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singapore is a poor comparison with the uk
it has a much smaller, younger population
it also benefits from a much healthier lifestyle and low penetrance of western diet - the government controls this tightly
it also benefits from a much healthier lifestyle and low penetrance of western diet - the government controls this tightly
Oh there is always an excuse. You made this up. Singaporeans smoke like crazy, drink too much, eat salt drenched Chinese food and dont take any exercise.
Also singapore has a significant number of migrant workers who are not covered. the 3.5% of GDP is not the whole cost either - it is only the cost for the 31% of healthcare stae funded so the total costs are similar to us
I would be interested in knowing more about he Japanese system because it is cheap and seems to be comprehensive but i know nothing more than that about it
mcboo - you do relise in Germany you pay more taxes than us then you have to pay compulsory health insurance on top (of IIRC 15% on income) as your taxes do not conver most healthcare
Look I dont know that these current reforms are the right ones, I don't. What I do believe is that health provision is just another service for which I am a consumer. A lot of people think the NHS is sacred ground and should be immune from market forces. I remember thinking like that but I have changed my mind.
Almost everyone it eh health services are against them - this is unprecedented. the royal college of GPs even - an non trade union non political body as well as the BMA ad so on.
ye the NHS should be immune from market forces - it is a natural monopoly and no market can possibly work in healthcare.
People make informed decisions all the time, but only once they know they have a choice.
they dont see the examples I cite above there are areas where you know f all and you cannot make any choice beyond trusting the expert to fly the plane, fix your brake etc. Are they going to send me on a medical degree and do all the training to make me informed ? What if it is just so complicated I dont understand..I dont want you to explain programming language and protocols to me just fix the effing computer
at least you accept you just think choice is great and like the hypothetical public sector worker you lazily caricature there is no debating with you as you have made your choice
sometimes markets bring excellent consumer outcomes sometimes they bring really poor ones. The skill is know when to use which and not to be so ideologically motivated you always think one is best no matter what the scenario
The World Health Organization ranks Singapore's healthcare system as 6th overall in the world in its World Health Report
Why on earth do you want to provide a link which says that Singapore's healthcare is ranked at number 6 by WHO ?
Shouldn't we be looking at number one mcboo......or don't you think Britain is worthy of such excellence?
Go on. Tell me......why "Singapore" ?
Has it anything to do with Dan Hannan ?
Go on. Tell me......why "Singapore" ?Has it anything to do with Dan Hannan ?
mmmmmmmmm Nope. My first child was born there. I almost died there.
Almost everyone it eh health services are against them - this is unprecedented. the royal college of GPs even - an non trade union non political body as well as the BMA ad so on.
This is why I'm not sure that these are the right reforms. As I understand it the plan is to put the GPs in charge, but the GPs either dont want to be in charge, or they do and would structure the reforms a different way.
ye the NHS should be immune from market forces - it is a natural monopoly and no market can possibly work in healthcare.
Possibly is putting it a bit strongly. So much so that it suggest you don't approach the discussion with an open mind.
My first child was born there. I almost died there.
So you think Britain should look at the Singapore model because of that ?
Unfortunately I reckon most people might not be bothered by your personal experiences and would prefer to look at the country which was ranked at number one by WHO.
Most GPs dont want to be in cheapen. Also most other healthcare professionals know the proposed sytem makes no sense 5 new layers of beurocracy to pay for. Billions to set up and billions annual costs
Its designed to privatise the system. GPs have neither the skills nor wish to manage the service so contract it out to management companies. The services commissioned by the management companies can be commissioned from anywhere so the same healthcare companies will create units to cherrypick work and then refer patients to these units leaving the NHS hospitals with the difficult and complex stuff only thus fragmenting the service making co operative learning impossible, making pallnning impossible ruining medicaland nursing training.
mcboo - how can market forces work in a natural monopoly? How can market forces work when the vast majority of transactions cannot be a result of any sort of meaningful choice?
I dont know how anyone could seriously consider healthcare a monopoly. If I needed say a hernia done, how many hospitals in London could my GP recommend? 10?.....20?
You and other health workers might LIKE the fact that NHS Scotland operates as a monopoly, but then you would, wouldnt you?
So you think Britain should look at the Singapore model because of that ?Unfortunately I reckon most people might not be bothered by your personal experiences
No, but you asked why I brought up Singapore. Thats why, my own personal experience. You might not be bothered by it but it's my opinion which I formed all by myself. I'd rather not be told what to do by you or anyone else.
Thank god we all live in London and have a vast choice of hospitals close to us.
FFS it is not like TJ wont have a job [ or any other health worker] if this happens so what exactly is their vested interest you keep going on about. Do you perhaps mean expertise or knowledge?
You are just going oh look the people who work in this industry dont want the change and then you insult them then give us your polemic on them and choice. Repeating your obvious disdain for the public sector and its employees ad nauseum gives it no more weight than the first time you mentioned it/ insulted the workers.
Your are letting your politics and philosophy lead this discussion I think you and TJ should have some discussion on this
Enjoy
I'd rather not be told what to do by you or anyone else. That why I am forcing choice on you whether you want it or not
FTFY
mcboo - MemberI dont know how anyone could seriously consider healthcare a monopoly. If I needed say a hernia done, how many hospitals in London could my GP recommend? 10?.....20?
all of whom ( should be) cooperative and share knowledge and experience to bring everything to the best standard so are offering the same "product" at the same price hence its a natural monopoly.
