traditional manner

Because if we want our daughter to be outdoorsy and like camping and climbing and learning to weld, then it's just us leading her that way

How can it be ok to push a daughter into being 'outdoorsy' but not ok to push a daughter into being 'girly'. Just because the majority of society chooses to do it doesn't make it automatically wrong.

From what I have seen, most people tend towards the route of least resistance. If the family is outdoorsy, then that what they push their offspring towards. Nothing wrong with that. But don't diss those that don't choose that path

because historically being girly has placed societal limitations on someone and exposed them to prejudice and discrimination, being outdoorsy hasn't.

+10 TheLittlestHobo. You've said very clearly the feeling I've tried to convey during quick van breaks at work 🙂

I reckon a world where male and female meet in the middle could be the subject for the next Black Mirror episode.

Brakes, do you really feel that is the case going forward. With a young son & daughter I actually tend towards feeling my son is being held back.

My daughter, as pointed out in someone else post has the enviable position of being whatever the heck she wants to be. Girly girl, active girl, intelligent girl, beautiful girl, strong girl, nasty girl, angry girl. Whatever she wants to be.

My son has to look at society and wonder if he is being PC enough not to offend half the population if he decides he wants to express any kind of feelings. My lads a sensitive lad and tbh completely different to me and for that I am very proud. I will encourage him to be whatever he wants to be but I will also encourage him to stand up for being a male because, I know its not popular these days to say it, but there is nothing wrong with being MALE.

I know its not popular these days to say it, but there is nothing wrong with being MALE.

No, that is just Daily Mailism.

No-one's said there is anything wrong with it. People are correctly calling out endemic poor behaviour from many men after centuries of not even recognising it. But if you don't behave badly, then you're not doing anything wrong.

I teach my kids to look at their own behaviour all the time. And they aren't even boys. I'd do the same with a boy.

I teach my kids to look at their own behaviour all the time. And they aren't even boys. I'd do the same with a boy.

Why is it daily mailism?

I honestly feel that my daughter gets so much more opportunities to express herself. But if a boy tries to be himself he is constantly second guessing wether it fits in with the way his parents, teachers, society wants him to act.

Don't get me started on how nasty and manipulative girls can be.

How is it endemic behaviour when you refer to centuries. This programme related to the now and in my eyes, there isn't so much wrong in general with being a female in 2017

miketually - I'm a shocking mathematician / statistician (although, as an average boy, was reasonable at mechanics where a few formulas are applied to visualisable situations).

As an average boy, or as someone who was given 'boy' toys as a kid and treated how boys are treated?

Perhaps these girls are unusual. Being the highest achievers would suggest so. Boys are usually the highest achievers though, as well as the under-achievers.

I thought girls were more likely to get better academic results these days?

Girls are far more likely to take the middle ground but AEN children (my area) and G&T are usually boys. The area of the brain which when enlarged correlates with autism is usually larger in boys.

Not my area, but aren't we currently realising that ASD is under-diagnosed in girls, and actually the numbers are similar as for boys?

There are all sorts of markers which suggest boys do do better in some subjects than others. Obviously brain plasticity, especially in the first year or two of life throws a spanner in the works but I tend to believe in innate differences. Don't you?

Clearly I don't.

Well I am getting hope from a lot of the comments that things will hopefully change for the better over time just perhaps more slowly than I would hope.

I dont feel I've had a raw deal in life but then I did have very liberal parents who certainly pushed back against gender stereo typing. Even so when I was younger I desperately wanted to be a boy because I enjoyed doing the things that society deemed boyish. I didnt want to wear dresses and have long hair as I liked riding bikes and climbing trees. Luckily my parents helped me see that I could do all those things as a girl and that gave me the courage to go into a very male dominated career. I'm speaking from the perspective of a woman who likes to do more traditionally male things but the same goes for men who would prefer to do more traditionally female things. I hope both genders get the opportunities to just be who they want to be without feeling out of place.

miketually - ASD does appear to be underdiagnosed in girls but not nearly approaching male figures. 'Girl' results depend on assessment methods more than anything else. The fairest way to assess learning is a different argument altogether.

