So in advance of the budget we've had the announcement of regional pay for public service workers, a reduction in the top rate of income tax, and the privatisation of the roads, right-wing ideological goals that previous non-coalition tory govts either didn't want to or couldn't implement. Now that the Welfare Reform Bill and the Health Bill have been passed, are Cameron and Osborne signalling that they regard the Lib-Dems as having exceeded their usefulness, that the Lib-Dems can stay in the 'coalition' if they choose, but that the tories are going to proceed with their right-wing agenda no matter what NC says?
Maybe now Mr Clegg finally comprehends the yawning chasm that is opening underneath him...
Lib-Dems are damned if they stay in the coalition and damned if they leave though.
if they stay and can't give specifics on how they moderated tory policies then they have no credibility.
if they leave now and force election they'll get hammered at polls due to current disatisfaction and we'll end up with a tory majority.
Clegg knows this is is his 'once in a lifetime' opportunity to be in the government and he'll stick with it whatever happens.
I have a horrible, horrible feeling wwaswas is tight...
🙁
Rachel
Lib-Dems are damned if they stay in the coalition and damned if they leave though.
Yes, but if they leave, then they could spare the rest of us from eternal damnation.
They're hopelessly naive. I couldn't believe Vince Cables statement the other week about the Tories having no 'grand vision'. What?!!! Seriously?!!! Wake up FFS! They've got the clearest ideological vision I've ever seen. They want to privatise everything. The NHS, the Education system, the police, now the roads. And make damn sure that when they're voted out in 3 years, the process is irreversible
Makes you wonder though, what would have happened if either of the other outcomes of the GE had occoured?
1) Conervatives win outright, and get (rid of) everything they (don't) want. A wet blanket though the Lib-Dems have been, they have at least exerted some restraint on the conservatives, just look at the news, it's all Cleg and Dave or Cable and Osbourne fall out on this/that/the other, with barely any influence from the Labour 'opposition'. In some ways it's nice to have a constructive government getting things done rather than the usual argumenttative government/opposition setup.
2) Labour win, and keep trying to buy their way out of the recession (which might have worked, in my non expert view we needed another 12-18 months of spending before making the cuts, evidenced by the u-turn in growth figures as soon as the 'emergency budget' was announced)
The much-heralded 'falling out' stories are but window dressing. DC knows that he has NC exactly where he wantes him and NC knows that as well.
And make damn sure that when they're voted out in 3 years
Seriously Binners, can you see this happening given the complete and utter lack of a credible opposition. For the first time I look at the main parties and see nothing that appeals to me.
Who's Nick Clegg?
Seriously, if the Lib Dems only just grew some balls and vocally challenged the tories as being as set of *******s, then they might have stood a chance in the future.
Their uninspiring time in government however has made them look like nothing more than a bunch of showboaters who wanted to be on the telly.
An the alternative is to vote for Ed Miliband as PM yes? You get a lot of whinging about this government but how come we never hear those magic words?
the lib dems have formed an effective opposition to the conservatives, they at least have some small veto over any plans. the labour party has proved to be completly irrelevant and increasingly out of touch with reality. shame on milibrand bros. by confusing the party by both standing they ended up with the leader no one wanted and no one will remember the Foot years all over again.
An the alternative is to vote for Ed Miliband as PM yes
And Ed Balls as Chancellor. Now that really scares me...
An the alternative is to vote for Ed Miliband as PM yes? You get a lot of whinging about this government but how come we never hear those magic words?
maybe because our electoral system doesn't allow it?
just a thought
they at least have some small veto over any plans
You either have a veto or you don't
You can't have a veto of varying levels
maybe because our electoral system doesn't allow it?just a thought
What you on about? If you dont like the Coalition (I do) then what are you all saying? Vote Labour for Miliband and Balls yes?
Maybe now Mr Clegg finally comprehends the yawning chasm that is opening underneath him...
