[Closed] NHS Privitisation is coming

Thank you for your thoughtful dissection of my post in easy to chew segments mrmo. Truly I'm not worthy of it.

I will simply point out that I have managed perfectly well not having either Labour or the Tories as my preferred electoral choice since 1995, if everyone else had agreed with me then neither would have formed a government. So if I can vote other than Labour or Tory, then everyone else can. We have Labour or Tory governments purely because people want Labour or Tory governments.

ernie, whilst i agree that if people voted on mass then we might get away from the see-saw we have, i truly believe that most people do not vote labour or tory for any reason other than, I have always done it. And because so many people will not change, you land up with the election being determined by a handful of voters in a handful of seats.

And yes i know the referendum failed....But it was a crap system being proposed. And for most people the current system is the only system they know and assume, as the UK is right and everyone else is wrong, the current system must be the best.

We have Labour or Tory governments purely because people want Labour or Tory governments.

Not strictly true. I'd give my vote towards a Labour government because I don't want a Tory government and that is the only realistic way of achieving that desire. Doesn't mean that I actually want a Labour government. I suppose I could always vote for the party that actually aligns with my own politics but that is throwing my vote away and making way for what will always be the greater of two evils.

I'd be happy for you to convince me that I'm talking bollox on this as it's something that I try to ratioanlise every time I go to vote.

if people voted on mass then we might get away from the see-saw we have

People do vote "on mass" .........30 million last election.

The problem you appear to have is that they are not voting correctly. Which whilst I won't dispute that, I'm not going to blame either Cameron or Brown for.

Doesn't mean that I actually want a Labour government.

Yes it does. You want a Labour government rather than a Tory government.

I vote purely on my "preferred electoral choice", it doesn't mean that support everything that the candidate says, or that I even like the party. Until 1995 I was supporting the Labour Party in elections, and yet I considered the Labour Party to be hopelessly inadequate and only supported it like a rope supports a hanged man.

So ernie, if you think all politicians from major parties are a bunch of crooks, who do you vote for to show your opinion? Knowing full well that a vote for the monster raving loony party isn't going to get them into power because most people will vote the same way every time there is an election.

Knowing full well that a vote for the monster raving loony party isn't going to get them into power

Ernie did... and they did 😯

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This thread encapsulates the problem of healthcare in the UK; the debate is politicised which simply turns it into a nonsense argument where points are scored and egos boosted or bruised and no one gets any kind of sensible answer or conclusion.

Two questions;

1.) Which country has the best healthcare system in the world?
2.) How do we make our system match that one?

Carry on....

Ok crikey, What is the best is a hard one, certainly not the US, expensive and incomplete coverage. The profit motive results in lots of extra tests. Loose your insurance loose your care, pay for all treatments etc. But if you have money the care is good.

Look at the NHS, there is rationing, there are waiting times, but everyone can get care when they need it, income is not relevant.

Which would i prefer, the UK model as it is. Is it perfect, of course not, can any healthcare system be perfect? unfortunately no, there can never be enough money to provide every treatment to every patient.

in other shocking news, pretty much the whole of primary care in England has been "privatised" for the last 40 years. GP's are mostly not employees of the NHS, instead they work for partnerships who pay them a salary and allow them to share in "profits". For some reason the NHS allows these private companies to borrow money (free) to make capital improvements to their buildings, and then retain the profit when buildings are sold.

Whilst everyone is getting their knickers in a twist over privatisation of failing hospitals in the secondary care sector, it's good to see that most people continue to overlook the largely private primary care sector.

I've had 3 punctures today, so am unable to muster any enthusiasm for debate.

The NHS is the best healthcare system we will achieve in the UK, and the Tories hate that, but when it's gone, it's gone.

The major problem with any debate about this is that rich people (and politicians, strangely enough) can afford not to give a shit. If the NHS was all there was, and everyone relied on it, I suspect that it would be rather better supported and rather better thought of.

Anyway, back to puncture mending.

1.) Which country has the best healthcare system in the world?

[i]What do you mean by best?
I assume the answer you're looking for is Cuba, no?[/i]

I don't know, it's a genuine question. Is healthcare in Cuba better than everywhere else? I was thinking of one of the Scandinavian countries, but I've not looked into it.

I think Cuba has some of the best medical education and doctors.
But also what is best? The most efficient? The cheapest? The shortest waiting lists?
There are different sytems across the globe. I don't think that there exists a "best" system, just a more acceptable to the voting public system.

