10 spaces? With locks? Brilliant!! Bet they're not Virgin trains then!

However it seems to indicate they are being ordered by the DfT (via some PPP shenanigans) but I don't understand how that works if they are being run by the train companies?

TOCs don't own their stock - they lease it. After BR there were 3 companies took on the stock - Angel Trains, Porterbrook and another I forget, a few others have come along since.

For the Intercity Express Programme (IEP) the DfT have decided they'll pitch in and have a go (despite failing previously), so they went out to tender for the contract to build the trains, which will then be leased to the operating companies by the DfT's selected consortium - who happen to be 'Agility Trains'.

Simplification, but that's the thrust.

Bet they're not Virgin trains then!

They will indeed be operated on the East Coast Main Line, the franchise for which has just been taken on by Virgin, but they won't be Pendolinos as on the WCML.

Apparently they will be designed to use electric overheads the majority of time but will also have diesel generators fitted to use non-electrified lines.

That must be really inefficient.

Sounds like a typically crap solution to a problem which should of been solved decades ago.

Sounds like a typically crap solution to a problem which should of been solved decades ago.

Like electrifying routes north of Edinburgh/Glasgow?

I'm quite excited too - but the East Coast / GNER did a mahoosive upgrade job on their rolling stock to create the new Mallard trains which are actually quite nice places to travel.

I'm just exited that we might finally be getting replacements for Pacers.

the cycle storage is in the lobby areas instead of a glorified luggage car on the HST's

3 - 4 per lobby, they will need locks... unlike on the HST

I'm just exited that we might finally be getting replacements for Pacers

EX LONDON TRANSPORT TRAINS FITED WITH 6 TRANSIT DIESEL ENGINES, WITH nice graphics stuck on the outside.

EX LONDON TRANSPORT TRAINS FITED WITH 6 TRANSIT DIESEL ENGINES, WITH nice graphics stuck on the outside.

If they're waterproof then that'll do me.

That must be really inefficient.

Sounds like a typically crap solution to a problem which should of been solved decades ago.

Why must it be? Why is it a crap solution? And what is the 'correct' solution? They're (meant to be) electrifying the GWML and (eventually) the Midland ML, which are the two big ones still running on diesel traction - hence getting new electric trains. Having hybrids means they can still operate on the sections of line that won't be electrified.

On the East Coast main line it's not worth electrifying all the way to Inverness, so having something that can run on the OHLE where it's present and then switch to diesel is far more efficient than the current solution of running HSTs the entire way from London, just so they can serve the bit north of Edinburgh.

I'm just exited that we might finally be getting replacements for Pacers

They aren't even trains, they are "railbuses"!

built between 1980 and 1987. Intended as a short-term solution to a shortage of rolling stock (with a lifespan of no more than 20 years), as of 2015 many Pacer railbuses are still in use.

Sounds like a typically crap solution to a problem which should of been solved decades ago.

Like electrifying routes north of Edinburgh/Glasgow?

The mainline up to Aberdeen. Why not?

Much prefer HST's, plenty of room and a fairly nice place to be. Will be sad to see them go as they are much better than the WCML stock.

Why must it be? Why is it a crap solution?

Because you are lugging around very heavy generators all of the time.

The rest of Europe started electrifying railways decades ago, a lot of it before WW2.

After decades of under investment we are left in a position where we are still having to put a compromise solution in place which is funded by that PPP nonsense.

Much prefer HST's, plenty of room and a fairly nice place to be. Will be sad to see them go as they are much better than the WCML stock.

But a HST is just two locos one each end with seating coaches in between, suspension ,noise limiting interiors and track along with internal space all have an efect on the ambience of the journey, the new trains will be the same loco hauled, as oposed to pendolinos, which have a large engine under each coach body.

The mainline up to Aberdeen. Why not?

Playing fast and loose with the word "main line" there! There's one direct train from London every two hours, some of which go on to Inverness anyway, so you have to do the whole lot to really make a difference. Do you want to electrify absolutely everything north of Glasgow/Edinburgh? Do you think that's really a more cost effective solution!?