I think this is an obvious conclusion but one that (perhaps) time will prove wrong. In general, I am not a fan of coalition governments (nor AV partly for that reason) and I find some of the more obvious horse-trading between the LD and the Tories somewhat depressing especially this week. I am also mixed on some of the LD policies (and "almost" 100% against anything that Dunce Cable spouts).
Nevertheless, I am beginning to change my mind about the coalition and even the value of NC for the very simple reason that the coalition had forced a greater level of debate on many issues - voting, NHW reforms, inequality, taxation, is wealth morally wrong (!!), how to avoid speeding tickets (oops, ignore that), the folly of wind farms etc. All of this has added transparency and debate rather then obscurity and confusion. And that is a good thing.
The concept of coalition is new for most of us and is bound to be a rocky road. But with such a weak opposition, I think that the LDs have actually played an important role at keeping CMD &Co in check even if the Tories have ultimately called their bluff/stitched them up on many policy issues.
If Cleggy survives the next year, I think history will judge his contribution kinder than the obvious conclusion that many of us come to now.
What exactly have the Lib-Dems vetoed?
You're absolutely right Coyote. There's no credible alternative. The labour party under Ed Milliband is an absolute joke! He's pathetic!
With the worst unemployment figures for god knows how long, 2.7 million, announced last week - and what do we hear from the labour party? Nothing! Not a squeak out of them!
They should be running rings around this lot! The economy is a car crash. But who's shadow chancellor? Ed Balls. Seriously? The man who helped Gordon Brown steer the economy onto the rocks in the first place!
I do think we've seen the end of parliamentary majorities for the foreseeable future, on account of them all being equally as ****ing useless!
What you on about?
The electorate don't get to choose the PM, the parties do it and they can change them without any input from the electorate
Come on say it jota.....vote Labour yes?
Time will tell just how much the Lib Dems have mitigated the Tories plans. But one thing is certain Labour at them moment are an absolute joke.
The most effective opposition to the government has been the SNP!
I'd vote for my next door neighbour's dog than the tories, or labour for that matter.
LD had my vote. Never *ever* again. 😥
Thats the problem Labour are going to have. Lot of you guys are passionatly opposed to the government but how often does anyone on here ever say Vote Labour? It's all SNP or Greens or Ernie giving us a lecture on Marxist theory. But hardly ever does anyone nail their colours to the mast with Messers Miliband and Balls. They are going to lose.
Good point binners. Nothing from the so-called opposition of worth for a while now.
Agree with AdamW too.
It used to be the case that government Capital Projects were a useful tool to help regenerate moribund economies. This of course, was predicated on governments being able to afford them. This is not the case today.
Would not involving the private sector achieve an even better result with the road-building schemes generating real profits and jobs.
Do we now not want this and if so, why not?
No we don't. Look what happened when the private sector got involved with the railways.
privatising the NHS and education should have sent the lib dems running from the coalition but i completely agree that clegg will cling on to what power he has for as long as possible no matter how far dave has his fist up his bum
privatising roads isnt so bad for the lib dems as theyve always been a bit more pro environment?
and considering how expensive toll roads are (m4 bridge, m6 toll)
i think that if all our motorways are toll roads a lot of people will be priced off them
edit
and cameron clearly says only new roads will be toll roads, and then gives the example of improving the A14 so it becomes a toll road, which blatantly means any time a bit of work is done on an existing road private companies will be able to charge you for driving on it.
I've stopped helping / supporting my local Lib Dems over NC's behaviour - not going to do anything to help a bunch of Tory sycophants keep DC in power. Back to Labour now 🙁
Back to Labour now
We have found one!
The Lib Dems are completely finished as a result of this. Vote lib deam and get Tory will follow them for a generation. they have made a fundamental blunder.
ohnohesback - Member
No we don't. Look what happened when the private sector got involved with the railways
Your memory of Nationalised Railways (if you have one) has become warped over time by your prejudices.
Given the choice (and having had the experience), I prefer today's system, flawed though it is.
ohnohesback - Member
What exactly have the Lib-Dems vetoed?