[i]think Cuba has some of the best medical education and doctors[/i]

Again, not having a go, but does that equate to the best healthcare system?

I've pumped the tyre up, just waiting to see if I can get to 4 punctures in one day...

Again, not having a go, but does that equate to the best healthcare system?

But also what is best? The most efficient? The cheapest? The shortest waiting lists?
There are different sytems across the globe. I don't think that there exists a "best" system, just a more acceptable to the voting public system.

Possibly last year i stated the NHS was being broken up, all these so called new directorates, facilities and new name boards outside every hospital departmnent, they even have their own car parking spaces.

Then we have the new , as in brand new dr,s surgerys, that do a lot more than doctor, they have physio, ot, and chemists on site, smaller surgeries are being amalgamated into the new ones and they suddenly aquire a new branding, all ready for the sel off to health insurance comapnies, just like PFI shcools and roads have been either built and then paid for by the tax payer, or taken over, and then become pfi.

Now if i was over 50 anda mountainbiker,i would be seriously worried about care when im a bit older,and my ability to pay for an accident on a bike, and then theres the privatised care homes, for when people get really old, or over 65.

So ernie, if you think all politicians from major parties are a bunch of crooks, who do you vote for to show your opinion?

Don't put words into my mouth, I have never said that I think [i]"all politicians from major parties are a bunch of crooks",[/i] they are clearly not. As far as who I vote for, it really is going off the topic and it's something which I've commented on much more relevant threads.

With reference to Cuban healthcare provisions, it has long been established that not only does Cuba's healthcare system deliver first world care in a third world country, but at a fraction of the cost, something which other countries, including Britain, have looked into. And not only that, in some areas of medical research Cuba is a world leader. And all this has been achieved under cripplingly US sanctions which yes include, unbelievably, pharmaceutical supplies.

This article in the Daily Telegraph which quotes extensively, of all people, a director of the right-wing free-market Adam Smith Institute, highlights the extraordinary value for money that the healthcare system in Cuba provides :

[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/expathealth/4204119/Castros-Cuba-can-be-a-lesson-to-the-world.html ]Castro's Cuba can be a lesson to the world[/url]

We are failed Anglo-Saxons [i]and[/i] failed Scandinavians. 8)

ernie, sorry, didn't mean you think politicians are a bunch of crooks, that is my basic standpoint. I accept some aren't but far too many are in it for what they can get. You only have to consider the expenses fiasco.

My point is if you have no faith in any of the major parties then how do you express your opinion in a meaningful manner.

but yes it is digressing from the topic in hand.

However i don't believe any of the parties are actually good for the NHS, labour and the abuse of PFI has wasted vast sums of money, if the projects had been funded on balance sheet the long term costs would have been far smaller. And tories they seem hell bent on destroying the NHS for their friends in the private sector to make some money.

There is no evidence that Tory policies enjoy widespread support among the general public. In fact there is plenty of evidence to suggest the opposite. And let's not forget that, despite being in opposition for 13 years, Tory policies so unimpressed the electorate that they found themselves unable to form an effective government without the support of a rival party.

That is so true.

What are the chances of a drop in taxes if we privatise the NHS?

What are the chances of a drop in taxes if we privatise the NHS?

😆

Still having the politics debate when the real questions go unanswered.
What's the best, how do we move towards it?

totalshell - Member

here we have the best funded health care service in the world and all it gets is knocks.. sure money is tight but those spending the money have to spend it wiser money doesnt grow on trees..

Rubbish - we pay far less for our health care than most similar countries - and get far more.

healthcare for profit[u] always[/u] means more cost for poorer outcomes - [b]always[/b]

This is a determined ideological attempt to break up the health service in England ( as the con dems writ does not run in Scotland ( or Wales??))

the NHS is a fantastic system that provides great healthcare very cheaply. it is probably the most efficient in the world with priorities and rationing set by clinical need and effectiveness.

We get far better healthcare outcomes for far less money than the US yet the condems want to turn our system in to a us style system. It stinks to high heaven. Fight to protect your NHS or forever live to regret it

What are the chances of a drop in taxes if we privatise the NHS?

Zero.
But they believe they are doing a good job saving money
and considering they screwed half our health care budget on PFI Hospitals
last time they was in Parliament and also done a great job selling off our railways
and busses that some how the TAX Payer still supports when the private sector screws up
and you can see how well a good job they done there, including flogging off our social housing.