I always have a little laugh to myself when 'educated' people start waffling on about stereotypes and trying to buck the trend. If you look enough you find them herding their kids down the very channels they are so desperately trying to avoid. Free spirit. Aye, ok. Funny how that free spirit is taking them down exactly the route the parents want them to take.

That's quite a generalisation you're making. My parents were quite stereotypical male and female and didn't push me in any direction, they let me choose. Similarly I haven't pushed my kids in any way. I'm very outdoorsy and into my biking but my youngest child is very different.

in my eyes, there isn't so much wrong in general with being a female in 2017

Aye, the purpose of the current discussion is to try and show you that your eyes aren't seeing everything.

Because if we want our daughter to be outdoorsy and like camping and climbing and learning to weld, then it's just us leading her that way. But if we were dressing her up in frills and telling her to be pretty and keep quiet, it's not just us leading her that way, it's all of society as well

Haha you're stereotyping, why can't a pretty girl who likes frills not be a good welder? And the 'be quiet' suggestion just displays your own skewed expectations rather than all of society's.

there is nothing wrong with being MALE.

Of course there isn't. No one is suggesting there is are they? In fact Cougar rightly pointed out that societal pressures swing both ways: boys are told they shouldn't cry, that looking after babies is "girly", that being interested in fashion, hairdressing, dance, nursing, glitter and unicorns is "girly". They face a deep history of societal norms too.

there isn't so much wrong in general with being a female in 2017

How many times has your son told you that "boys can't do that" or that "girls are better than boys"?

Because I hear the inverse regularly from my 7yo daughter and her peers. 🙁

How can it be ok to push a daughter into being 'outdoorsy' but not ok to push a daughter into being 'girly'. Just because the majority of society chooses to do it doesn't make it automatically wrong.

It's not ok to push one into anything, rather it's laudable to expose and encourage a daughter that she can be either or both of those things. The disparity comes from society which expects the latter, which means more effort needs to be made in asserting the former.

ASD does appear to be underdiagnosed in girls but not nearly approaching male figures.

ASD is absolutely [i]poorly understood[/i] in girls, because the vast amount of ASD research focuses on male ASD and females present differently. If it's under-diagnosed in females it's almost certainly because we're holding them up against what we know from research about males.

So many people commenting on a thread about a TV programme without watching it, understanding what the experiment was trying to do, or seeing the outcomes. 🙄

Surely it's more constructive to be discussing the subject rather than whining about how we're discussing it incorrectly?

Some fairly reasonable responses there.

However to counter some of the comments I recived.

vickypea - Yes its quite a generalisation. Same as this tv programme and this thread generalising that somehow modern parenting is pushing our kids in the wrong direction just because it doesn't suit the minorities opinion (We surely are agreed that the majority parent in the traditional manner). I accept my generalisation, but stand by it. Go to any Mtb event and look through this website and you will see families with Mini Me's in abundance. How many kids of biking parents get forced into pleasing mummy & daddy by showing false interest in bikes. How many climbers clothe their kids in climbing 'uniform' etc etc. Just because its not sparkles and guns doesn't make it any different.

molgrips - once again preaching that others must see what you see. I watched the programme and gave my opinions. What you see doesn't have to be what I have to see.

Graham S - To take that further, what about the boy who is inherently 'boyish'. In my eyes these traits are being stifled. What about a boy who doesn't want to cry or play with dolls. He wants to fight and play with guns. Wants to shout and let out energy. These boys get labled with attention disorders and forced to sit in corners. I go back to my comment about parenting of least resistance. Most parents will take the path that suits them most and fits in with their current lifestyle. It just seems that the liberals who steer their kids in whatever direction they choose are getting all vocal. Beware what you wish for. With regards to your daughter. In my eyes you are letting her down if you have heard her say that. I would never say boys are better or girls are better at anything. My daughter wouldn't have a second thought about challenging any boy who said they were better than her. My son would probably agree with you Graham and I encourage him to have his opinions but I would encourage him to be confident in himself and not put himself down.

