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mcbooTranslators? We should be billing anyone who needs one. And not just for health provision....my local authority falls over backwards to provide free translators for anyone who doesnt speak English. Want to live here? You are very welcome, but learn the lingo or show us the colour of your money.
"We should be billing anyone who needs one"
No allowing for circumstances - including all people who need translators as a homogeneous group. So sterotyping on grounds of race and disadvataging those who do not have english as their first language
"my local authority [i]falls over backwards[/i] to provide free translators for anyone who doesnt speak English"
Pejorative use of terms
"Want to live here? You are very welcome, but learn the lingo or show us the colour of your money. "
Making sterotypical assumptions that people who don't speak english don't want to learn, thinly veiled " ****s go home" sentiment,
singletracksurfer are these people getting taxis paid for by the NHS?
is it a service only afforded to the poor or is it a general service?
And what about Mrs Evans from Wales who doesn't speek English and can no longer drive? Should she not get NHS tratment becasue she's not exactly like you?
The national languages of Wales are Welsh and English. So in the microscopic liklihood of someone in 2011 being able to speak Welsh but not English I'm sure the taxpayers of Wales would be happy to stump up for translators.
So let me get this straight. To question the right-on consensus on not bothering to require immigrants into the UK to learn the language BEFORE they come here I'm being overtly racist, is that what we're saying? And we wonder why parts of the country have communities living parralel lives* and white working class Labour voters voting BNP.
*Copyright Jack Straw MP
Sanchohowever back on track I am interested in reasoned arguments on where NHS costs can be saved.
Concentration of services into larger units will save money and improve outcomes, return to a universally managed and planned set up will save cost ( no more foundation hospitals) end all private involvement will save costs and improve outcomes
close small A&E units will save costs and improve outcomes
Get effective management in place, stop political interference
To question the right-on consensus on not bothering to require immigrants into the UK to learn the language BEFORE they come here I'm being overtly racist, is that what we're saying?
Not overtly IMO - although others on here disagree - just the unthinking insidious racism that runs as a common undercurrent.
No refugees that don't speak english? What about the boy from afghanistan who did some guiding for the UK forces and is now in fear of his life? Should he be refused entry because he does not speak english?
how about the wife of a Gurka Soldier? who has never learnt english even tho her husband gave his all for ourt country?
Sancho - My own experiences of BRI have been pretty poor 😯
The taxi thing can be pretty hit and miss and can litteraly depend at a local level whether that service has 'asked' for a budget for it. So one service in one region may offer it, another may not. Again shows up the inefficiencies of the NHS. Still it is cheaper the getting the local ambulance trust to do patient transport.
TJ - Are you saying that it is right that 3rd generation immigrants still can not speak English and therefore never step out of their house? Theres multicultural integrated Britain for you. IMO all the PC brigade and agenda that goes on in the UK is doing nothing to help social integration in the UK and will lead to social unrest in the future.
"close small A&E units will save costs and improve outcomes
Get effective management in place, stop political interference"
God I actually agree with 2 things TJ has said!
Ah, some sense! But how does this reconcile with:Get effective management in place, [b]stop political interference[/b]
return to a universally managed and planned set up...end all private involvement
If I understand this point correctly, you are advocating no private sector involvement and a return to a universally managed and planned model. I assume therefore that this would be a public sector model. I don't want to debate the =/- of the idea, merely want to understand how this would eradicate political interference?
This is a non-controversial question BTW (even though you are still absurdly overplaying the racist card)
No I am not saying that at all. I have explained my position. where did I say it was acceptable? What I am saying is a blanket ban on translators is discriminatory
Do you know of any 3rd generation immigrants who don't speak english?
I've rarely heard Mrs mW talk about using translators at work (NHS). Outpatients tend to bring an English speaker with them if they think they are likely to have difficulties and most other problems are solved by finding a member of staff that also speaks the same language. One of the benefits of recruiting from the local community is you tend to get staff that have a similar ethnic background to your patients.
