Access to housing, jobs, access to health care, access to social services, schools places, increase in crime among certain demographics. Changes to local culture, ability to absorb an increase in population that hasn't been educated/ grown up here, The fact that in some places folks haven't been consulted or asked their opinions about the level of immigration and have been told repeatedly that they're simple-minded racists if they dare question it.
All valid points. I await nickc and I to be accused of racist tendencies.
What has any of that got to do with blaming all immigrants for the crime of one of them? What has that go to do with selectively focussing on crimes carried out by immigrants (or people that look/sound like immigrants) and responding to calls for rage, while quietly letting all the similar crimes carried out by non-immigrants (or people that look/sound like they're not immigrants) slide by as normal but sad news?
Plenty of people have hard lives, without resorting to blaming immigrants and calling for rage against them all when one of them commits a crime. What's different about them/us compared to those ready to take to the streets and burn the homes, hotels and businesses of immigrants (or Muslims, or Jews, or Eastern Europeans, or Africans, or Homosexuals or... whoever is next).
Nick has a very valid point. The thing is that people who just scream 'racist!' at anyone who dares to question any aspect of immigration (and there are plenty on here) just constantly shoot themselves in the foot, alienate huge swathes of people who aren't actually racist and drive them straight into the welcoming arms of the likes of Farage, who is happy to offer them simplistic solutions to complex issues.
Some people seem to have learnt absolutely nothing from the Brexit vote
No, we (well the media at least) is very much at the opposite end of that now... very, very wary of calling anyone a racist.
What should we call it when the crimes of one person are blamed on all people they share a characteristic with? When rage is directed at the whole 'group' (even though they don't even know each other) rather than the criminal?
Some things are clearly racist and some aren't, but get lumped in with the same.
I have to say that I'm not massively surprised that a place that has been literally divided along completely separatist, sectarian lines, with two rival forms of toxic nationalism constantly (and frequently violently) at odds with each other, turns out to display a high level of racism
I may be wrong, I’ve not noticed anyone scream “racist” on here? I’ve not noticed any personal attacks either, just robust responses to arguments.
I actually refrained from calling out an obviously racist comment that was made recently on a different thread in the interests of harmony.
Especially in light of recent events and also the thought provoking “Tip Toe” I will not stay quiet in the future. It is our duty to call out racism, homophobia, transgender hate, and indeed all the hate that the right wing need to stoke their fascist agenda.
I have to say that I'm not massively surprised that a place that has been literally divided along completely separatist, sectarian lines, with two rival forms of toxic nationalism constantly (and frequently violently) at odds with each other, turns out to display a high level of racism
Its almost like there already existed organised groups of people willing to use a horrible incident to show that they still have clout in their communities, groups with a long history of hatred to anyone outside their own.
What has any of that got to do with blaming all immigrants for the crime of one of them?
They're not. look, for some/most of the folks rioting is just an excuse for a go at the cops and be a dick. There's no excuse for it. But if you just (the general you, not any you in particular) take the view that opposite of what Tommy Robinson says is the legitimate position, you run the risk of the 'counter' fallacy.
We can't simply ignore uncomfortable questions about the amount of people that we [as a nation] accepted into the country - best estimate is just a shade under a million in the few years in between Brexit and Covid19 and dismiss any questions about that with a hand-wavey "Oh, you're just being racist" simply because it's the opposite of the things that Nigel or Tommy say.
They're not. look, for some/most of the folks rioting is just an excuse for a go at the cops and be a dick.
For most of them they are motivated by hatred towards migrants and non-whites. Let's not sugar coat it. Their racism and violent actions are being both legitimised and incited by the likes of Farage, Vance, Musk et al. This is the new normal we have to deal with. It would be with us no matter how many/few people came to the UK in recent years, because it's really not about the numbers (as the current government will discover when lowering immigration does nothing to change the narrative).
Of course you can also be a racist and have valid concerns about immigration.
I have valid concerns about immigration and also the asylum process but because I am not a racist I don't say or do racist stuff - see the difference.
For most of them they are motivated by hatred towards migrants and non-whites. Let's not sugar coat it.
I'll ask again..."what are the conditions that make rejection or concern about migration seem reasonable and what are we going to do about them"
All valid points. I await nickc and I to be accused of racist tendencies.
They are. The trouble is that you need a decent and rational vehicle to bring that into debate. If the bus that you are travelling on is filled with people burning others out of homes, I'm afraid though you're in with them. Not to invoke Godwin but you can't say 'I disagree with Hitler's approach to the jews but he is investing heavily in infrastructure therefore I'm still voting for him'. The jewish situation outweighs any decent policies he had, and there were a few (decent policies, I mean) that some members on here would be very much in favour of, I think. Deficit investment spending? Nature and wildlife protection laws?