Cougar - Why? Just because there is a disparity means we should overcompensate. Whats wrong with the balance we have now? Again, be careful what we wish for

Cougar - Why? Just because there is a disparity means we should overcompensate. Whats wrong with the balance we have now? Again, be careful what we wish for

Why? Because the balance we have now is causing things such as the "[url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google%27s_Ideological_Echo_Chamber ]Google Memo[/url]". The balance is wrong. But then, being on the "lucky side" of the balance, maybe you can't so easily see what is wrong with it?

Rachel

I would never say boys are better or girls are better at anything

in that case, why are women less likely to earn high salaries and less likely to get into senior job positions? Either women are less smart and/or less hardworking, or there is some kind of societal bias that needs to be addressed. (or not addressed, if you're happy with 'the balance we have now' I suppose) But you can't have it both ways.

there is some kind of societal bias that needs to be addressed

That's kind of the point, isn't it?

yes exactly. perhaps I misinterpreted, but I thought TheLittlestHobo was trying to present two contradictory positions...

I would never say boys are better or girls are better at anything

Whats wrong with the balance we have now?

I think this is the crux of the matter. Some people don't see a problem, generally those who benefit. Those who don't do see a problem and would like to change things so that the benefits and concurrent costs are equal.

Feminism, antiracism (etc.) 101 isn't it?

that at the moment the fastest person in the world is a man but there could be a time when the fastest person is a woman.

In the longer distance races the difference is decreasing quite quickly apparently. Looking forward to mixed professional football* now!

*Actually, that's rubbish I don't like football.

but there could be a time when the fastest person is a woman

how so?

somehow modern parenting is pushing our kids in the wrong direction just because it doesn't suit the minorities opinion (We surely are agreed that the majority parent in the traditional manner).

"We've always done it this way" is the worst reason to do anything.

Just because there is a disparity means we should overcompensate. Whats wrong with the balance we have now?

We don't have balance, that's the point.

Your little girl is going to be growing up in a society which is essentially brainwashing her into being a pink princess, into a world where she will be told over and over and over that unless she's beautiful, stick-thin and has a nice man to take care of her then her life is void.

If you don't tell her that she could be a tennis player, an astrophysicist, a drummer, an engineer, a kick-boxer, or basically whatever she wants to be, [i]no-one else is going to.[/i]

It's not about stopping her being a "girl," rather it's about broadening her horizons; it's about exposing her to options, ideas and opportunities outside of the stereotype.

MoreCashThanDash - Member

So many people commenting on a thread about a TV programme without watching it, understanding what the experiment was trying to do, or seeing the outcomes.

Let me guess was it hard hitting journalism, investigating why the real science behind the actual differences between men and women is being ignored in favour of ever more radical lies to the point where the correct thing to believe is that ALL GENDER is a social construction and anyone who disagrees should be doxed?

Or was it a fluff piece about how pink clothing stops girls from becoming lumberjacks?

allthegear - Member

Why? Because the balance we have now is causing things such as the "Google Memo".

This is a perfect snapshot of the issue. The "Google Memo" was correct. It was a well reasoned document at the heart of which was the argument that we should treat people as individuals. People should be assessed on individual merits, and in order to encourage more women to work in google it would be better to change the working culture in google to be more accommodating to women as opposed to using illegal practices to artificially "fix" the demographics.

James Damore used legitimate peer reviewed science to back up his statement that Google is a left wing ideological echo chamber. The backlash and the fact that he was sacked is elegant proof he was correct. The media backlash was also very telling. His argument was completely mischaracterised, the people he gave interviews to were slandered and the media deferred to radical feminist idealogues instead of scientists.
Of course they would probably struggle to get legitimate scientists to comment since they would quickly loose their jobs if they did.

