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Union emailed today to say I can have a vote if I sign up to the "aims and values" of the Labour party and don't belong to any dodgy organisations.
Thought, well I'm a floating voter, membership of the RSPB doesn't exclude me so I had a look on the website. Can I find the aims? Can I find the values? Nope.
Admittedly they may be buried a bit by the trendy web developer but come on, they should be easy to find. (Waits for STW to post links)
Anyway might do it might not, if I do it's to get someone who I'll vote for a GE and will be able to rebuild a decent opposition for the next four years. Parliamentary democracy doesn't work if the incumbent doesn't think they are going to get chucked out if they are Muppets.
For all those advocating Starmer he's likely to be taken down by the CSE scandal that national press fleetingly run on. The Manchester inquiry will part implicate the CPS and the paperwork chain is likely to go to the top. Looking at some of the local Facebook groups for Oldham is depressing and likely to be repeated in other areas with Labour imploding in the North
As a floating voter for me to vote labour I would be looking at a party left of center with ethical social policies and a leader who can hold government to account.
I do not want a hard left and I think as seen at the he last GE neither does the country. RLB appears just a continuation of Corbin and a weak yes to the McCluskey and momentum type at that. I can't see her causing Borris and issues at PMQ
Sorry but I don't want a hard left socialist government as I can't see that is any better than what we are currently heading to with an increasingly right-wing intolerant government, both are just the same as each other just opposite sides of the coin.
Given the current situation labour need a strong leader more than ever (as does the country) and to me as a floating voter it has to be Starmer.
get into government and start improving things, ASAP
I can't remember who said it, but I read on twitter the other day that the labour party has to do more than merely being nice to poor people. This is the crux of the whole getting into government issue. The world is at a dangerous tipping point, and if we don't take radical action to address climate change and inequality at their source we'll reach a point of no return, and that's going to take a lot more than hollow centre left virtue signalling. It's not disaster socialism, it's the very opposite as these policies are needed to avoid the disaster.
both are just the same as each other just opposite sides of the coin.
FFS, no they are not. This is a completely meaningless and vacuous statement. Firstly, labour policy as it currently stands is not 'hard left'. I don't think you even understand what hard left is, because it certainly doesn't look like the free market capitalism which labour weren't going to change. Tackling climate change and addressing inequality is not 'hard left', it's just basic common sense. The alternative is ecological and economic collapse, probably ending in chaos and conflict.
Very well put dazh, unfortunately people can’t see past their (insert social media drip-fed propaganda of choice here) bollox.
Little Labour can do about the climate emergency while sitting in opposition, waiting for the public to move far enough left to elect it.
Thats all very laudable Daz but unfortunately to do anything about any of that you have to get elected first. And the rhetoric and track record of people like Corbyn, McDonnell and Len McClusky scarres the horses.
When people are asked on an internet survey if they're concerned about the environment they answer that of course they are
When then asked if they've altered their own behavior in the face of the environmental crisis, they answer yes. But what they mean by that is that they now use cardboard drinking straws instead of plastic ones (because of that nice Mr Attenborough pointing out they kill turtles on that BBC on a Sunday night) and they make sure that those empty bottles of Australian Shiraz and Argentine Malbec go in the recycling
When the queation is changed to 'would you be prepared to forsake the sumptuously uphoulstered leather seats of your Audi and get on a bus instead?' then the answer is 'naaaah... **** that!'. They may not vocalise that, but thats the answer.
So you have to nudge pepole a step at a time. You have to get into power first, then start to alter behavior with policy initiatives, both carrot and stick. Otherwise people will vote with their feet. And their feet are saying 'heated wing mirrors and fresh strawberries in December
Like I said: deal with the world as it is, rather than as you'd like it to be. Otherwise you're on a hiding to nothing. Which is what most of us have seen as an apt description of the whole Corbynite 'project' for the last 4 years. There simply aren't the numbers of voters there to put it into effect. So a new aproach is needed. otherwise nothing will change, and righteous indignace might be a cosy comfort balnket for some, but it doesn't get us anywhere.
Labour hustings on you tube.
Worth a watch.
