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With a credible leadership taking back the centreground they could well win.
I think this is it, but I do think what 'the centre ground' is not so clear as it was 10/20 years ago. The idea of working class people being automatically left wing and affluent city types tending to be right wing has gone out the window (if it was ever really that true I don't know).
Labour now needs to spend some serious time looking at the population and really deeply understanding the issues they face and how they can get them to understand that Labour will help them. This is across the spectrum, not just the ex-Labour working class leavers.
Simply keeping on banging the nationalism drum without people understanding how it can improve there lives won't be enough, equally neither will simply settling into a traditional 'Blair voting Tory' style policies. There are some huge chasms to be bridged and it's not going to be easy.
So which of the seven stages of grief are the Labour hierarchy currently at?
I reckon we're getting past denial now and well into the anger.
@kiksy I saw many people change, red to blue and one thing that stood out for me was opposition to the activism and divisive politics, a lot of my former colleagues who have been red their entire lives hated the activism of Momentum and the questionable loyalties of JC. No doubt a lot of the stuff about him was made up, but even the stuff he's on record with isn't a good look for a potential PM.
Appreciate BoJo is questionable, racist some might say, but clearly the people are okay with that and not someone who may be an anti-semite and sympathetic towards over paramilitary organizations. I certainly do not expect perfect, but they can and must do better. Also anything that gets Owen Jones away from my TV screen the better, and that Sarkar idiot can go leap too.
Appreciate BoJo is questionable, racist some might say, but clearly the people are okay with that
not someone who may be an anti-semite
what??!?!?!?!?
I meant in regard to all the bluster in the press. Old Corbyn was hammered by the media at every turn, whereas Boris seemed to have got off very lightly. But both their public indiscretions are out there for all to see.
The public clearly preferred one over the other. So maybe next go around, find someone a little less of a target.
Whoever it is will get mauled and held to one-sided standards, verging on the immaculate conception by the predominately right-wing print media regardless.
if left wing people bought left wing newspapers there would be more choice
Even the most ardent right wing proprietor would keep a left wing paper going if it made him money and there would be other trying to take the market share
The public clearly preferred one over the other. So maybe next go around, find someone a little less of a target
#BackBurgon
People keep talking about 5 years of Tory rule until the next election but aren’t they going to repeal the FTPA so they aren’t forced to hold an election after a specific period, or have I misunderstood that?
but aren’t they going to repeal the FTPA so they aren’t forced to hold an election after a specific period
Yes, but unless there is some advantage to the Tories to have an early election, they won't bother. With that size of majority, I can't see things being bad enough in Parliamentary terms that it would happen.
Rebecca Long-Bailey is obviously Corbyn and MacDonalds choice and why they havent walked already. She is the MiniCorb in waiting, and they want to secure her in post.
As much as I like her I do worry that its just a repeat of the left wing of the party making the same mistakes. RLB quoted clause 4 at the labour party conference and said "It may not be on the back of our membership card any more but its in here" (pointing to heart). All good for the faithful but not really appealing to their lost voters?. And they will blame Brexit, The Press and scapegoat what moderates are left, because as Corbyn says they lost the election but "won the argument" so its ok, and not admit it was because as nice as they are they were to stuck on outdated class issues and didnt have the charisma to succeed.
Its all a bit 1983 really isnt it? When Michael Foot lost and they then made the same mistake of electing another left winger, Kinnock and it was only when he lost they moved back to the centre to appeal to a wider audience and elected John Smith.
I am not seeing any change of direction.
As much as I like her I do worry that its just a repeat of the left wing of the party making the same mistakes.
Does she have less baggage though? Let's face it, it wasn't policy that lost Labour the election.
Nope, it was Brexit and the leader. Brexit is no longer an issue (or won't be the same vote winner in 5 years time that is for sure) so 100% about popularity of leader.
I do expect the same mistakes to be made again though as this point will be completely missed.
Rebecca Long-Bailey would be the Labour Party's William Hague. Offering a fresh face but very little else to the electorate.
Rebecca Long-Bailey is obviously Corbyn and MacDonalds choice and why they havent walked already. She is the MiniCorb in waiting, and they want to secure her in post.
As much as I like her I do worry that its just a repeat of the left wing of the party making the same mistakes.