Switzerland is virtually all electrified railways, and has been for many many decades, but they have a lot of hydro electric power, which makes it more cost effective on a lot of the marginal routes. Few other countries are - in France virtually all the regional stuff is diesel, likewise Germany, Spain etc.

the new trains will be the same loco hauled, as oposed to pendolinos, which have a large engine under each coach body.

No they're not, they've got underfloor diesel engines, and the power is distributed along the unit, like a Pendolino, not like an HST. However as they don't tilt they've got wider bodies, and I suspect the windows will be larger, so they'll feel airier. The mk3 coaches used on HSTs are still held in very high regard for passenger ambience.

That must be really inefficient.

Sounds like a typically crap solution to a problem which should of been solved decades ago.

I think all diesel locos are series hybrids aren't they? Too difficult to make a gearbox to transit enough torque from a diesel motor directly to the wheels, I think.

I think all diesel locos are series hybrids aren't they? Too difficult to make a gearbox to transit enough torque from a diesel motor directly to the wheels, I think.

I think he was complaining about the presence of the diesel generator at all, not the fact that they need hybrid tech to propel the loco.

I think all diesel locos are series hybrids aren't they?

The modern ones are all diesel electric. Not really "hybrids".

Because you are lugging around very heavy generators all of the time.

The weight of a couple of generators will be pretty insignificant compared to the rest of the train.

You can't electrify the lines north of Edinburgh because then my model railway will be incorrect.

The modern ones are all diesel electric. Not really "hybrids"

A diesel engine powering an electric motor? That's a series hybrid, by definition.

Because you are lugging around very heavy generators all of the time.

Only half of them will have generators, rest are fully electric, which is a step forward compared to current 125's they are replacing. You cant completely ditch diesel, as engineering works might have trains running on small branch lines which are not electrified anyway.

That's a series hybrid, by definition.

No it's not. It's a diesel electric. It's has been around for decades in ships and trains.

According to wiki a hybrid involves some kind of storage.

[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_power ]Hybrid Power[/url]

But a HST is just two locos one each end with seating coaches in between, suspension ,noise limiting interiors and track along with internal space all have an efect on the ambience of the journey, the new trains will be the same loco hauled, as oposed to pendolinos, which have a large engine under each coach body

Suspension, noise limiting and all that other nonsense STILL doesn't change the fact that they might as well call Pendolinos and Voyagers crated veal simulators (and let's not get started on where the hell you're supposed to fit luggage associated with long distance travel).

Bums on seats will be order of the day, cram em in and shut the door. Prove me wrong.

Too difficult to make a gearbox to transit enough torque from a diesel motor directly to the wheels, I think

Smaller locos can be done direct drive (I would guess that's only shunters though). Some later steam locos were geared. So presumably gearboxes are possible, but perhaps its simply cheaper to go big diesel->gen->motors.

IIRC there is some traction advantage to having wheels driven by individual motors.

As vigin/stagecoach have agred to pay a large sum back to the governmnet for the east coast franchise, theyre either going to cram more fare paying passengers into each train, or increase fares quite a lot,the trains will be fixed formation so you cant add on more coaches like in the old days of BR, and theyre are no more paths available to run more trains it appears, so expect more crowded trains higher prices and you may not even get a seat.

Pity we couldn't engineer the new trains in the UK but had to get them from Hitachi in Japan....... ;-(

[img] [/img]

They are being buiilt in the north east,the ones pictured are just trial versions for hte engineers to work out how to make them, with new trains at Derby for down south.

Sadly uk had a huge train building empire exporting all over the world, the sale of BR and BREL soon stopped that though, blame thatcher, she hated trains.A huge number of train works shut down with a huge loss of skill base

so expect more crowded trains higher prices and you may not even get a seat.

Int privatisation [b]BRILLIAAAAAANT!!!!!!!![/b]

[img] [/img]

project
They are being [s]built[/s] [b]assembled[/b] in the north east,the ones pictured are just trial versions for hte engineers to work out how to make them, with new trains at Derby for down south

subtle difference.........