So who is trying to have a rational debate on the immigration question. Well, Labour for a start but just for mentioning it the holier than thou lefties and the RW press immediately scream 'Racists!' anyway. And so we are where we are.
The mainstream needs to take the debate back onto reasonable ground, away from the fascist rioters. How, I don't know, and in the meantime the likes of the fictitious Clive Goss and his mates grow more emboldened.
I do sincerely hope that I too would have the wherewithal to name check the vital work in the "hospitality sector" should a family member have his eyes stabbed out and throat slashed.
The mainstream needs to take the debate back onto reasonable ground, away from the fascist rioters.
Who is the mainstream though? Who now owns and controls the debate? The "debate" in the media is currently about whether distributing the addresses of black social workers to target their homes for destruction, while they are in them, is right or wrong. How is that a question? That's how far mainstream media and social media has moved towards people we should all be out right condemning.
I can want to stop small boat crossings simply on the basis that it's wildly dangerous and people die. There's nothing racist and the end result is identical to the demands of the racist - the boat crossings stop.
I didn't say that wanting to stop small boat crossings is racist! Make your argument if you want but please do not invent stuff to claim I have said to support your argument
the point is the entire immigration "crisis" is completely manufactured by right wing propaganda organisations and politicians
1) we created the conditions for desparate people to want to move to stable countries
2) the UK needs immigrants to supply workers
3) Small boat crossings are a tiny % of all immigration
4) Asylum applicants are incredibly badly treated and it takes years to process them leading to huge amounts of mental health issues
5) some irregular arrivals are stuck in a legal limbo where they cannot be processed at all, they cannot work or integrate, they cannot be removed,
6) Politicians have deliberately conflated immigration, irregular arrivals and asylum seekers
7) Brexit made all the issues worse
If politicians where actually honest abo0ut this then there would be no troubles, instead even the labour party are appeasing the racists and are thus giving them credence. Its disgusting cowardice by folk who know better
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvgd93xvznyo
I'm confused - why aren't Nigel & SYL etc encouraging people to protest about this vile individual?
to add to my points above there is effectively no legal route for folk to claim asylum in the UK. You are not allowed to claim if you arrive by irregular means, you are not allowed to claim if you have passed thru a safe country first.
these are the things that create the small boats issue. Its completely created by politicians decisions
There is some utterly vile shite being pushed around on SM, how Starmer and the Police are threatening the victims families to force them to make the statements calling for no violence etc.
Blatant bollocks but there seems to be sufficient bots and idiots pushing it to see it getting traction.
I didn't say that wanting to stop small boat crossings is racist! Make your argument if you want but please do not invent stuff to claim I have said to support your argument
i didn't argue that you had made this claim.
the point is the entire immigration "crisis" is completely manufactured by right wing propaganda organisations and politicians
Again, if you're going to dismiss the arguments of the people to whom the burden of immigration falls without addressing the conditions and provisions in those communities, to help them with that, then all the protestations about the macro-arguments about immigration are going to fall on deaf ears. the "problem" of immigration is a shared one that falls between both immigrants and the communities where they end up living.
All of those points are valid, but no one is going to give a monkey's that as a result of Geo-politics; Sudanese and Syrians are going to turn up on your doorstep if there isn't help for those folks to help them, i.e. additional school places, additional health care provision etc, or indeed a wider discussion about whether it was a good idea to accept 994,000 people into our communities in just four years between Brexit and Covid19 (thanks Johnson) with zero thought to the communities that would have to accommodate that growth*.
* and those folks haven't gone to Leith. If I look at the ethno-demographics of Edinburgh I see that it's overwhelmingly white with over 85% of the population being white European, and even in Glasgow, Scotland's most ethically diverse city, it's still only 19%. However in Manchester where I live, 44% of the population is an ethnic minority,
How many people (and what % of the population) are recent immigrants to NI (from outside the UK and Ireland)? Are they an additional drain, or positive contributors in the areas you highlight, in NI? The “problems” occurring on Belfast streets right now are because of people who hate migrants, not people with “legitimate” concerns about numbers of migrants. Numbers are low in NI, however you count them… ethnicity, recent arrivals, visa holders, right to remain, applicants, new citizens, asylum seekers, born outside UK/Ireland… on any count the numbers and % are lower than just about anywhere else in the UK. It’s not about numbers, it’s about people stirring up hate and rage towards a tiny number of migrants (and non-whites) who are easy to target (and attack).