John Crace - the Guardian political sketch writer - was talking about Long Bailey on one of the regular Guardian podcasts and basically said that listening to her pretty much put him to sleep. I thought that was a bit brutal, so I went and checked a few videos of her on YouTube and I have to admit that he had a point.
Does she have less baggage though? Let’s face it, it wasn’t policy that lost Labour the election.
You think?
Nope, it was Brexit and the leader.
43% leader
17% brexit
12% economic policy
Personally I think the manifesto alone was enough to stop them winning. If Corbyn and Brexit had not been an issue scrutiny would have passed to the ludicrous manifesto which nobody believed. ...and if they did believe it, it was blown out of the water by the promise of another 58bn out of nowhere.
Does she have less baggage though?
If she is quoting clause4 then no. Still stuck in the old mould. Labour need to accept that their traditional approach is broken. Its not about traditional class divisions any more its about understanding frustrations and being able to offer solutions to appeal. Whether it be "Get Brexit done" or Scottish Nationalism. More than anything its about actually being in government to be able to do something.
It feels a little like this GE was the point to which Momentum and their dangerous identity politics game of division came utterly crashing down around their heads, problem is they’re so arrogant and deluded they can’t reflect on that and have taken to continuing to insult the voting populace, seems they like to partake in political self-harming.
Couldn't agree more. Momentum are a massive blocker outside of their own echo chamber.
If labour want to recapture lost votes and regions, they need to get shot.
andyrm agreed. Unfortunately Momentum don't see it this way. They think they have vibrantly captured peoples hearts.... 1983 all over.
RLB would be the wrong choice. Too attached to McDonnell, and without wanting to be sexist, she looks a bit odd and comes across a bit like Theresa May. I'll say it again, Rayner is the perfect candidate. An amazingly inspiring backstory, has a natural connection with northerners and the working classes, is passionate and combative, and she has just enough distance from Corbyn and McDonnell (widely regarded as 'soft left'), but not too much. The only thing missing is some intellectual rigour and a bit of diplomacy, but given her opponent I'm not sure that's necessary.
Nandy's good too, but where Rayner is too combative, she's the opposite. Also stained after her association with the anti-Corbyn coup so the membership will view her with suspicion. It's a recipe for more infighting. Rayner would be a good unity candidate as I hear very little negativity from the right about her (rayban doesn't count).
Personally, I’d exclude anyone from becoming Labour Leader for the following crimes:
Using the term “Working Class” it’s condensing, maybe if you used to work down t’ pit like Dennis Skinner, but if you’re a Public Educated London based career politician, no. From a purely electable point of view it’s completely toxic. We’ve gone like the Yanks, most people who have a job and their choice of consumer goods consider themselves Middle Class. We’re a Virtual Labour heartland but we’ve had more than a few threads on ‘class’ on STW, spoiler alert – most people on STW consider themselves Middle Class, apart from those who think the class system if pointless these days, or similarly only consider themselves Working Class because the ‘real’ class system is Working or Elite, there is no in between.
If you search “working class” on STW you’ll often find the work “rough” before it, or even used to describe poor, thick as mince Racists.
Using the term “Comrade” unironically. Comrade, really? Most voters grew up watching Film and TV when the Baddies were all Russian Communists who called each other Comrade. It puts people in mind of totalitarian communist states, exactly the sort of imagery the Tories use to discredit Labour.
Similarly “Labour Movement” most people want a decent Government who isn’t going to screw them over to make their friends rich, isn’t going to exploit us, is going to look after those who need it and once you’ve cracked all that, leave us alone. We don’t want a bunch of 6th Form Trotskyists controlling our lives.
Sad news. Probably confirms they're looking towards the one after next with Rayner at the helm.
https://twitter.com/GuardianHeather/status/1206599224214872065?s=20
The left wing labourites need to take a reality check, the UK is now too affluent for socialism. Very very few people want to share their stuff, nor pay a little more so others less fortunate may receive the welfare assistance and housing that they need to enable a healthy sense of self esteem and self worth.
It’s all rather ‘me, me, me’.