As for transport, again it's a rarity and only really used when necessary. In her old role she had to do a lot of assessments of elderly patients in their homes in order to see how they would cope when released from the hospital and what could be put in place to make things a little easier for them. For these visits they would generally use a black cab as they have wheelchair ramps. From the outside looking in it looks like a luxury but it was the most effective and practical tool for the job and far cheaper than keeping a vehicle on permanent standby.
Having served alongside the Gurkhas I can assure you that translation services are built in to the military covenant we are bound by. All Nepali families have constant access to English translators via the Unit Families Office.
And refugees, yes I do think we have an obligation to provide translators for them.
Some of my [s]best friends[/s] parents-in-law/wife/kids are black/Indian/mixed race.
"Do you know of any 3rd generation immigrants who don't speak english?"
Personally no, but apparently it is very common in the region where I live (and experienced daily by hospital and primary care staff) and hence why Anne Cryer was trying to do some thing about it. Alot of folk tried to call her racist too.
As I say come out of your ivory tower in Edinburgh and you might be surprised how different other parts of the real world are 🙂
Muppet - "Outpatients tend to bring an English speaker with them if they think they are likely to have difficulties"
Legally staff are not allowed to use friends or relatives as translators, even if the patient gives consent, its a big no no.
So McBoo- you don't want to stop all translators then - only to some people that you judge to be underserving? Dunno if thats better than you stated earlier or not.
Funkydunc - apparently? 🙄 lets see some actual evidence please.
I have lived all over the UK and in other parts of the world - and have worked with some of the most disadvantaged people around. I am in no ivory tower.
Legally staff are not allowed to use friends or relatives as translators, even if the patient gives consent, its a big no no.
What - where do you get that idea from?
so in the scheme of things translators and taxis are small change.
But still we all have an opinion.
Still think there should be some charge for translators.
I just dont see it as the job of the NHS to provide this.
(it may help in the handling of the patient, but its not part of the treatment and thats where the NHS should concentrate its funds.)
In my non-racist opinion.
sancho - so its ok for non english speaker to have inferior service?
The local PCT and practicing Doctors. You might see nurses doing it but not Doctors.
As I say come out of your ivory tower in Edinburgh
Out of interest, is the fact that Scottish universities are applying different pricing depending on nationality descriminatory and/or racist?
As this appears to be going down the all to familiar racism route........
IME there is huge abuse of the taxi and PTS system in taking people to and from hospitals. I have first hand of experience of people telling me that they [b]had[/b] to get a PTS ambulance to take them to and from, when they would have been quite happy getting a lift from a relative.
The taxi system is also widely abused. I see 'regulars' and drunks stepping into taxis all the time. You may not be aware but hospitals will provide a taxi if you (supposedly) have no way of getting home and have no money to pay. Fine if it is genuine but there is a % of people who will never repay the debt.
Don't get me started on women in labour who look upon ambulances as taxis. No money for a taxi and yet new baby about to be brought into the world, car on drive and husband/partner/relative who couldn't lay off the booze for a few days just in case he needed to drive. 👿
BTW regarding wasting money - a rather obvious basic requirement in my job is the ability to speak, read and write English. Can anyone tell me the point of a recruitment leaflet which is available in 8 different languages?
They wouldnt get inferior service,
But would need to pay for a translator.
A comment earlier said that if in an EU country and you needed a translator that service would be provided and charged to the NHS via E111.
I think that makes sense.
we have no idea about racism in this country. i have a few friends from Malaysia, they laugh at our pathetic attempts at racism.
"the NHS is a bit squeezed, should it be financially responsible for translation?"
doesn't even come close.
so its ok for non english speaker to have inferior service?
Is it arrogant of a Brit to demand that English is spoken in a hospital abroad? Frankly, yes in my opinion. Yes, we would have an inferior service in a linguistic sense, but that would be my/our choice. I doubt that the medical outcome would differ though.
double post
I inurjed myself whilst on holiday in France, I know basic French but not medical standard and struggled to converse with the doctor who only spoke French, I was not offered a translator.