As vigin/stagecoach have agred to pay a large sum back to the governmnet for the east coast franchise, theyre either going to cram more fare paying passengers into each train, or increase fares quite a lot,the trains will be fixed formation so you cant add on more coaches like in the old days of BR, and theyre are no more paths available to run more trains it appears, so expect more crowded trains higher prices and you may not even get a seat.

Given they are introducing (apparently) more services and train sizes are fixed, not sure how it will suddenly be more crowded, given they have always been willing to sell you a ticket without a seat reservation. More expensive? probably, but whats new.

Incidentally thats the argument for HS2 (more track space, not just speed), but apparently many think its not needed?

maxtorque - Member

Pity we couldn't engineer the new trains in the UK but had to get them from Hitachi in Japan....... ;-(

I think Bombardier applied for the contract, but it was eventually given to Hitachi. Seem to remember there being lots of articles in Professional Engineer magazine several years ago about it.

Quite a good article about the trains on the Beeb website:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-31831603

3 companies bidded to build.make them one pulled out , and Hitachi won.

Why they just cant re build a new mark 3 or 4 coach and bung a loco on each end, instead of starting from scratch again dfeats logic.

Good deal on information on Wiki too:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercity_Express_Programme

project - Member

3 companies bidded to build.make them one pulled out , and Hitachi won.

Yeah. From Wiki (my bold):

On 16 November 2007, the Department for Transport issued its IEP Invitation to Tender to three shortlisted entities: [b]Alstom-Barclays Rail Group[/b]; [b]Express Rail Alliance (Bombardier, Siemens, Angel Trains and Babcock & Brown)[/b];[22] and [b]Hitachi Europe[/b].[21][23] [b]After Alstom withdrew from the bidding in February 2008,[24] Barclays Private Equity re-entered the project on 26 June 2008, four days before the end of the bidding process, as a partner of Hitachi and John Laing, in Agility Trains Ltd[/b].[25]

[b]On 12 February 2009, the Government announced that Agility Trains was the preferred bidder for the contract[/b], with the Siemens-Bombardier consortia as reserve bidders – the value of the contract was then estimated at £7.5bn, including replacements for both Intercity 125 and 225 trains.[26] [b]The decision was criticised for not awarding the contract to the Bombardier/Siemens offer which was expected to have resulted in work for Bombardier's Derby factory. The DfT was also accused of 'spin' in describing the Agility trains consortium as a 'British led consortium'.[27][28][note 3] and Hitachi's manufacturing plans attracted concern for reasons such as balance of payments issues, the Japanese domestic railway market being largely closed to foreign entrants, and the extent to which jobs would be safeguarded or created in the UK.[/b][30]

Who builds those locos? You need to tender for it. Doesn't really solve anything.

We don't really have a surplus of 6,450hp locos (which is what current TGV power cars have) just sat about doing nothing.

As someone who spends far too much time on HST 125s from York to Kings Cross, it'll be nice when we get some trains with damping in the suspension - vomit inducingly bad ride.

The 225 Mallards are, on the other hand, fairly nice.

Back in 1960 the deltics had 3300hp one at the front one at the back similar to a hst would work now,and that was for diesel just need a newer design etc, also the class 67, 68, and 69.

As someone who spends far too much time on HST 125s from York to Kings Cross, it'll be nice when we get some trains with damping in the suspension - vomit inducingly bad ride.

The 225 Mallards are, on the other hand, fairly nice

hst 124 mak 3 coach, 225 mark 4 coach, different suspension.

Back in 1960 the deltics had 3300hp one at the front one at the back similar to a hst would work now,and that was for diesel just need a newer design etc, also the class 67, 68, and 69.

And where are these Deltics we just can just chuck on a load of spare mk3 coaches? Bear in mind they'll have to be loco-hauled mk3s, which are different to HST ones. Are the Deltics designed to run in multiple? Why would you bother? I really am struggling with how that would bring any advantage whatsoever. Even if you did have the spare stock.