Still having the politics debate when the real questions go unanswered.
What's the best, how do we move towards it?

So you think "healthcare provisions" isn't political ?

Sometimes I truly despair........no wonder British politics is up Shit Creek without a paddle.

.

My point is if you have no faith in any of the major parties then how do you express your opinion in a meaningful manner.

The only reason I have no faith in the 3 major parties is that all 3 are now neo-liberal thatcherite parties. And as long as there is a social-democratic alternative to the neo-liberals, then I will vote social-democratic, I will never vote neo-liberal.

The NHS will never be safe under the control of neo-liberals, it will however be reasonably safe under social-democracy. Indeed it was a social-democratic agenda which initially created and sustained the NHS, under both Labour and Tory governments.

As far as my personal voting patterns are concerned :

http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/teachers-striking-again/page/14#post-2691703

Yes I know that the Green Party is automatically dismissed because "no one votes for them", but that is not my responsibility - if 10 million people voted for them they would probably form the next government. At the last general election a sufficient amount of people voted Green for them to get their first MP, then this year they won control of their first council, that's how things happen - people need to vote instead of complaining.

Btw the way the latest opinion polls suggest that support for the Green Party has trebled since May '10, although admittedly it's from a low 1% to a still low 3%, but that probably now makes them the 4th largest party in the UK and there is no reason why their support can't continue to grow.

Incidentally I only voted green in May '10 because their candidate was the only one on my ballot paper with a social-democratic agenda, elsewhere I might have voted differently, eg, in Wales I would have quite likely voted Plaid Cymru. But if people just start voting in sufficient numbers for a social-democratic alternatives, then this will have a profound effect on British politics. And as they see their own support starting to ebb away, the 3 major parties will start to change their own agendas, you can be pretty sure of that.

Mmmm. Telling us all how you voted is really, really interesting, but the question still remains. Yes, if you want to make it political then it will be political, but the problem is exactly that. The NHS is used as a political football, constantly, by both sides.

The answer lies in taking healthcare out of political debate and answering the above question.

If what Tandem has linked and true, which will effect everyone within the country
and no ones happy about it. Then some how we should link and include trade unions and the whole
of the country should stop, which would shut down the country and walk to Parliament
including local town halls to voice your concerns.

I just can't believe people voted for them again I just hope it will effect them worse.

My Dad would have died in the the Queens Hospital in Romford if I had not grabbed a
surgeon walking past on Boxing Day and thats a new PFI building.
They totally foooked up!!
And for some bizarre reason my parents won't take it further.

but the answer is going to be political to a point, whatever the answer part of it will be money and funding.

Do we pay what we are paying, do we increase taxes and follow the current methodology or do we cut funding and move towards an insurance system.

What needs to be done is to revisit all the PFI deals and figure out the real costs to the tax payer, and re-negoitiate where possible. Whether there should be a £10 charge for seeing a GP as a method or preventing reducing cancelled appointments, i can see some logic, but the moment you start charging anything, it will mean people who should be seeing the doctor will not go.

to answer your questions - the best? depends what for. 🙂

US does cancer care really well but has child mortality rates like the third world.

Netherlands has some very innovative dementia care but much of their elderly care is rather uninspired.

teh French like to stick all medicine up their bottoms. 🙂

Probably the best would be the NHS left alone from political interference and taking best practice from where they see it.

Mmmm. Telling us all how you voted is really, really interesting, but the question still remains. Yes, if you want to make it political then it will be political, but the problem is exactly that. The NHS is used as a political football, constantly, by both sides.

The Conservatives done the same with Interest rates until Labour gave control to the Bank of England

Probably the best would be the NHS left alone from political interference and taking best practice from where they see it.

Of course I appreciate that politics will impinge at some point, but beginning the debate by establishing political stances will end in failure as everyone refuses to listen to any other viewpoint.

The way forward is to start with what is best, then work out how to get there.

Try to get the best healthcare we can, rather than the best that fits with our political standpoint, because, in many ways, healthcare is more important than what colour tie we wear on election day.

mrmo - an insurance based system will cost more automatically - its more complex to administer.

Teh best thing to do with the NHS right now is have a moratorium on major reorganisations - they distract time and effort from the core business and achieve very little.