Who was more apologetic, me because I couldn't speak French or the doctor becuase there was no one to help me? Well me, obviously, because I am in France where they speak French, the doctor, frankly, couldn't care less.
Was this racist? No, in France I would expect to need to speak French to make myself understood. In the UK English is the national language so to expect people to undertand English is neither unreasonable or racist.
NHS - where should it stop paying for services
How about IVF, Not trolling just curious for views. I've no kids and no interest in having any. But is IVF a matter of life and death or even an essential service, I know people who wanted to but were not able to have kids and they've had happy lives, either through adoption or just reconciling themselves to not having kids. Thoughts
Woody - Agree with you completely. Unfortunately people see the NHS as a right, and that it doesnt cost them any thing so it doesnt matter. IMO people need to realise that it does cost them.
Getting back to the question about providing taxis ...
A few months ago I moved to another part of the country and unfortunately a few weeks ago I had a bike accident that resulted in a stay in hospital.
When I was due to be discharged, I asked if a taxi could be organised and they would need to take a cheque as I had no cash in the house. A taxi was arranged to take me the 30 miles home and I did not have to pay. The ignorant taxi driver made no attempt to open a door for me, or to put my bags in the car, despite my having an arm in a sling and being wobbly.
Two weeks later I had a follow-up appointment so checked out public transport which would have involved several buses and a train. Due to the head injury, I ended up getting a taxi there and back at a cost of £70.
Thing is, it's not always possible for folk to help out so what's wrong with taking responsibility for yourself? I never dreamt of asking the NHS to take me to and from for the follow-up appointment.
But what I would question is why I was sent to a hospital so far away when there was one nearer.
As regards the elderly, my mother has needed regular operations for many years and it's always been me that takes her despite the considerable driving it necessitates.
Sancho - MemberThey wouldnt get inferior service,
But would need to pay for a translator.
breathtaking in its stupidity.
What happens if you can't pay? And it clearly is an inferior service as they have to pay to get information others get for free - so as far as you are concerned discriminating against people on grounds of ethic origin is acceptable?
woody good point on the taxi thing, I still cant understand where the NHS draws the line.
and any free offer will be abused by some and not used by others who maybe should use the service.
The whole post FFS - I am not the only one to see it.
it makes a series of assumptions that are sterotypical based on race.
Do I really need to deconstruction the whole statement? Its a waste of time as you will still consider me and the others who agree with me to be wrong. Will you listen with an open mind?
So you just shout Racist! and think that gets you the moral high ground without in any way having to back it up. Because you have attained ethical Nirvana, you are omniscient and can "see" what others cannot.
You'd have gone down a treat in the 1980s selling Socialist Worker in Potterrow EH1.
OP asked where the NHS should stop their services. Thought it meant all their services (including health care), not just taxi's & translation costs.
Sorry, will leave you all talking about racism then and I won't mention translators needed to interpret the hospital staff before I leave then 😉
lunge - team hurtmore
do you not understand the differnce between going on holiday to a county and emigration?
"But what I would question is why I was sent to a hospital so far away when there was one nearer"
Probably because the centre you were taken to had more specialist experience in your type of injury. Or it could be that the local hospital had no spare beds...
McBoo - I did deconstruct it, Note several other people have said that yoru stetment is racist as well as it clearly is
TandemJeremy - Member
mcboo
Translators? We should be billing anyone who needs one. And not just for health provision....my local authority falls over backwards to provide free translators for anyone who doesnt speak English. Want to live here? You are very welcome, but learn the lingo or show us the colour of your money.
"We should be billing anyone who needs one"
No allowing for circumstances - including all people who need translators as a homogeneous group. So sterotyping on grounds of race and disadvataging those who do not have english as their first language
"my local authority falls over backwards to provide free translators for anyone who doesnt speak English"
Pejorative use of terms
"Want to live here? You are very welcome, but learn the lingo or show us the colour of your money. "
Making sterotypical assumptions that people who don't speak english don't want to learn, thinly veiled " ****s go home" sentiment,
thisisnotaspoon - MemberOhhh, and I agree with TJ, I don't even thing it's thinly hidden, it's pretty overt.