Thornberry clearly the best speaker. She's clearly got the biggest balls. Not sure about her politics.
Jess Phillips clearly out her depth. Thought she might come across better. No conviction.
RLB has got the best arguments but we know we need a bit more than that.
Nandy just blending into nothing.
Starmer pretty average here but consistent.
Best talker versus best ideas?
Well Boris has no idea and is a bumbling primate. And we knowo how that worked out.
Like I said: deal with the world as it is, rather than as you’d like it to be.
That’s exactly what labour, and Sanders in the US are doing. The science tells us radical and unprecedented action is required on climate change. There isn’t time to nudge and encourage people to change, the time for that was 20 years ago. This isn’t left wing utopianism, it’s basic common sense, and if you’re suggesting that policies like the green new deal are too extreme to be in government, then it’s not worth being in government.
Maybe if you shout that at people in Surrey and Sussex load enough and often enough they’ll all vote for Rebecca Long Bailey?
Worth bearing in mind that most people in Bradford and Workington wouldn’t vote for it last time out
Just a thought
Also worth noting that while the Labour Party leadership hopefuls all indulge the pathetic, middle-class, self-indulgent navel-gazing and righteous hectoring to satisfy the momentum ****-wits, the Tory’s,with their massive majority, which they just gift-wrapped for them, just spent 100 million quid of taxpayers money to bail out an airline
Now does that fit in with your climate crisis credentials, comrade? 🙄
Like I said: at some point the left is going to have to engage with the real world
All the ‘hopefuls’ are looking pretty competent at hustings to me. If they all end up in the shadow cabinet, and can work together, just maybe they can shake the party up…
RLB urged all to be ‘salespeople for socialism’
Ticking boxes for the Momentum crowd and gifting Boris ten years
Clueless
Utterly ****ing clueless
They still don’t get it
Unless things change radically, which hardly looks likely, the future of the Labour Party is as a puerile sixth form level placard-waving irrelevance
The Tory’s are praying for RLB and laughing their tits off
Socialism no longer flies with the lumpen proletariat. RLB doesn't get it.
Exactly. You can have policies which people will like and are based on socialist principles but never mention the S word as people don't like it. They don't understand it, but they don't understand very much but at least have the awareness that it needs to be avoided for a party to succeed.
The policies need to be almost hidden away for use when in power with just a few key popular policies shouted about for the next 5 years. The average voter can't handle 50 policies thrown at them but if they have only 3 and those 3 are things they like it would be a better start.
Oh, and have a leader people actually like...
“Policies, not ideologies”
“A better fairer Britain, not a socialist Britain”
“A government for everyone”
”Solving problems, not creating them”
“Building, not destroying”
“Education for all, not preaching on behalf of some”
“Looking after the old, not looking down on them”
“Releasing the potential of the young, not dismissing them”
“Leading the world when it comes to addressing the climate emergency, not disadvantaging ourselves”
Deeply unpopular I know … but try those on focus groups of voters who would never join any kind of “movement”.
Unless things change radically, which hardly looks likely
What are you blathering on about? All polls apart from one are saying Starmer is miles ahead. The reason for that is his support for the policies which you seem to suggest labour should abandon.
And on the climate change issue, it’s true people generally don’t want to know. On this issue more than any other they need honest leadership telling them that major action is long overdue. That’s what the green new deal policy does and everything should revolve around it for the next 5 years.
I’ll put it simply Dazh:
Every time a Labour front bencher says “comrade”, a government that would make serious strides towards addressing the climate emergency becomes less likely.
Let me put it even more simply, people need to grow up, including many on here. Who gives a toss whatever people call themselves? I’ve never used the word comrade in my life, nor have any of my mates who are a lot more active and involved than me. You really think the use of the word comrade is top of the priority list?
And those soundbites up there are exactly the sort of thing that puts people off politicians on account of them being meaningless patronising rubbish. If there's one thing I agree with Phillips on it's that politicians fooling the public with nice words and little action is where the problem is. Silly slogans and obsessing about 100 year old phrases are not going to get labour back into power.
I can guarantee you that Labour will **** this up.