If labour are going to pursue a left wing socialist ideology, then they really have no connection with the contemporary society. In many ways, the Lib-dems should be the primary opposition party as they really do try to occupy the middle fence sitting ground, but somewhere along the line, they haven’t been able to connect with the electorate.
Sad news. Probably confirms they’re looking towards the one after next with Rayner at the helm
Lol - so with Rayner at the helm in 2025, we can finally look forward to a Labour government in 2030.
Maybe even 2035 - because no doubt they will keep Rayner for two terms like they did with comrade Corbyn.
Corbyn had less than 5 years don’t forget (he should have gone in 2017 in my opinion, but you can’t really claim he has had “2 terms”).
Anyway thought about it for long enough… I think…
Jess Phillips for PM.
Yvette Cooper for deputy leader.
One to raise the emotions of voters, the other for behind the scenes skill and experience. A team is needed to turn this around, not just one person.
Keep up the good work, P-Jay, you're getting closer to the heart of the problem with each post. put it all together and send it to Labour HQ.
Comrade is one I too find really irritating. In the country the term was originally hijacked by Marx and co., you hardly ever hear it unless someone is taking the piss or talking about history (google genosse, genossen). Yet time warp Labour keep it alive in Britain. Perhpas because they were never occupied by their comrades and been faced with living under sef-serving comrades.
The Long-Bailey rumours are just to get people to join Labour to vote against her, yes?
43% leader
17% brexit
12% economic policy
Not a chance. Those percentage bear no resembalance to what happened in the seats.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-results-2019-maps-breakdown-constituency/
(See blue diamond chart.)
"If you cannot see that the traditional Labour heartland in the old industrial and mining towns in the north deserted Labour for the Tories then you are blind.
And if you think that the almost 100 per cent correlation between the strength of the Leave vote and the change in seats in the heartlands is not meaningful then you lack analytical capacity (being polite).
To aggregate the vote for Labour, SNP, Liberal Democrats etc into a ‘Remain’ vote and then claim that the British people actually want to Remain rather than to Leave is just being part of the problem that caused Labour’s electoral demise.
Last Thursday, Britain held the ‘second’ referendum that all those smart-alec, urban, educated, cosmos were demanding, and which so perverted the Labour Party’s message to the people."
the traditional Labour heartland in the old industrial and mining towns in the north deserted Labour for the Tories
Indeed.
“I’m not voting for that man”
If you’ve been any where outside London and not heard this sentiment, repeatedly, it’s probably because people see your #JC4PM badge, and wisely avoid saying what they truly feel.
Last Thursday, Britain held the ‘second’ referendum that all those smart-alec, urban, educated, cosmos were demanding, and which so perverted the Labour Party’s message to the people.
No, it had an election instead. An election Labour could never win.
Using the term “Comrade” unironically. Comrade, really? Most voters grew up watching Film and TV when the Baddies were all Russian Communists who called each other Comrade. It puts people in mind of totalitarian communist states, exactly the sort of imagery the Tories use to discredit Labour.
Spot on. However, as well as the totalitarian states, it also puts people in mind of the ultimate cosplay commie.
This means it's far too easy to ridicule, even when there's decent substance being delivered. "Solidarity comrades", with a fist held high just makes you look, and sound like Citizen Smith.
Hilary Armstrong ought to know:
every day through the campaign, the current leadership offered more and more free stuff. It just didn’t add up.
The fact that people didn’t vote for loads more free stuff shows that voters understand the importance of their own activity in improving their lives. Being given everything is just unreal – they knew it would have to be paid for.
To aggregate the vote for Labour, SNP, Liberal Democrats etc into a ‘Remain’ vote and then claim that the British people actually want to Remain rather than to Leave is just being part of the problem that caused Labour’s electoral demise.
Even for the Johnson mouthpiece which is the Telegraph, that assertion is poor English and thought avoidance. More people voted for parties that wanted rem/ref than did for parties wanting Brexit. The fact we're nevertheless about to get Brexit tells you about our broken electoral system, not about any upsurge in brexitiness.
(Sure broken as it is, we still have to live with it. And it's about to be rigged rightwards as per Tory manifesto.)
