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how do folk who regularly jump from auto to manual car and back find it ? This will be my situation when new car arrives next year and wife still has a manual...
I'm in that situation, I don't like driving her Manual Yeti. But going from DSG to manual is fine other than a bit of shunt changing gears.
The Manual is poor in my opinion.
I had two previous autos from older generation cars and they were woeful on MPG (Low 20s). But new DSG 1.2 delivers more MPG than Manual of the same car and same engine.
My better half has a manual Polo and I have the auto Polo.
Very easy to jump between them. I find changing gear is just like driving a bike- you don't really forget the sequence. It's just perfecting the bite point.
But new DSG 1.2 delivers more MPG than Manual of the same car and same engine.
In the unrealistic official tests it might, in practice there is unlikely to be any significant advantage, if any.
I have just checked on Skoda's website-the difference is 1.2 mpg on the combined cycle in favour of the DSG and identical extra urban.
The other thing to consider on the 'fuel saving' issue is, if the auto is an option, then the additional cost of the auto/DSG gearbox will take a very long time to recoup. For example DSG in a Skoda VRs is £1400 more. Thats a lot of petrol. And, as I checked out, after 3 years having DSG makes for a very small ( £200 or less) increase in value.
Don't get me wrong, if others want the auto that's absolutly fine, but they are not for everyone and have some significant disadvantages as well as advantages so only you have to make that choice.
On average I'd bet a significant part of my body that for most people auto's (assuming modern auto boxes) are far more fuel efficient. Car engines have very narrow power bands - only a few hundred RPM wide. An auto box will achieve the best gear more often than a manual, gear changes will happen at optimal revs (not always the lowest revs you can change at) and some people with absolutely no understanding of anything mechanical will be all over the place with their gear changing habits. And I've lost count of the number of times I've been cruising along a dual carriageway or motorway and suddenly realise I'm not in top gear, so have probably been cruising along for a good 20 or 30 mins or so in a sub-optimal gear.
Human beings are not particularly efficient at anything, an auto gearbox is on it 100% of the time, its a robot. Humans are distracted, make poor choices and get bored and fatigued. Machines do repetitive tasks better than humans, that is just a fact.
Go on, I'm going to be controversial here and propose that the real reason pro-manual box people like manual boxes is that it feeds their own egotistical opinion of their driving ability and thinks it portrays to other people an image of a driving god who is at one with their machinery. When I cut to the chase that is exactly why I used to convince myself I preferred a manual box. They're not faster, they're not more economical and they are certainly not easier to drive.
I don't think I'm a driving god, certainly only average. I may be unusual in that if the statistics sometimes quoted that over 80% of drivers questioned think they are above average, but I just don't like the auto's I have driven. It's a choice I've made.
Perhaps those who have paid extra for the Auto think they are superior because they have to justify to themselves the expense?*
Even if autos are more efficient, say even 10% more efficient that would still mean that the difference between 45mpg and 50mpg for a Fabia in the real world would at 10000 miles mean spending £100 a year more in fuel. The auto box costs, say £1000 so it would take 10 years to break even. If fuel cost was your only consideration it doesn't make much sense. But there are other reasons to choose.
* i don't think this is true, just that it is as provable as the driving god assertion
Manual cars used to be faster and used to be more efficient so that is where it comes from. It's only fairly recently that better auto boxes are available on more affordable cars. I remember driving my parents Jazz that had an auto. What a hateful gear box that was. My current car has an auto and it's much better than the Jazz (So it should be at that price!) I'm still getting used to it. I'd rather it didn't change gears just when I'm entering a bend on a country road though as it's quite disconcerting.
iainc » how do folk who regularly jump from auto to manual car and back find it ? This will be my situation when new car arrives next year and wife still has a manual...
I do this a couple of times a month at the most - don't find it an issue.
how do folk who regularly jump from auto to manual car and back find it ? This will be my situation when new car arrives next year and wife still has a manual...
Easy. Although once or twice I have stopped myself trying to engage 1st without depressing the clutch Doh!