They think "they know best" and don't realise that their job is to represent the public instead of telling them how ****ing stupid they are.
Which is why our Conservative lords and masters will keep slipping us the willy
Daz - what you’re doing is demonstrating the paradox at the heart of the present Labour Party. In order to win the leadership you have to predominantly advocate policies popular with the present momentum-heavy membership (banging on about socialism etc)
Unfortunately this is the very thing that repels the electorate. Thus in winning the leadership by pandering to one small specific group, you make yourself unelectable with the wider voting public
I’m, somewhat depressingly, coming to the realisation that we may never see another labour government. That will be Jeremy Corbyns, and to some extent Ed Millibands legacy.
The transformation of the labour ‘movement’ from a political party into a self-absorbed, self-indulgent, politically impotent protest movement
And nobody knows this more than Boris Johnson and Dominic Cummings.
what you’re doing is demonstrating the paradox at the heart of the present Labour Party.
The paradox is putting huge effort into winning power, and then not wanting to do anything with it, especially at a time like now when we desperately need politicians who have the vision and courage to deal with the pressing problems of the day rather than continuing to hide our heads in the sand.
Socialism no longer flies with the lumpen proletariat. RLB doesn’t get it.
It didn't fly this time for a multitude of reasons.
Ultimately there won't be another option as market economics is collapsing. The only thing that will get out us of this is massive Government money pumped into the right areas.
Don't assume because the electorate didn't vote for it last time it won't be needed.
RLB is on the money. Far from clueless as constantly being repeated. The only person that's clueless is Jess. She ain't going to be leading the party any time soon.
The alternative is free market economics and Brexit at the same time so keep saying Socialism isn't wanted or needed.
Centrism will fix nothing by the way. That's the clueless option.
Centrism will get you in power then you can do what the **** you want.
Remember that one about generals always fighting the last battle, not the next one? The Labour party are charging Panzers on horseback.
Market economics is collapsing
Yet more delusional lefty wishful thinking.
I don’t know if you missed it but a party advocating free-market economics just won a thumping great majority and a party advocating socialism got absolutely trounced
Listened to Jess Phillips on R5 this morning. Unfortunately she was hopelessly under prepared for some soft basic questions that veered away from the usual. She has clearly underestimated the size of the job and the preparation needed to be able field questions across the spectrum of issues. The excuse of "it's not what I am asked about on the doorstep" points out the difference in level needed to step up from backbencher to leader.
Still waiting for the killer questions for Starmer, "what documents did you see in relation to CSE when you were head of the CPS" and "how many CSE cases passed to the CPS by the police did you determine were not to be prosecuted"
Yet more delusional lefty wishful thinking.
It's not wishful thinking. We have a monetary system based on an unsustainable pyramid scheme which relies on money being created out of nothing and infinite amounts of natural resources to fuel perpetual growth. That would be bad enough but the lion's share of this money goes to people and corporations at the top rather than the general population, which has created a massive build up of personal debt. When the bubble bursts it will make 2008 look like childs play.
Just because people voted for a party which refuses to do anything about this doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist. And why would they tories do anything about it? Because their backers and the people they represent do very well out of it. You claim the left wants collapse, but they are the only ones proposing solutions to prevent it, because they know who will lose out when it happens. You've got all this the wrong way round.
Centrism will get you in power then you can do what the **** you want.
You mean like last time? Even if they did try that the reality is that you can't 'do what you want' unless you have the mandate and the time to get results from the policies. Most labour policies will take more than one term, some more than two. If they don't have the voters behind the policies you simply can't implement them.
You do know how democracy works, right?
Do you think you’ll ever see another Labour government?
Given what I’ve heard from the hustings, pandering to Momentum, I don’t
Momentum is busy establishing a one party state
They’ll be able to keep waving their placards and signing online petitions though, so they’re happy enough.
The poor, disadvantaged and disabled, not so much
But as long as everyone in the common room is happy, wallowing in their own righteousness ...
So a Labour leader should pander to the electorate to get elected but shouldn't pander to the Labour membership in order to get elected- is that right binbins?