If Labour really want to capture people's hearts and minds again then, based on what I saw and heard during the election campaign, Rebecca LB is the wrong answer. The staggering thing about all this is that the Labour hierarchy have not seen and understood this. Theresa May ran quite possibly the worst election campaign in living memory and still beat Jeremy Corbyn. The Conservative government for the past few years has been pretty much all at sea, it surely has been the biggest open goal in history and still they failed to win. For this campaign none of the parties managed to run a half way decent campaign, BoJo seemed to be doing his best to appear the least statesman like candidate of the lot and at the end of it still romped home. For the Labour leadership team to start questioning the media hate campaign against JC amongst other excuses just shows their delusion up for what it is. The trouble is that, for many people, it wasn't just JC. People like John McDonnell, Barry Gardiner and Dianne Abbott were equally desperate characters in the shit show. And yes, as others have said, the perception of the policies was just fantasy politics from the 70's and no real credibility. One of the most depressing elections I can remember
Agree every word, but I'd slightly quibble with:
The staggering thing about all this is that the Labour hierarchy have not seen and understood this.
IMHO Momentum fully understand their ideas won't win elections - they just don't care about the winning part.
Jon Lansman:
Democracy gives power to people, “Winning” is the small bit that matters to political elites who want to keep power themselves
PS: Where's Binners?
Rebecca LB is the wrong answer.
I agree. She has zero emotional connection to normal people and comes across as another academic. Now that Rayner has ruled herself out (either at the behest of McDonnell, or because she think she has a better chance next time), the only other candidates who can do what she could are Nandy and Phillips. One of them is going to have to make way for the other to have a chance of beating RLB. Given the sad reality that anyone who isn't a naked self-promoter doesn't have a chance of being PM, and I hate to say this because I've never liked her, Phillips is probably the best bet, on the condition that Rayner or RLB is deputy. She could probably win too, all she has to do is extend a hand to the left and promise to retain the best of the Corbyn/McDonnell policies (broadband, green new deal, national education service, rail privatisation).
She'd also have a better chance if Binners put his money where his mouth is and joined up to vote for her instead of whining on the internet.
IMHO Momentum fully understand their ideas won’t win elections
FFS momentum aren't interested in winning elections because they're not a political party. They're no more than a policy pressure group/think tank like all the rest of them.
Bring back Binners!
Or at least stop slagging him off while he has no way of responding.
(broadband, green new deal, national education service, rail privatisation)
Phillips has already praised all of those post election, except the broadband part. While I think it is exactly what is needed, public provision of our data network that is, I fully expect any leader to drop it like a stone… the Nationalistion part of Labour’s policy book will be paired back by anyone wanting to show they’re not cloth eared… sadly… its scale was a turn off for so many voters.
IMHO Momentum fully understand their ideas won’t win elections – they just don’t care about the winning part
https://twitter.com/JeremyDuns/status/1206199245801476097?s=19
Kier Starmer is the only one that voters will be able to envisage as PM. All the others in the top team. No other solution will win back enough voters. I know he doesn’t wear a dress or speak northern, and he may have a bit of Brexit baggage but he is the only one who will win the respect of the press and the government front bench.
Kier Starmer is the only one that voters will be able to envisage as PM. All the others in the top team. No other solution will win back enough voters. I know he doesn’t wear a dress or speak northern, and he may have a bit of Brexit baggage but he is the only one who will win the respect of the press and the government front bench.
I agree. I'd vote for Starmer in a heartbeat. He's a serious public servant.
You don't need to be Northern to appeal to Northerners, just competent. Leadership transcends class and accents. (Churchill, Thatcher, Blair or pick your own examples)
Academic though, because RLB is the annointed one.
Competent isn’t enough. He’s one of few in the shadow cabinet that is 100% ready for high office… but not as PM. I’ve not changed my opinion of him, but this election has moved my opinion of what is needed to lead a party to a win and become PM.
Look at Johnson. Now talk about competence. Now talk about trust. Something more is needed.
I think 'power' is in fact a dirty word for Jeremy Corbyn. The powerful, in his mind, are by their very nature corrupt. His life's mission is to protest against those who have power. A Labour goverrnment led by him or those who think like him is impossible for this reason.
Corbyn's spent his life avoiding responsibility and sniping from the sidelines. There's no doubt that's his preffered role. He certainly wasn't expecting to win the leadership and wasn't that pleased when he did.