We dont know what goes on behind the scenes with these people who represent us (!!!) and the honest answer is probably not that much. But that is not to say that they are not forcing much more, healthy debate on key issues. And that has to be a good thing.
also surprised that dave is suggesting this as his horse riding buddy clarckson will be all ranty?
or will he be happy that the mways will be empty for him and other people that can afford supercars??
while us plebs sit in b-road traffic jams in our ford focus
You're absolutely right Coyote. There's no credible alternative. The labour party under Ed Milliband is an absolute joke! He's pathetic!
Or is it simply that they are all facing the same problems, all frankly arguing the same solutions (sic) once you get past the obvious party-political rhetoric and all constrained by the enormity of the real mess that we are in? None of these guys would really be able to do anything better.
I love the attacks on the "austerity" Tories - FFS, they haven't even started yet. Minor tinkering with the deficit and as for the overall level of debt....!!!??? As Mckinsey and the rating agencies point out, we haven't even started on deleveraging the UK economy yet. And Balls is not completely stupid and knows the limits of talking complete BS as his speech to the Fabian Society a weeks ago showed.
I'd vote for my next door neighbour's dog than the tories, or labour for that matter.LD had my vote. Never *ever* again.
Is your next door neighbour's dog standing then? Otherwise you appear to be a bit short of alternatives.
or will he be happy that the mways will be empty for him and other people that can afford supercars??
while us plebs sit in b-road traffic jams in our ford focus
I must be some sort of "sub-pleb", then, cycling or using public transport...
Aren't cars the problem, the great car society being an invention of Saint Margaret? The super-rich can do what they like in their super cars as far as I'm concerned.
"Minority party in coalition having to compromise" SHOCKER!
Aren't they just saying that new roads would be private/toll?
I'm for it, if the roads are built on economic grounds, i.e. like the M6 toll or transporter bridge in M'boro cut off a fair sized corner, and the toll aproximately equals the fuel saving then why not let a private company have a stab at it?
no, not just new roads. Roads that have been altered, worked on etc. So one of Dave's buddies' companies could work on a road, alter the lines to create a new lane and then be able to charge people for the privilege of sitting in traffic on it.
thisisnotaspoon - MemberAren't they just saying that new roads would be private/toll?
as i said earlier.......
cameron clearly says only new roads will be toll roads,
and then gives the example of improving the A14 so it becomes a toll road,
which blatantly means any time a bit of work is done on an existing road private companies will be able to charge you for driving on it.
politician in being 2 faced duplicitous twunt shocker!
Are we against toll roads now? Or are we against them because it is the evil Tories who are moving in that direction? I well remember Labour floating the idea a few years ago of a national pay per mile road charging system. That got kicked into the long grass under pressure from the road lobby.
Given that the proposal includes siphoning off of VED to grease the wheels of this little enterprise, it's a wholly different kettle of fish to the road-pricing schemes we heard about under Labour.
Given that the proposal includes siphoning off of VED to grease the wheels of this little enterprise, it's a wholly different kettle of fish to the road-pricing schemes we heard about under Labour.
Straw man
And drivers will legitimately be able to say ' our road tax pays for the roads'.
i think they will legitimately be able to say "our road tax pays a company to charge us to use the roads" 😉
privatising the NHS and education should have sent the lib dems running from the coalition but i completely agree that clegg will cling on to what power he has for as long as possible no matter how far dave has his fist up his bum
They've all been pretty consistent in saying both parties are signed up to a 5 year parliament
Thats the problem Labour are going to have. Lot of you guys are passionatly opposed to the government but how often does anyone on here ever say Vote Labour? It's all SNP or Greens or Ernie giving us a lecture on Marxist theory. But hardly ever does anyone nail their colours to the mast with Messers Miliband and Balls. They are going to lose.
But the problem with labour is that they're so frightened of causing offence, they're not actually for anything. You can't nail your colours to the mast, if the mast is made of jelly.
