[Closed] No matter how many times I see a...

It is always one of those

Oh! I have slipped the surly bonds of Earth
And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings

Yeap, something like that.

They're just wonderful to see and to hear, imo.

Saw a Spitfire and a Lancaster bomber overhead a couple of weeks ago, real goosebump moment.

Something very stirring about that sight, I'm honestly not that old, but I wonder if the younger generation will have the same feelings.

Indeed, nothing like seeing a machine designed by man to kill and destroy flying by. Really gives me a lump in my throat it does. Makes me hark back to the days when men were men. Kids these days, they'll never know the glory of valiant death, will they? Sometimes feel the same if I see a Cruise missile flying by...the sheer accuracy...you just gotta admire it. 🙂

Ah well Darcy we would all be speaking Kraut if it hadn't been for the Spitfire and the Hurricane and some brave men killing baddies!!

Deadly, you have no soul. 😉

How about a list of countries with corrupt despotic Governments to nuke.I will start with

Myanmar.

Hmmm...

I'm sort of with DD on this one. I've just seen 4 modern jets roar across London. Not exactly sure why, BoB commemoration or something? Can't see why modern jets are appropriate in that context really.

Spitfires though, I can appreciate as they symbolise the bravery of so many people in repelling the Nazi air attack. I don't get all sentimental very them like some on here do, but I can appreciate the sacrifices made by people so that we can live in a free society now.

Whilst I can appreciate the engineering and technology that goes into military hardware, I don't think glorifying it is particularly healthy. It's a weapon, it's not something nice. It's designed and constructed to kill as efficiently as possible. I'm not going to celebrate that. People get all worked up over Vulcan bombers. Sure, it's a beautiful looking plane, but it was developed to deliver proper nasty super-destructive nuclear weapons. I won't cry if they never flew again.

Interestingly, if someone has a fascination with guns, they're seen as a bit of a nut-job. But the same fascination of military aircraft seems acceptable...

I will follow up myanmar with....

The UK..

it never ceases to amaze me how they have so sneakily managed to convince the moronic populace that they are lving in a fair and just democracy.. when in reality the exact opposite is true..

10 out of 10

I wondered how soon the UK would take to get posted!!

Freedom is relative...

proper nasty super-destructive nuclear weapons

Well there is no point having one that doesn't do it properly!!

Ah well Darcy we would all be speaking Kraut

No we wouldn't...but there wouldn't be such a difference between American and UK English 🙂

Deadly, you have no soul.

I couldn't agree more 😀

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Kids these days, they'll never know the glory of valiant death, will they?

I know you are just doing your usual thing, DD... but come on.

It's not about them being killing machines, it's about the sacrifice. Not sure if collectively we'd have the spine to stand up and be counted in a similar situation nowadays. Much more likely to whinge about the invading forces on a forum.

Modern military machines just give me the willies and make me despair that little has been learned in the intervening years. Now it's the Jews committing war crimes ffs!

Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori:
mors et fugacem persequitur virum
nec parcit inbellis iuventae
poplitibus timidove tergo.

Not sure if collectively we'd have the spine to stand up and be counted in a similar situation nowadays

I'm not so sure... if the invading horde was massing on the shores of France I think people would leap for their pitchforks/kitchen knives/pickaxe handles.. we've all got loved ones that we would unthinkingly unleash our inner hero to protect..

I think the apathy and cynicism is more to do with faraway battles being fought for spurious reasons at the behest of untrustworthy leaders..

This grooves my truffles more. Imposing indeed - UK nuclear deterrent from 50s- 'til introduction of the Polaris submarines - the Avro Vulcan and its 400 kiloton "bucket of sunshine."

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Does this 'groove your truffle', derek?

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'Bucket of Sunshine'. Yeah, I'm sure they call it that in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

(If anyone is offended by these images, then I apologise if the reality of war is abhorrent and upsetting. I feel these images are relevant in the context of this discussion, however)

Elf - that isn't a discussion. It is a comment and observation by yourself. AKA an over reaction to my posting a picture of the bomber that prevented, through its deterrent role, the cold war becoming an extremely hot one.

BTW I am particularly impressed by the fire retardant properties demonstrated by that shirt in the last pic.

noteeth - Member

I know you are just doing your usual thing, DD... but come on.

Eh? My "usual" thing? You must be thinking about someone else fella.

BTW I am particularly impressed by the fire retardant properties demonstrated by that shirt in the last pic.

Oh is that meant to be a [i]joke[/i]? I am sorry, I must lack a sense of humour for not finding the horrific suffering of other funny... 🙄

Haha, this has quite amused me to be honest. It's a mountain bike forum, nothing to get your heckles up about...