*But* as leader he has had a at least two wins. He's pretty much delivered a Brexit victory in the Ref because with such a narrow margin a serious remain Labour leader would certainly have won over the handful of votes required and Corbyn stopped that. Also united Ireland. That was unthinkable a few months ago, now it's looking plausible. So on two policy areas that he's been campaigning on for years Corbyn has had a decisive impact.
Competent isn’t enough. He’s one of few in the shadow cabinet that is 100% ready for high office… but not as PM. I’ve not changed my opinion of him, but this election has moved my opinion of what is needed to lead a party to a win and become PM.
Look at Johnson. Now talk about competence. Now talk about trust. Something more is needed.
I'd agree, what they really want is a Blair - someone with electoral stardust who is also a competent administrator. I'm not sure they have a candidate of that caliber.
But Boris's approval ratings are dire and his campaigning ability has turned out to be dire. So a capable genuine leader and a sane platform of conservative (small c) should give him a good chance IMHO. They have nobody better, that I'm aware of.
Academic because we're going to get RLB and she doesn't meet *any* of the criteria.
As I see it, the whole concept of a left wing party has become part of the problem. We are stuck in a two party polictical system and left and right are co-dependant. Labours very existance seems to further enable the Conservatives.
Working out how Labour can become re-electable over the next decade isn't the answer. It perpetuates the cyclical nature or worse, dooms us to many more terms of Tory rule. This country simply needs a much more representative parliament. We need the parties, candidates and electoral system to enable it.
Jenny Chapman who has just lost her seat has some good (imho) things to say this morning.
Selective quotes include:
Chapman an ally of Keir Starmer has ridiculed the idea that the next Labour leader must “have ovaries or a Northern accent”,
Ms Chapman added: “I didn’t lose my seat because Jeremy Corbyn is a man from north London.
“People in Darlington have just elected an MP whose party is led by an old Etonian from Islington, who speaks Latin! This Westminster media obsession with personalities misses the point entirely.”
So looks like Starmer could be standing.
Any candidate for the PM and Deputy PM roles proposed and supported by Corbyn, McDonnell, McCluskey, or Lansman or their acolytes should be automatically excluded from the contest. They have managed to create the biggest electoral disaster in Labour's history and more of the same with a different face will have the same or a worse outcome.
The political narrative in the country seems to have moved right to a degree and Labour need to reflect that with a more 'centrist' proposition. My choice would be Jess Phillips or Lisa Nandy, with a strong shadow cabinet of people such as Keir Starmer, Angela Rayner, Yvette Cooper and David Lammy.
Labour also need to engage more effectively with the millions of small businesses, self-employed etc. which have been the growth area of employment rather than listen to the antiquated views of McCluskey who still hasn't moved on from the union heyday of the 1970s.
Labour will continue to fail if they pick another economic left winger. We've seen Russia and China, we're not them, it's not a post-war rebuild-the-country era, it's not the 1970s. Proles owning the means of production? Anyone with any kind of private pension already does
that. We don't want a glorious revolution. The country is generally rich enough that it doesn't need the constant promises of free stuff. Nationalisation of rail / water / electric / whatever may or may not win people over, mainly I think that is down to how they view the privatisation is working out, some countries have made it work, we mostly haven't. Economic left wing policies aren't what will win the election. Stealing 10% of industry didn't sound good. Super right wing free meerkat at all costs type policies don't quite seem to fit. So they should go mostly centrist, economically.
As for the other angles, I just don't know.
Nationalist or Globalist? I'd like to see a more outward looking leader in charge, the world is big and we need to fit into it and work with it. The elephant there is Brexit which is horrendously nationalist in all the wrong ways and the electorate voted for that. So I just don't know.
Socially, I'd like to see fairly liberal policies. The electorate in its great unwashed glory appears to be favouring a rather conservative outlook (argh, Brexit). So again, I don't know.
Blair was generally globalist and liberal. Maybe Labour probably need someone a bit like him (minus the megalomania and religious excuses for warmongering).
How's Starmer looking?
No beard - check.
Wears a suit - check.
Square jawed - check.
Sounds credible - check.
need to engage more effectively with the millions of small businesses, self-employed
This, times a lot.