Did you go to sixth form? I'm wondering why your so obsessed with it.
Is there any evidence out there that suggests labour lost the election because of their socialist policies?
I would say the loss was down to the brexit plan
Labour gambled by trying to drag the election away from brexit and that really has backfired now because everybody can blame the loss on any aspect of labours campaign but it really isn't clear to me what the outcome would have been without brexit.
I’d just rather not live with permanent Tory government
The present Labour Party, after 4 years of Corbynism is a complete and utter ****ing shambles
Totally unelectable
As they’ve just shown
And I don’t see anything getting any better any time soon
I truly believe, watching these idiots, that we will never again see a labour government
That’s Corbyns legacy
But as long as everyone in the common room is happy, wallowing in their own righteousness …
I always enjoy you complaining about others' self-righteousness.
Glad to be of service, comrade
What have the romans ever done for us?
I’d just rather not live with permanent Tory government
It will not be permanent. As usual we will get some incompetent ministers that makes silly decisions based on vanity.
The present Labour Party, after 4 years of Corbynism is a complete and utter ****ing shambles
No surprise there based on the GE result.
Totally unelectable
As they’ve just shown
I agree but due credit should go to their entertainment value otherwise politics would be boring.
And I don’t see anything getting any better any time soon
20 years minimum.
Look at the calibre of all the current candidates or even the younger ones, me think they are stuck in a loop.
I truly believe, watching these idiots, that we will never again see a labour government
Very high probability that as I think there will be new opposition party(s) that may more be in tune with the people.
That’s Corbyns legacy
No, that credit is not his but the way Labour party lost their ways. i.e. looking after the working class in name only but slowly tightening the noose on them in the background.
Glad to be of service, comrade
What have the romans ever done for us?
How sweet of you to live down to expectations.
What an arsehole of a woman that buffoon Nandy is.
I’d just rather not live with permanent Tory government
If the world goes to shit because of climate change and unfettered capitalism I couldn't really give a **** who the government is, it's the same result. This year carbon concentrations reached 415ppm. The last time it was that high the world was 3.5c hotter, and they're still rising. At that temperature the Amazon will be gone, the oceans dead and the ice caps irreversably melting. It's ok though cos we could have a nice labour government dishing out a bit more money to the poor and telling everyone to recycle more.
Is there any evidence out there that suggests labour lost the election because of their socialist policies?
I would say the loss was down to the brexit planLabour gambled by trying to drag the election away from brexit and that really has backfired now because everybody can blame the loss on any aspect of labours campaign but it really isn’t clear to me what the outcome would have been without brexit.
I would say that there isn't a single reason they lost, arguably there are three 1: was because rather than fight on the manifesto they decided to keep adding stuff in, nearly everyday billions of additional spending was added in 2: JC and his cronies were to a lot of people toxic, the reasons why were many and because of that it reached places normally solid labour. 3: the campaign was run to keep the left elected in labour, activists were sent from constituencies they should have kept to one's where either they were solid or where they had no chance but a defector was standing. This happened in Binners world of Bury North, why? Try and find a picture of the former MP and Corbyn together.....
Very high probability that as I think there will be new opposition party(s) that may more be in tune with the people.
It won't be Jo Swinson's Lib Dems, although it might be someone else's.
Any other contenders?
Sounds like Phillips is out… as she has no big union backing.
To be honest, she hasn’t proven herself during the leadership campaign at all, has she?
Who’s surprised and impressed me?
Thornberry & Butler
Who’ll win?
Starmer & Rayner
Who’d be a genuine nightmare?
Burgon
Much sooner have Rosena Allin-Khan as deputy than Rayner.
She’d already impressed me as well, during the general election campaign. But Butler has surprised me, and Rayner will win, and Burgon comes across more and more as someone with the potential to kill the party.
Cue lots of clueless type comments...
Kelvin - what has Butler said/done to impress?
I've never heard her say anything vaguely intelligent.
I see Phillips is already getting her excuses ready about being too common rather than the real reason that she's just not very good and people in the party don't have a much time for her due to her spending the last few years promoting herself by trashing the party and it's leadership. Good riddance.