To be fair, Wrexham & Shropshire have been top and tailing with 67s on occasion on one set, but they're not high speed locos, it's not a remotely viable solution.

At the point at which you have to build new locos and new coaches why on earth wouldn't you just build MUs? Like they're doing...

And where are these Deltics we just can just chuck on a load of spare mk3 coaches? Bear in mind they'll have to be loco-hauled mk3s, which are different to HST ones. Are the Deltics designed to run in multiple? Why would you bother? I really am struggling with how that would bring any advantage whatsoever. Even if you did have the spare stock.

To be fair, Wrexham & Shropshire have been top and tailing with 67s on occasion on one set, but they're not high speed locos, it's not a remotely viable solution.

Hate to tell you , Wrexham and Shropshire was culled a few years ago, jan 2011 and no longe rexists as a company
class 67 where and stil are capapble of 125 mph speeds witrh suitable stock eg mk 3 coaches.

project - Member

hst 124 mak 3 coach, 225 mark 4 coach, different suspension.

I didn't know about the mk3/mk4 but the difference in suspension is very noticeable just south of Doncaster where I have nearly lost my lunch travelling in HSTs a few times.

Hybrids sound like a great solution!
No more using promises to electrify lines in the future to prevent old rolling stock being replaced ASAP.

Hate to tell you , Wrexham and Shropshire was culled a few years ago, jan 2011 and no longe rexists as a company
class 67 where and stil are capapble of 125 mph speeds witrh suitable stock eg mk 3 coaches.

Indeed, wrong tense, they were top and tailing a set, apologies.

you create a new rake of passenger locos, and dedicated stock and run them anywhere just like br did, not like the new longer 800 series which will be limited to certain routes due to lenghth of coaches.

They didn't really. Stuff was still allocated to certain routes. Even mk3 coaches were allocated to the WCML, or the ECML, or the GWML, and they didn't run at all on the South Eastern/South Central, nor the SWML except as 442 EMUs. Likewise locos were still allocated to certain routes. Trains didn't simply roam the country as you're implying.

Do you build your hypothetical new locos as diesels, or electrics? If the former then what do you do with all the OHLE? If the latter what do you run on the non-electrified bits. If you build them as diesel electrics then how is that really any different to what they're currently doing?

If you're allocating stock to a route that is gauge cleared for bigger stock, why limit it just in case you fancy redistributing it to another completely different part of the country?

It really does make no sense.

[img] [/img]

Looks good to me...

Haha!

I thought someone was gonna dig something like this one out from the engineering works last year:

[img] [/img]

56s on hybrid rakes of mk2s and 3s would be far more interesting though!

I don't really see a problem with the existing set up of fixed car sets for intercity travel. There are back ups anyway. More flexibility for commuter trains would be the ideal- ironically, the best commuter train journey I had recently was an Edinburgh Fringe extra train- old stock hauled by a 47 with a luggage car for bikes. Lots of bikes! It worked great, much more spacious than being crammed into a Turbostar. But empty seats don't make money.

Because the railways should be about making money. Ahem.

It's virtually all 4-car EMUs down here, so quite a bit of versatility on commuter sets. Plenty of services that leave London as a 12-car, then split mid way. Works well enough.

I see no real issue with fixed rakes either, particularly on longer distances. The reality is that even with loco hauled stock you can't just 'chuck another couple of coaches on the back' if it's a busy service after all.

I travel on Chiltern at lot and they run class 67's at one end, 7 mark 3 carriages and a DVT at the other end. They're fast, roomy, comfortable and make a nice noise when they set off. The 67's are being replaced with some brand spanking new [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_68 ]68's[/url].

I actually think Chiltern do a lot right, their punctuality is good, the trains themselves are good and they even dealt with the landslip between Banbury and Leamington very well. The show of sh... that is Cross Country are a different altogether, seem unable to run a train on time and even when they do there is no space in the Voyagers which seem to be a reverse tardis (huge on the outside, tiny inside).