But the problem with labour is that they're so frightened of causing offence, they're not actually for anything. You can't nail your colours to the mast, if the mast is made of jelly.
They're going to lose
They're going to lose
Of course. There is an alternative political position to tory dogma, and they're miserably failing to articulate it in a doomed attempt to be all things to all men.
They're going to lose
So are the Tories. Remember; they didn't win last time. Despite acting like they got a landslide. The lib dems will be wiped out at the next election. I think we'd better get used to the idea of hung parliaments. I can't see it going any other way. Despite Labour gifting Dave the most laughable leader in the parties history
So are the Tories. Remember; they didn't win last time
The Prime Minister of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is The Right Honourable David Cameron MP. I dont think it really matters that he doesnt meet your definition of winning.
Interesting idea, that the Lib Dems are en-route to electoral annhilation at the next General Election...
Then followed up with quite a few comments about the LDs being the only effective opposition to the more rightist Tory plans, and acting as some sort of modifier / balance to the more outlandish Tory ideas.
Sounds clear to me, the intelligent, articulate and well informed British electorate will see the value in the role played in the coalition Govt...
Oh, bugger, I new their was a flaw in this democracy idea 🙁
ETA
The Prime Minister of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is The Right Honourable David Cameron MP. I dont think it really matters that he doesnt meet your definition of winning.
In practice, sadly, you are right - this country has had too many elected dictatorships - Thatcher esp, and Blair's warmongerring.
However, as an eternal idealist, it would be nice consider a little bit of "representation" at the heart of Government...
A coalition does more to this end than the other recent majority administrations, IMO
The lib dems will be wiped out at the next election. I think we'd better get used to the idea of hung parliaments.
bit of a non-sequitur that.
If the LibDems are wiped out then there's [i]less[/i] likelihood of a hung parliament as the alternative parties are unlikely to amount to a sufficiently sized total to get in the way of two-party "hegemony" again.
A coalition does more to this end than the other recent majority administrations, IMO
I agree. My preference, depending on the leadership would be
1. Tory-Lib coalition
2. Tory
3. Labour-Lib
4. Labour
Though if you put the Blairites in sole charge of the Labour Party and told the unions to get lost I'd move Labour up to #3 or even #2.
I think it was a programme I was listening to about the German political system. Their coalition governments are made up of several parties some of which have been in power 20+ years. This has held to much better long-term policies and planning, and not the short-term policies our 2 party system creates. Do we need more strong parties in the UK?
However, as an eternal idealist, it would be nice consider a little bit of "representation" at the heart of Government...
More John Prescott's?? Please save us!!
The good news is that the Tories are revealing their true colours as swivel-eyed self-interested loons who have a pathological need to dismantle/privatise - i.e. "the nasty party" of old.
...as opposed to those swivel-eyed self-interested loons who have a pathological need to intervene/nationalise - i.e. "the nasty party" of old
Sounds like a coalition really is a good idea then - hadn't thought about it that way 😉
i think they will legitimately be able to say "our road tax pays a company to charge us to use the roads"
THERE.IS.NO.SUCH.THING.AS.ROAD.TAX
How many more times before this sinks in, eh?
The Prime Minister of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is The Right Honourable David Cameron MP. I dont think it really matters that he doesnt meet your definition of winning.
The conservatives polled (IIRC) about 23% of the electorate's vote, so he's hardly representing the people.
As an aside, the conservatives think that unions should achieve greater than 50% of their membership vote before striking.
The good news is that the Tories are revealing their true colours as swivel-eyed self-interested loons who have a pathological need to dismantle/privatise - i.e. "the nasty party" of old.
Like [url= http://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/andrew-robertson/will-private-interests-of-peers-swell-vote-for-englands-health-bill ]this[/url]?
More than one in four Conservative peers - 62 out of the total of 216 - and many other members of the House of Lords have a direct financial interest in the radical re-shaping of the NHS in England
No wonder the public don't trust politicians!