We absolutely should treat every person as an individual regardless of gender or race and encourage them to be the best people they can be but that doesn't change the fact that human beings are sexually dimorphic.

It's nice to imagine that we are ethereal creatures unconstrained by biology but we aren't.

but there could be a time when the fastest person is a woman

how so?

By running faster than all the men, I'd imagine.

allthegear - Being on the lucky side. Not sure I agree tbh. Given that I have a son and a daughter I see it that my daughter is on the lucky side. That's an interesting link but I don't see its relevance other than maybe the influence google can effect. A bit like Trump, I choose what influence it effects on me.

doris - I cant say it any clearer, I believe that todays female gender has as much chance, if not more chance to succeed where their male counterpart has. You can bring up every issue that is ongoing at present but imo this is fast changing and in the near future (My kids generation) this will possibly start to go the other way.

johndoh - yep, I also have a particularly sporty girl. In fact I would go so far as to say she hasn't met a boy of her age who can get anywhere near her motor skills. She taught herself to do a back summersault in 15mins a few weeks ago when she watched a competitive gymnast do it at the climbing wall and she decided she wanted to do it. She was recently challenged to a pull up comp at school (After climbing the firemans pole) by another boy. He did a couple. My daughter got to 10 and asked if he wanted her to continue. She would laugh if anyone said a boy was better than her.

Sorry Cougar, I can talk some bollocks but this takes the biscuit. Do you live in the 50's

[i]Your little girl is going to be growing up in a society which is essentially brainwashing her into being a pink princess, into a world where she will be told over and over and over that unless she's beautiful, stick-thin and has a nice man to take care of her then her life is void.

If you don't tell her that she could be a tennis player, an astrophysicist, a drummer, an engineer, a kick-boxer, or basically whatever she wants to be, no-one else is going to.[/i]

TLH - yeah, my daughter is the third quickest over 60m in her year (60 children, of which 45 are boys). And the way she does (self-taught) martial arts I doubt many of them would want to take her on in a fight either (she can put me in an arm lock despite my best efforts)! And she only weighs 19kg - light as a feather LOL

Edit - and she has a drum kit (in reference to ^^^)

🙂

but there could be a time when the fastest person is a woman

how so?

By running faster than all the men, I'd imagine.

aha ha ha. ha. ha.

jondoh - so in other words, she is living her life the way she wants to live it. Would you honestly say she is being railroaded down any track that she doesn't want to be? Does she get easily influenced by others?

My issue here is that people are taking offence at things because its there in general life and is the choice of the majority. Of course its going to cause some kind of subliminal influence to those that maybe wouldn't follow that path if it weren't there. However this doesn't necessarily make it wrong. If they get their way we may end up with our children struggling to deal with having strong boy/girl traits that don't fit in to the 'petals & sunshine' lives they seem to think this will bring.

Bottom line, bring your kids up the best you can and try to instill personal choice and confidence into them. After that, its a guessing game that its dangerous to alter too much

Sorry Cougar, I can talk some bollocks but this takes the biscuit. Do you live in the 50's

Cougar's right, just have a look in the clothes shops, the magazines, the TV programmes, advertising, toy shops etc. It's so obvious that the messages are there, and fed to us and our kids on a daily, hourly basis. Sure individually they're pretty benign*, but add them all up and you get kids with attitudes as displayed in the programme.

*Although thinking about it many of them aren't. I tried to get school shoes for our kids (boy and girl) recently, nice heavy duty stuff that could cope with running around and climbing trees that kind of thing. Easy enough for son, minimal choice for daughter (everything is open foot, shallow sole, minimal rubber protection). She's six and being restricted by footwear choices already!