Then revise and revisit it the more stupid bits. Foundation hospital and any vestiges of the internal market. cooperation is a key element no competitician.

All PFI deals need to be revisited - all waste money.

Strengthen NICE, improve NHS management, strengthen accountability in the form of local health authorities or the equivalent.

Telling us all how you voted is really, really interesting

Well I'm glad that you found it so. I have to confess that when I eventually relented after being persistently harangued by mrmo about my voting, I hadn't figured that many people would be interested, so it's nice to know that at least 2 of you were.

TJ, my wife is a nurse in a LARGE Leeds hospital & am concerned about the OP. However I am also very concerned about why you aways seem to mis-spell 'the' IE, you almost always type 'teh' (or a derivative). Are you dylsexic, is your keyboard on the blink, or don't you read what youv'e typed?
I know It's trivial raelly but, you know.... 😉

esselgruntfuttock

Well - I would claim Dyslexia, my teachers labelled me lazy. "teh" is an oft typed misspelling. I do try to remember to spellcheck but sometimes forget. I probably don't see it either when I re read. There is certainly something wrong with my ability to use written language however

ernie i wasn't haranguing you about who you vote for, and i am not particularly interested, the point was merely with the current system if you want a change your vote is unlikely to cause it. I do hope your approach might have a positive outcome and that enough people will vote for a party that will cause a change.

It is merely the case that i don't believe that there are enough people willing to vote for the new, for the untested.

anyway back to the topic in hand.

I don't believe the NHS we have will survive, there are too many vested interests in ensuring it fails. Look at the railways under fund it for years then declare the only solution is privatisation. Then once privatised give the money that should have gone to it before privatisation, only now it is creamed off as profit rather than going into better services. Look at the political landscape, and tell me how you can protest and actually get a response.

I would claim Dyslexia, my teachers labelled me lazy.

Ah, so you're blaming the state education system for your misdiagnosis are you ?

That's nice.......why didn't you have private education, if the teachers provided by the state were so crap, eh ?

😐

ernie i wasn't haranguing you about who you vote for, and i am not particularly interested

So now after all that, you're telling me that you weren't even interested !

I don't know why I bother sometimes, I really don't.

Thanks for that TJ, I won't roll my eyes now every time i see it.

Can't believe I typed [i]I know It's trivial raelly but, you know[/i]

Must be the Botanist gin thats affecting me! 🙄

😆

TJ - the NHS is the most efficient provider of healthcare in the world?....

....hahahahahahahahahahaha....hang on.....ahahahahahaha.

Right, got that out the way.

I work in the NHS, i also have a contract with a private firm doing similar work....the private firm is more efficient in just about every way.
My initial training course was far more comprehensive with the private firm, the private company employs exactly who it needs to employ...not whatever nonsense position some think tank or pointless government organisation tells it to employ....and the end result for the pt is of a higher standard too, why?....because staff in the private firm dont feel they are working as an insignificant cog in the behemoth that is the NHS, staff are motivated, there is a closer working relationship with senior managers in the private firm precisely because there isnt the proliferation of middle managers that the NHS is encumbered with....clinical staff are very much frontline staff and admin is taken care of by civilian employees....all things considered i enjoy the work i do for the private firm far more than my NHS work, the only thing keeping me in the NHS is the pension at the end of it.

To give you an example of how 'efficient' the NHS is, my trust employs somebody to visit the ambulance stations and report on how energy efficient they are....yes, this person DRIVES around the stations reporting on energy consumption!....we have registered Paramedics taken off road for months at a time to carry out projects and admin while frontline ambulances are left single manned or taken off road entirely because of low staffing levels....we have a 24 hour emergency service but only employ part time mechanics to maintain the fleet, when vehicles break down the pool of resources available to the public drops because there is nobody available to repair said vehicle....but its OK, we have a full time lesbian-bisexual-gay and transgender officer!

Trust me, the NHS is about as far from efficient as can be....although i am not in favour of privatisation as a whole, something does need to change, the NHS is unsustainable in its current guise unless everybody wants to pay more tax....for the same tax as we currently pay we could have a far better NHS if all the crap was cleared out and outdated working practices were changed.

deviant - it really is. The amount of money wasted on shit like that is small compared to the money saved by being co operative in nature.

You look at its cost for coverage compared to other systems and it comes out very well. Management costs are actually low in comparison to other countries. we pay a smaller % of our GDP than other countries and we get a coverage close to the best for much less money.