The thing I'm finding is that I'm no longer continually wondering what the engine is doing - not watching the rev counter, not listening to the engine sound, not caring what gear it's in. Amazing how much brainpower I was devoting to that!
This car has the manual up/down option too - tried it once, and can't honestly see the point of it.
Auto for me for most of the last 20 years. I prefer it, especially on a diesel, but wouldn't presume to tell anyone that it's better.
how do folk who regularly jump from auto to manual car and back find it ? This will be my situation when new car arrives next year and wife still has a manual...
Swap between my auto and the wife's manual a few times per week. It's fine.
gonefishin - good point about gear changes mid corner. Mine did that once in sports auto mode in the 1 series resulting in an armful of opposite lock. Very scary and kind of justifies the sports manual mode because you would never bang an upshift in manually with any meaningful amount of steering lock dialled in.
I have an Audi with the S-Tronic box (2103 plate 3.0l diesel V6) and I hate it. The delay on pulling away drives me up the wall - just today I tried to pull away quickly from some lights (cheeky driver pulling up in r/h lane to go straight on and jump the queue). They were in a bog-standard old Golf and they pulled away quicker than I could - granted I soon pulled back up and in front of them, but it is that delay from a standing start that bugs me - and after 3 years of driving it I am yet to really get to grips with solving the standing start issue.
I *did* have a newer A5 as a courtesy car recently and they have improved that issue considerably though.
Ohh, and I regularly swap between the auto and my wife's manual (10 year old Mazda 3) and never have a problem (and I prefer driving the knackered old manual)
Mine did that once in sports auto mode
I have had similar. Playing a bit on opposite lock, the damn thing then changed up a gear, giving traction back to the rear end, which was not fun.
Now will only go quickly with manual shifting... and trying to predict at which point I need to use the paddle given the delay between pressing the paddle and the actual change.
Also the BMW 8 speed box isn't equally gapped ratios (on mine anyhow) so you can change down in to a corner to find it barely alters revs, in fact you could have knocked it down 2 or 3 gears!
Overtaking is by far my biggest annoyance though. The auto box keeps rev around 2k which isn't enough for overtaking. There is plenty of torque from 2.5k so I change down 1 gear. However the bloody auto then knocks it down at least one more and red lines it, which doesn't do the engine any good and actually takes time.
Funkydunc - I take it that is the 8 speed ZF in your beemer? What year? Mine is on a 65 plate and there is almost instant upshifts in manual/sports mode (certainly no noticeable delay). Downshifts get a decent blip and are quick too - in mine you can also jump mutliple cogs at once in manual/sports mode (hit the kick down in say 8th then pull the left paddle and it will give you the lowest available gear, e.g. 8th to 3rd, with very little delay whatsoever).
Chris Harris actually had to re-record his original review of my car as he thought it was DCT not a traditional (albeit quite clever) auto.
I take it that is the 8 speed ZF in your beemer? What year?
Its about 4 weeks old and yes 8 speed... There is a definite delay between touching the paddle and the gear change. It feels like a second or so.
In manual I have over reved it because it hasn't changed when I've clicked the paddle. Also changing down in to bends it is even more noticeable you literally have to think in advance when to change, to get it at the point you want it to be.
It is the 330e (hybrid) so whether that has some impact on the drivetrain speed??
in fact, I might drop in to BMW. There have been a couple of occasions where it has gone a bit bonkers. At one point in manual going up the box it just lost all drive ie said I was in 6th but the engine was in neutral. Other time I clicked up the box, but it went down !
You definitely have not over-revved it. It isn't possible to do so.
Rachel
^^^^^ these ones with paddles, what is the point of them ?
My new car will have them, salesman said that very few people use them and they are a gimmick... they come as standard tho.
[i]^^ these ones with paddles, what is the point of them ?[/i]
See from [url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/new-car-time-auto-or-manual/page/2#post-8088539 ]here[/url]
In our new cars the 9speed auto is the smoothest auto I've driven - quite amazing and pretty quick to change gear but the DSG we have is something else (for those of you bemoaning slow changes and response to the throttle), it's just unbelievably quick at changing gear. Pretty smooth too.