When you vote in a sovereign government, there seems to be little you can do when they break election promises and start to dismantle the way we live (which incidentally, may not have been the best way to do things anyhow) 1 in 4 workers in the civil service in some form or other, manufacturing moving abroad leaving us with a service sector, successive governments selling off the crown jewels, food and fuel going up, wages not so much and I wouldn't consider rising unemployment figures a bonus.
And what's with trying to get 50% of the youth through university? Used to be only 12% and now they've achieved 41%. Be alright if the majority were actually getting an education instead of a government mutilated curriculum, but when they show no interest, don't "read" their degree and then whinge their reference states, "X student attended x university and studied x course between x dates." When that reference can't get them a job, jobs which needed A levels 15 years ago and now needing degrees, they don't know what to do with themselves after wasting 3 years of their life getting pissed and ending up dressing the same as everyone else, listening to the same music and with little interest in reading for leisure or any hard work that won't immediately benefit them (teach to test system to blame.)
Coalitions are the way forward if we look to the EU. This is our first voyage into the unknown and they better not mess it up, although it looks like they are going to. The population of this country is deeply apathetic and are going to let the government (whoever they are) do whatever they feel they want to, and with the lobbyists and their money, you can bet it's not going to help the man on the street, even though you'd think that if there is more money going round there is more chance of it getting in their pockets.
The conservatives polled (IIRC) about 23% of the electorate's vote
What did the party you voted for poll?
The conservatives polled (IIRC) about 23% of the electorate's vote, so he's hardly representing the people.
Just like Tony and Gordon after 2005 (actually they got an even lower proportion than that - oh and none of the public ever voted for Gordon as PM).
http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/voting-intention/yougov
Currently the Tories would lose.
Yay! Now we just need Alex Salmond to permanently...go away.
ohnohesback - MemberThe much-heralded 'falling out' stories are but window dressing.
Absolutely. It tends to remind me how the US government periodically raps Israel of the back of the knuckles after Israel has committed a particularly outrageous act which shocks global opinion. It is of course a completely meaningless exercise and Israel is fully aware that they have nothing to worry about.
.
Mr Woppit - MemberIt used to be the case that government Capital Projects were a useful tool to help regenerate moribund economies. This of course, was predicated on governments being able to afford them. This is not the case today.
Immediately after the end of WW2 Britain was absolutely skint and extremely in debt. And yet it was precisely during this period that the British government committed itself to one of the greatest spending projects of all time - the creation of the National Health Service. And of course the welfare state.
[img] 
[/img]
It is precisely when the economy is up Shit Creek without a paddle that "government Capital Projects" are so useful.
.
BTW mcboo, I'm deeply touched that you've alleviated me to such a position, that you are now suggesting the only alternative to the Tories, LibDems, and Labour, is the SNP, Greens, and Ernie.
But truly, despite being deeply touched and honoured, I'm not worthy - I'm just a simple building worker who likes to occasionally ride a bike. But thanks anyway 8)
Just for the record, in case you weren't aware, I supported the Greens in 2010 (previously I supported the LibDems until Clegg became leader) And certainly up until yesterday my probable intention was to support the Greens on 2015 (certainly with respect to my constituency - elsewhere might have resulted in a different conclusion) Although since yesterday I have become particularly interested in the coalition healthcare professionals who intend to field candidates in targeted seats. IMO they have the potential to represent the most positive development in British politics for decades. I will certainly follow how they develop closely, and hopefully if things take off I'll make a commitment to help them in their election work, But very early days yet.
**** me. Is that a voter who considers the candidates rather then voting the bloody same each and every time based on some political dogma?
oh and none of the public ever voted for Gordon as PM).
is that because we dont vote for the PM ?
and hopefully if things take off I'll make a commitment to help them in their election work, But very early days yet.
Democracy in action that is. Not sure how a doctor running in a Labour/Tory marginal helps the left but who knows.