Introduce competition and you remove the cooperation and drive down standards
Your are letting your politics and philosophy lead this discussion I think you and TJ should have some discussion on this
I have been warned off for obsessive arguing and as this thraad has arguably 😉 reched that point so shall bow out as all possible relevant points have been made.
I will just draw attention to teamhurtmores avoidance of answering this
Please answer this
You want there to be patient choice in the NHS
so how is the person living with dementia supposed to make a choice?
How is the person with learning difficulties suppose to make a choice?
How is the person with severe mental health issues supposed to make a choice?Or for that matter the old lady who is scared and in pain etc etc.
this is why the concept of patient choice is at best meaningless adn at worst increases health inequlities
Junkyard - Member
so these changes have been designed by the Tory party to make outcomes better for the poor bugger in the East End of Glasgow who doesn't know how the system works
Designed by the Tory party?
Designed by those in the private sector who stand to gain £billions: [url= http://www.****/news/article-2099940/NHS-health-reforms-Extent-McKinsey--Companys-role-Andrew-Lansleys-proposals.html ]rubbing their grubby mits at the thought of privatisation[/url]
all of whom ( should be) cooperative and share knowledge and experience to bring everything to the best standard so are offering the same "product" at the same price hence its a natural monopoly.Introduce competition and you remove the cooperation and drive down standards
Well thats not the same thing as saying healthcare cant operate with competition. You're just saying you dont like competition per se. We know TJ that you prefer collectivist solutions to pretty much any issue, but that doesnt get you anywhere. You might as well just say you want to turn the clock back to 1979 and take the country back to closed shops and an economy dominated by state monopolies.
collectivism =/= state monopolies
You are just saying you love choice and hat the state an the public sector.
he ha snot said he dislikes competition per se he has explained with an example of why it would hamper patients outcome in a naturally monopoly.
Your stupid argument about him wanting to turn it back to 1979 adds nothing to your view and makes you look a tad hysterical,prone to hyperbole and bluster and of course letting you political and philosophical views cloud your thinking
You may disagree with him but the caricature of him is inaccurate and lazy and a petty poor to say the least.
Why dont you just say you are right wing, pro choice and think competition makes everything better for everyone.
you dont care what anyone says as that is what you think
Shame why not e-mail TJ on this and let me know what happens when an immovable object meets an irresistible force.
Thats why, my own personal experience. You might not be bothered by it but it's my opinion which I formed all by myself. I'd rather not be told what to do by you or anyone else.
😀 Who's telling you [i]"what to do"[/i] grumpybollox ?
I just pointed out that Britain is unlikely to adopt the Singapore healthcare model on the basis that you almost died in Singapore.
If you had commented that WHO considers the Singapore healthcare model to be the best in the world, then there might have been some merit to your argument.
Shame why not e-mail TJ on this and let me know what happens when an immovable object meets an irresistible force.
Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Why dont you just say you are right wing, pro choice and think competition makes everything better for everyone.
Socially liberal, economically conservative rather than "right-wing" but yes definately pro market choice. A lot of people are you know.
Oh and thanks for the aggression and abuse. I'd take it seriously if I could understand what you are on about.
A lot of people are you know.
19% of people according to the latest opinion poll on the matter.
Sorry TJ watching a film. Answer, "they can't." x3
Personal experience is interesting though Ernie. You have lots of insights on Arg economics and military affairs from personal experience and family links, so the rest of us can learn from them. Perhaps others can learn from McBoo.
Right - so the concept of patient choice is fatally flawed then as allowing choice would mean those vulnerable people get the stuff thats left once others get their choice.
Unless of course you believe its right the powerful get the best f everything.
Now I really must leave the thread
teamhurtmore, I know bugger all about economics, and despite my stint in the military, I know bugger all about military matters.
I know how to swing a hammer though.
Really?Introduce competition and you remove the cooperation and drive down standards
Healthcare under the NHS monoply produces wildly varying degrees of success depending on where you're treated and it's not all down to money.
I wouldn't trust the Tories with anything let alone this bill but I think we all agree that healthcare in the UK needs to be improved. The French have the best system ( according to Wiki and WHO)and spend more. They have choice for how/where they are treated and people with dementia etc are covered AKAIK and it's an insurance based system with the private sector hevaily involved. Shouldn't we working towards a similar/better model even if it may cost more-and surely we can trim costs on bureauocracy and admin better than the French?
There are too many dogmatic views and vested interests on both sides of this debate.
Socially liberal, economically conservative rather than "right-wing" but yes definately pro market choice. A lot of people are you know.
well ernie answered that i think a survey of views of the NHS would show yours to be a minority view. I think socially liberal and economically conservative and pro competition is a pretty accurate short description of what it is to be right wing
Oh and thanks for the aggression and abuse. I'd take it seriously if I could understand what you are on about.
someone should invent a word for when someone on the internet accuses someone else of aggression and abuse whilst being abusive [ gently and in the loosest sense] towards the person they accuse. To be Mc booed perhaps?
It is obvious you dont understand me if you think I have been abusive. I suppose you think your caricature of public sector workers and "vested interest" is lovely , accurate and free from abuse and invective.
Sorry I did not mean to confuse you, I should have seen how it was so easily done, please forgive me 😉
Well, we can all to and fro on here as much as we like but what's that gonna achieve really? I'm not happy with the bill, think the motives behind it are quite sinister and scary. Never thought id say this (shudder) but that DM article makes interesting reading and only reinforces my opinions on the matter.
Only thing I can prob do about it is write to the relevant MPs and tell them I'm not happy with it..
Not that they'll prob care, I didn't vote for a Tory or Libdem candidate, and I'm probably in an area they don't really care about too much.. But I'm still gonna try.