Sue_W - MemberTJ and Rachel +1
As for the 'learn the language' brigade - maybe you need to think a bit first. I worked as a volunteer TEFL teacher for a while, teaching women basic English. Most of these were trying to learn as quickly as they could, but it takes quite a while to learn a new language well enough to use in a hospital situation. So what are people supposed to do while they are still learning the language and they get ill / injured / pregnant etc? Many people can't afford to pay for a translator - should they be just left to suffer?
The lack of basic humanity amongst some of you amazes me sometimes.
[i]"But what I would question is why I was sent to a hospital so far away when there was one nearer"
Probably because the centre you were taken to had more specialist experience in your type of injury. Or it could be that the local hospital had no spare beds...[/i]
This is what I was on about.
The centralisation of services can improve outcomes, but essentially places a greter amount of the problem of transport onto the patient.
As far as beds being available....well now... If you accept that the NHS has to make savings, become more 'efficient', then the first thing you could look at is spare capacity. We used to be able to deal with surges in admissions because we had spare beds, but this is not the case anymore and this winter will prove to be an interesting one in terms of capacity, certainly in critical care, but also in other hospital departments.
TJ
its not a stupid statement, just a reflection of what I see in other countries around the world.
The question is where do we draw the line, or should we not draw the line and provide everything free.
Its a difficult topic.
Again you are talking about discrimnation, and I dont follow your argument.
Ethnicity and knowledge of a language are not the same.
do you not understand the differnce between going on holiday to a county and emigration?
TJ, In undertand it fully, hence should I choose to emigrate to France for arguments sake I would make sure I learnt so speak French as I would be staying there for an extended period of time. If I didn't I would understand that there would be problems in doing a wide variety of things including visiting a hospital.
Yes - I emigrated and lived overseas and accepted that [b]it was my responsibility to fit in, not the other way round.[/b] Plus it would have been very arrogant to have argued otherwise. I was also educated in Scotland but fear that discrimination will prevent my children doing the same.
BTW - how would a centralised, planned NHS avoid political interference. How do you ensure economies of scale > diseconomies and watse?
Legally staff are not allowed to use friends or relatives as translators, even if the patient gives consent, its a big no no.
I have no reason to doubt that what you say is correct, but going back to the original point, there just isn't the money in the local healthcare trust to pay for translators in the numbers that would be required, staff have to make do with what they have available to them and sometimes that is a relative of the patient.
Oh look you've got a little gang, bless. Judean People's Front or those other guys?
A few observations about translators, from my experience:
1. It is the Police who spend more on translators than anyone else - should victims of crime foot the bill for their own translators too?
2. In mental health, where I work, I would argue that it is much, much better to have an appropriately trained and competent translator than not. Apart from anything else, sorting out a translator might not be at the top of your priority list when you're suicidal or having a psychotic episode. Either way, for all concerned, I’d rather each party knew what the other was saying.
3. In some cases translators actually help integrate people who have been very isolated in their communities. Surely access to the services and facilities in the wider community are essential if we want people to integrate?
[i]I have no reason to doubt that what you say is correct, but going back to the original point, there just isn't the money in the local healthcare trust to pay for translators in the numbers that would be required, staff have to make do with what they have available to them and sometimes that is a relative of the patient.[/i]
For things like 'Are you warm enough?', 'have you got pain?', 'Do you know where you are?' relatives can be a godsend, but for things like confidential medical information, consent for operations, anything with a medico-legal implication, relatives should not be used.
I have been in a situation where an 8 year old girl was expected to translate for her mum who was about to have complex gynaecological surgery; I had to say that this was not acceptable and delay things by a few hours... just not right.
Similarly, husbands cannot give consent for their wives surgery and so on.
Sorry I haven't read though the above, but have we established if Andrew Lansley is racist yet?
[url] http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-15164373 [/url]
Surely [s]access to the services and facilities in the wider community are[/s] learning the local language is essential if we want people to integrate?