It's a mountain bike forum, nothing to get your heckles up about...

awwww... how cute.. you're new here aren't you..?

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Well, reasonably new. I just love the way a post about loving the sight of a Spitfire descends into pictures of people dying due to nuclear attacks. You couldn't make it up. Except someone just did. 😆

I just love the way a post about loving the sight of a Spitfire descends into pictures of people dying due to nuclear attacks.

Attention seekers with nothing better to do usually.

Look - here's one now

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Well, reasonably new. I just love the way a post about loving the sight of a Spitfire descends into pictures of people dying due to nuclear attacks. You couldn't make it up. Except someone just did.

I think the point DD was trying to make originally, was to do with the glorification of weapons of destruction, by people who haven't a clue what war is actually about, and who will chose to ignore the reality whenever it's presented to them. A bit like children playing with guns/toy warplanes.

'Yeah aren't warplanes great?'

[url= http://www.google.co.uk/images?um=1&hl=en&safe=off&client=safari&rls=en&biw=877&bih=774&tbs=isch%3A1&sa=1&q=victims+of+atomic+bomb&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai= ]They do things like this.[/url] (Warning: Very shocking and disturbing images. Don't click if you don't want to see images of horrific injuries and mutilation)

'Oh no you're so mean don't do that'.

Attention seekers with nothing better to do usually.

Or, people who really don't think the glorification of war is something we should accept so lightly.

Good Lord, some people can't even handle their views being questioned; God knows how they'd handle war. 🙄

Haha, this just gets better. 😆

Are you Chris Morris in disguise?

Oh, and BTW; the pics of victims of atomic bomb strikes were in response to someone getting all doe-eyed over a Vulcan bomber, nowt to do with Spitfires. But hey, feel free to take things completely out of context if you think it helps your argument.

Are you Chris Morris in disguise?

Why, are you Alan Partridge? 😉

Loving the irony of someone using the anonymity of the Tags to accuse me of being a coward, btw... 😆

Fred, you said it best when you said this:

Spitfires though, I can appreciate as they symbolise the bravery of so many people in repelling the Nazi air attack.

I got narked at DD's comment because, as you say, something (designed to kill) can indeed symbolise extraordinary acts of bravery, by a generation who saw more of death than most on this forum will ever know. Many of whom didn't come back.

By virtue of my location, I've had the privilege of helping to look after a fair number of mechanics and factory types who worked on Spitfires (and the rest). And whilst most felt some kind of affection for the machines, I never heard any of them [i]glorify[/i] what it meant to fight the Luftwaffe. Most seemed haunted by the horror of it - ground crew waiting for planes that never returned.

No need to bring cruise missiles into it - although there certainly won't be much left to remember after the apocalypse. 😕

I watched a fantastic programme last night called 'spitfire girls'. They were glamourous women of the 1940's who delivered all sorts of aircraft from old bi-planes to the up to the moment large bombers during the war.

Out of every 10 pilots there was one fatality amongst these air transport auxillary girls.

The bombers do it for me. So slow, must have been sitting ducks.

Regardless of their original purpose it's difficult to deny that they are awesome to see in the flesh so to speak. The Vulcan and Spitfire are iconic images and the noise they create is a thing of wonder. I saw the Tornado at the Southport airshow last year and it was an amazing experience.

Sometimes people think to deeply and jump out of their boxes too quickly. War is a terrible thing, I haven't read anything above that disputes that.

Some folk need to lay off the caffeine.

was to do with the glorification of weapons of destruction, by people who haven't a clue what war is actually about,

IMO it's nothing to do with that.

If you're one of those people that appreciates mechanical objects for what they are, and the certain 'something' (I call it character or soul) that they possess, then a Spitfire is well up there with THE very best vehicles ever construced by mankind. You either understand that or you don't.

My list would be something like

Ducati 916 & Desmosedici RR
E type Jaguar
Concorde
Spitfire
Air cooled VWs
Lamborghini Countach
Alfa Romeo SZ
Lancia Delta Integrale
Aston Martin DB5 (?? the Bond one)
Vincent Black Shadow

And a few others.
Stuff that stops me in my tracks, makes me do a double take or sends a shiver down my spine. And there's very little to beat the lazy burble of a Merlin V12. 😀

It's not an argument Elfin. You my friend are taking things out of context.

Someone puts a picture of an Avro Vulcan up - you put pictures of nuclear bomb victims up. The Vulcan never attacked anyone using nuclear weapons. You are taking things out of context. War is bad, we know this. Why do you need to bring a mountain bike forum down with your higher than mighty opinions?

Someone likes to see a Spitfire fly. That is all.

Amen to that.