Ignore it, claim it doesn't represent modern society if you want, but I'm afraid the evidence is everywhere.

but that doesn't change the fact that [b]the majority of[/b] human beings are sexually dimorphic.

Not everyone is 'binary' at birth. Take for instance someone who is born with androgen insensitivity syndrome. Chromosome wise they are XY but physically they present as 'female' so are frequently 'assigned' female.

Much of the understanding about 'intersex' has occurred in the period after the second world war so we are still only beginning to fully appreciate the number of variants - although there is no getting away from the fact that some harm has been done along the way in order to concede to the pressures of a binary society.

Peyote - So you totally agree with this

[i]If you don't tell her that she could be a tennis player, an astrophysicist, a drummer, an engineer, a kick-boxer, or basically whatever she wants to be, no-one else is going to.[/i]

Agree about the shoe choice. I don't have this issue because my girl doesn't mind about dressing in what a stereotypical girl would wear. However I probably would steer her towards more appropriate shoes for her which would be the boys styles. Its her choice, if she wants a more traditional style shoe like the boys are wearing then crack on, they wont refuse to sell her them and the school wouldn't have an issue.

jondoh - so in other words, she is living her life the way she wants to live it. Would you honestly say she is being railroaded down any track that she doesn't want to be? Does she get easily influenced by others?

johndoh - Is that any different to the girls teasing boys when they go through puberty and their voice breaks etc. We cant help physical attraction, kids growing up and life. We cant shield our kids from everything. Sometimes we just hope we have brought them up as best we can. I went through bullying, my son went through bullying and its the hardest thing to deal with. My daughter will drop kick anyone who even thinks about bullying her.

My daughter was told by her peers that she shouldn't like Star Wars cos it's for boys. She is pretty sensitive to criticism so she was distraught. But it's more than just being transiently upset; it's being told that your desires and choices are wrong and bad, that you are essentially a wrong un. This is terrible for self esteem, and that seriously affects your life.

My daughter will drop kick anyone who even thinks about bullying her.

Violence is no more the solution for girls than it is for boys. That won't work when she starts her first job, will it?

johndoh - Is that any different to the girls teasing boys when they go through puberty and their voice breaks etc. We cant help physical attraction, kids growing up and life. We cant shield our kids from everything.

I cant comment on your kid molgrips, its not right. I can only comment on my own experiences and I have not experienced anyone ever show that kind of attitude towards my daughter. Maybe I mix in more mature and civilised circles.

Yeah, drag every comment over the coals now. You know what I meant. How about i am confident that if she were put in a position where someone was trying to bully her she would either be strong enough to ensure she was safe or self confident enough to deal with herself or aware enough to escalate it for help. Does that cover everything

Another little thing about my little one - she also has a fascination with the war (her bedtime book almost every night is a Children's encyclopaedia of the World Wars). This isn't a passing fad – she is about to start year 4 and she first started asking questions in reception year at Armistice Day and I have encouraged her interest (I have an interest in it and soon the wars will pass into history). One time they had to build a scene from their favourite book and there was the usual scenes from 'Bunny Cakes', 'The Dinosaur that Ate Christmas', 'Gruffalo' etc. She built a shoebox WW1 trench complete with firing steps, barbed wire etc. I was so proud 🙂

Edit: Here we go...
[img] [/img]

I have not experienced anyone ever show that kind of attitude towards my daughter.

But of course, you are not there every break time are you?

Yeah, drag every comment over the coals now.

This whole thread (and indeed part of the original programme) was about the insidious nature of the little things we say that we think are inconsequential.

That's fantastic johndoh 🙂

molgrips - what would you have me do? Have a wire put on her so I can hear everything that is said to her. Most of my arguments is based around bringing my child up to be of strong enough mind and spirit to be able to make her own choices. Maybe you will effect more change by doing something similar

[img] [/img]

https://www.amazon.com/SP12V121PKT-SERI ... P12V121PKT

There you go. Jaw drop smiley.