BTW my brother in law is a doctor, he'd go way further than the government in restructuring the NHS. Would have charges for seeing your GP for example, much like Germany and France. Doesnt think he is at all unusual in the profession in wanting to see that introduced. Doctors will do what they think benefits them, that was true when they opposed the very formation of the NHS, and it is true today.
E-L be careful reading ukpublicspending.co.uk and other graphs on the UK. They all have a sneaky habit of showing artifical figures (eh excluding bank bailout, unfunded pension liabilities).
Even if current plans are implemented we will be over 100% in 2-3 years time at around £1.5 trillion, then add the bank bailouts and we are £2.2trillion (so getting around 150% GDP in the graph), then £1.1 trillion of unfunded pensions.....and it doesn't look quite so rosy.
And of course Gov projections assume Europe sorts itself out (where is are those nice marines that we can tell that to?)
Not sure how a doctor running in a Labour/Tory marginal helps the left but who knows.
And I'm not sure how having Labour win an election helps the Left.
That's two us confused then.
E-L be careful reading ukpublicspending.co.uk and other graphs on the UK.
I deliberately post graphs to wind you, and others, up teamhurtmore. I'm wicked like that.
I deliberately post graphs to wind you, and others, up teamhurtmore. I'm wicked like that.
Everyone knows it's not the spankiest graph, but the longest sentence with the most clauses in it that wins, non? 😀
He wants his 5 minute,s of fame so he will put up and shut up and do as his tory masters tell him what he can say ie just enought that some people believe he has some say in this government.
This government hasn't even started with the real cut backs yet , how long before depending where you live will determine how much dole money you get ? Because the amount of people that they are going to put out of work and the tax cuts for the rich is going to cost a lot of money that the low and middle class tax payers will have to find as it won't be the rich .
Hopefully Clegg will find his backbone and force another election and if this happens and the Torys get back in then the people in this country deserve all that will happen to them .
Teamhurtmore - unfunded (sic) pension liabilities are not debts and are mainly imaginary, bank bailouts are purchases of assets and have value in large part so are not debts either
THERE.IS.NO.SUCH.THING.AS.ROAD.TAXHow many more times before this sinks in, eh?
Sorry, I thought it was obvious that I was predicting what the average driver is likely to say (but obviously not). I know it and you know it but they don't.
And if it is used directly to pay for roads then the percieved strength of their arguement will grow.
ernie_lynch - Member. E-L be careful reading ukpublicspending.co.uk and other graphs on the UK. I deliberately post graphs to wind you, and others, up teamhurtmore. I'm wicked like that.
Surely not! 😉 No-one winds each up on here!! But you gave the game away with Argie, I'm afraid!! It doesn't vaguely wind me up anymore. But hat's off to you, you still seem to ruffle Z11's feathers though, especially yesterday with national pay awards. I was amazed at his stamina/the fact he missed the wind up.
Sorry TJ they are both liabilities (or did you take a sabbatical and work for RBS for a while?)
Not debts tho. 🙂 Liabilities - do you include the next 50 years public sector pay? You are including the pensions. Do you include Trident? Do you include the cost of decommissioning the nuclear power stations? Do you include the cost of crossrail?
TJ - may I suggest the ONS and a read of their definitions (and why they hide, sorry exclude, financial interventions) as I know you wont believe me?
Teej doesn't think bank bailouts are debts which is a problem because an independent Scotland is going to be saddled with the rotting carcas that is the Royal Bank of Scotland. You guys enjoy yourselves with that.
Vote lib deam and get Tory
I've lived here for >20yrs and got to choose between Tessa Munt (LD) and David Heathcote Amory (Con); and picked Munt who won the seat.
I've met Tessa, liked her. She's got an answer to a question from a minister on my behalf. Responded to emails etc.
David never once showed his face in all those years, and bought manure for his constituency home's garden claimed back as expenses intended to support his London abode. Berk.
LDs were never going to be able to keep promises as the minor partner in the Con-LD coalition - the parties only have some liberalism in common, while they are completely at odds on the social progressive v.s conservative axis. But we do at least have a functioning government at this time of economic crisis.