If you're one of those people that appreciates mechanical objects for what they are, and the certain 'something' (I call it character or soul) that they possess, then a Spitfire is well up there with THE very best vehicles ever constructed by mankind. You either understand that or you don't.

I am, and I do. I find both the Spitfire and the Vulcan to be wonderful examples of aeronautical engineering and design. But I also see things within the context of their purpose. In the case of the Spitfire, I think it is deservedly a symbol of the struggle and sacrifice made against tyranny and evil. When I see one, I give thought to those who flew in them and other warplanes, who all did their bit to help defend their nation. I have nothing but admiration and utmost respect for those that fought, and helped the war effort in whatever capacity.

With the Vulcan, however, I see it differently; it isn't a symbol of hope and bravery, like the Spitfire. Regardless of it's undoubted pedigree, it is little more than a symbol of Mankind's inability to resolve it's own conflicts. And when someone makes a glib comment like "400 kiloton "bucket of sunshine."", then I find that incredibly insulting and disrespectful to all those who suffer from the ravages of war.

It's a pity Mankind can't focus efforts in more benevolent ways.

With the Vulcan, however, I see it differently; it isn't a symbol of hope and bravery, like the Spitfire. Regardless of it's undoubted pedigree, it is little more than a symbol of Mankind's inability to resolve it's own conflicts. And when someone makes a glib comment like "400 kiloton "bucket of sunshine."", then I find that incredibly insulting and disrespectful to all those who suffer from the ravages of war.

It's a pity Mankind can't focus efforts in more benevolent ways.

You know, I think you might be right. Point well made.

It's not an argument Elfin. You my friend are taking things out of context.

Someone puts a picture of an Avro Vulcan up - you put pictures of nuclear bomb victims up. The Vulcan never attacked anyone using nuclear weapons. You are taking things out of context. War is bad, we know this. Why do you need to bring a mountain bike forum down with your higher than mighty opinions?

Someone likes to see a Spitfire fly. That is all.

I don't think I'm taking things 'out of context' at all. Derek Starship's comments were, in my opinion, insulting and disrespectful to the victims of such 'buckets of sunshine'. I think sentiments like his are sickening, quite frankly. It was he that chose to glorify the Vulcan as a weapon of war, not me. I chose to take a broader view of such things, that's all. Yes, it's an incredible 'plane, but let's not forget it's [i]purpose[/i]. To separate or disassociate the thing from it's purpose is to ignore the reality of Mankind's Inhumanity.

As for the accusation of bringing down a mountain biking forum' with my 'high and mighty opinions'; Am I not entitled to voice my opinions? I've at least attempted to explain them, and stand by them 100%. If this sits uneasy with some, then maybe my point of war being something that should not be glorified has been understood.

Anyway enough already. I'm sure Deadlydarcy will be along presently to explain his own views.

Look, someone said they like seeing a Spitfire when it goes past.

Why does it have to turn into a soapbox of right and wrong? You state the obvious that most of us know. Why not go on a political forum to air your view?

Person likes Spitfire.

Nuclear bombs bad. Nothing to do with person liking seeing a plane fly past.

Anyway enough already. I'm sure Deadlydarcy will be along presently to explain his own views.

Eh? Somebody call?

Now, I love a bit of engineering as much as the next guy. And undoubtedly, a Spitfire's a grand looking thing indeed. However, for me, any machine of war will always be tainted with the purpose for which it was designed. To kill. To maim. To rain destruction on it's victims. If you can ignore this, then fair dues, go ahead and ignore it and glibly comment on how a plane will deliver a 40 kiloton bucket of sunshine on its victims. Don't you think that the bucket of sunshine will be arriving back at your door by return post anyway?

Mankind has designed beautiful machines and engineering. Personally, I prefer it when he designs things to bring people together - to cross borders. To shorten the distance between us. Which is why, for example, (even though I don't treat its passing as some kind of bereavement) I can appreciate Concorde. I'm not going to attribute anything as imaginative as "soul" to some nuts and bolts and moulded aluminium and plastic though. A drawing of a sun coming up over a rickety house on a hill drawn by a three year old's got more soul than a machine.

Man is capable of seemingly impossible achievements when he talks and communicates with his fellow man. But when he stops talking and picks up a gun or a plane or a missile or a tank to do his talking for him, he has failed. No matter how "beautifully" he has done it.

Why not go on a political forum to air your view?

That's the beauty of STW Glitter - you just never know which way the discussion's going to go. And another thing, you get to be controversial every so often. Like, I dunno, you tell me...some people even take the name of a convicted paedophile and complete arsewipe of a human being and turn it the other way round...edgy ****ers that they are. They probably think that's funny. I reckon any day now, someone might just try it.