Blatant bollocks but there seems to be sufficient bots and idiots pushing it to see it getting traction.
If you have a read of the comments from the kind of people who follow social media groups for Reform and suchlike, it's clear that they'll believe absolutely anything. Literally any old shite that's thrown at them, no matter how ridiculous.
If I thought any of them had any money I'd definitely consider becoming a full time fraudster. They're so gullible you could separate them from their life savings in seconds. Unfortunately, looking at their spelling, grammar and ability to structure a sentence, I doubt any of them are employable, never mind in decently paid jobs. Whenever they appear on TV, with slightly more teeth than GCSE's (3 compared to none), it tends to confirm this.
Oh well...
nickc, At 44%, Manchester has a lot of catching up to do with Birmingham, where I live. At the last census in 2021, 51.4% of people have a background either entirely or partly from a non-white background.
Issues with funding for education provision are more likely caused by the fact that spending has decreased in real terms over the period 2014 - 2025.
Frontline NHS funding increased significantly from 2014 to 2019 although has since flatlined. This was also distorted by huge spending during the COVID pandemic period.
And what about in NI, where thugs are seeking out the homes of black people and setting fire to them with people inside? What are the % there?
The problem isn’t numbers, it’s prejudice, which is often more prevalent in areas with fewer immigrants and non-white faces.
The larger English cities are where most migrants come to, as you both point out. Small centres of economic boom where the new jobs (and big universities) are.
Plus ca change
Pavements and penthouse is a great album, although i think "Come live with me" hasn't aged well
Voting our way out of this mess is the only option, rioting and violence is dumb and counterproductive. That being said it’s not exactly surprising that it’s got to this point and it’s almost certainly going to get worse.
Mass migration wasn’t done with the people’s consent, no one voted for it, they’ve consistently voted against it and been ignored time and time again. No party has run on a platform of increasing migration because they’d never get in, they just do it. I totally get why people have completely lost faith in the system and see this as the only option but it’s not the way, get involved in local politics, do good in your local community, speak to people you know calmly and rationally and win them over. It has to happen this way, the alternative is unthinkable.
Mass migration wasn’t done with the people’s consent, no one voted for it,
Yes the make up of society happened when "the people" weren't looking.
they’ve consistently voted against it and been ignored time and time again
No they haven't.
Don't go round spouting off that you are articulating the will of "the people" you views don't tie in with mine or anyone I know.
“Mass migration” is a very emotive, and perhaps inaccurate term used to stir up people’s emotions, (often used by the fascists) The majority in the last few years have come on work or study visas. Entrants have to pay towards healthcare and also for their visas. The issues that we are having at the moment give me no doubt that the major targets of these fascists are people of colour, it’s racism, pure and simple.
they’ve consistently voted against it and been ignored time and time again
No they haven't.
Don't go round spouting off that you are articulating the will of "the people" you views don't tie in with mine or anyone I know.
We had the entirety of the recent Tory years were they promised to reduce immigration and did nothing of the sort. That's 15+ years were the majority party were elected with a manifesto commitment to reduce immigration. Brexit was for many people another vote to reduce immigration however misguided that was. During the majority of the time Labour were also promising the same, with Ed Miliband getting particular criticism from the left of the party for it.
“Mass migration” is a very emotive, and perhaps inaccurate term used to stir up people’s emotions, (often used by the fascists) The majority in the last few years have come on work or study visas. Entrants have to pay towards healthcare and also for their visas. The issues that we are having at the moment give me no doubt that the major targets of these fascists are people of colour, it’s racism, pure and simple.
It can be both racist and true. In the last 30 years the white British part of the population has declined from 93% to 73%. That's a huge change.
It can be both racist and true. In the last 30 years the white British part of the population has declined from 93% to 73%. That's a huge change.
And the problem with that is?
It can be both racist and true. In the last 30 years the white British part of the population has declined from 93% to 73%. That's a huge change.
And the problem with that is?
I'm not saying it's a problem, just that there's been a huge change so "mass migration" isn't some made up fascist falacy.
We had the entirety of the recent Tory years were they promised to reduce immigration and did nothing of the sort. That's 15+ years were the majority party were elected with a manifesto commitment to reduce immigration
The majority of the UK population did not vote for thie tories. If one is going to use phrases such as "the people" one can expect to be judged on the voting of all the people and it wasn't a majority for the tories.
And the problem with that is?
Nigel Farage as your next PM, or even Rupert Lowe leading a cadre of MPs that make Farage look like a moderate.
We should stop immigration to keep the far right out of power?
I don't have an answer for the problem of the far right. But the link between demographic changes and the rise of the far right looks clear to me.