DezB - yeah, I have read the posts, still can't see the point in the paddles; sounds like they are a gimmick as they don't seem to be able to do the job as well timed or as quickly as the computer that controls the auto shifting though...
Genuinely interested to know why they get fitted as standard to so many normal cars
it is possible for an auto to over-rev, if it's faulty.
I once hired a Hyundi Accent in the States- it was the cheapest thing I could get hold of- It was brand new, less than 50 miles on the clock. I drove out of Seattle airport on the freeway and at 55mph for no good reason it decided to drop two (of four) gears which had three effects:
1. It felt like I nearly hit the windscreen as the car rapidly decelerated- it was enough for the seatbelt to lock
2. The guy behind nearly piled into the back of me as I had slowed down without the brake light coming on- he let me know he wasn't impressed...
3. the engine revved some way into the red zone on the tacho
When this had happened for the third time I stopped, got Alamo on the phone who directed me to their nearest base and I swapped it for a Toyota Tercel. Much nicer. that had a 4 speed planetary geared/torque converter auto and it was quite nice to drive. a manual would have been better in the mountains though.(IMHO)
Funkydunc - you need to get that back to the dealership in fairly short order! Definitely sounds like it's not performing as it should. I don't know if mine is mapped differently in the 135i but the test drive I had I a 335d didn't feel massively different (albeit only 45 mins or so.... I sharp realised an oil burner wasn't for me no matter how fast!)
i have been trying to think of why you would choose a manual, and i have come up with two reasons.
1. you cant afford an auto
2. you drive an MX5autos are so nice these days, and changing gear is just boring. everything else on the car is automated why would you want to stamp up and down on a clutch pedal all day long?
Because a manual if you know how to drive still gives you more car control than an Auto box. With a manual you can be in the right gear at the right time an plan ahead, setting up the car properly ahead of what's expected of it. With an Auto you sometimes just have to hope it does what you ask of it.
Sure modern Auto's with paddles etc are getting much better but many in my experience still find it difficult to cope when something unexpected happens. Driving up to Cairngorm ski slope last year is an obvious one. Two identical BMW 320d's, except one manual, one Auto. Both cars struggled to make it up the hill, but with the manual we were able to think outside the box, use delicate clutch control and the correct gear to get it to the top. The Auto just couldn't cope, we couldn't get it to do what we wanted, it lacked the fine control we needed, the snow and ice and lack of grip just confused it and we ended up having to leave it half way down the hill for the day.
Good call on the snow/ice. I got caught out in my auto in a hail storm in Newcastle and it was all over the shop!!
haha no iain but I was trolling 😀
no one really bit though sadly
One thing I do use the flaps for (when I touch them vary rarely) is engine breaking as I do miss that from a manual when you don't want to go as hard on the brakes. So even though they are rarely used it's handy to have them just incase.
BMW in the snow? aren't they rear wheel drive? that's probably the issue there surely... not saying the manual isn't better to handle in the snow as I bet it is but a front wheel drive or a quattro would have done much better in an auto guise.
However you want a car with thinner tyres in the snow and the right tyres, too many variables going on to blame it purely on the auto being crap in the snow.
DezB - yeah, I have read the posts, still can't see the point in the paddles; sounds like they are a gimmick as they don't seem to be able to do the job as well timed or as quickly as the computer that controls the auto shifting though...Genuinely interested to know why they get fitted as standard to so many normal cars
I use the paddles all the time on mine, quick touch to make the car hold a gear for longer or for those times when full on sport mode is too much but auto mode isn't enough to get up to speed on a slip road or similar. People mentioned earlier about the car changing gear mid corner, if you're pushing on enough to worry about it then operating in manual mode with the flappy paddles is a safer way to make it hold on to the gears properly with two hands on the wheel.
Just tap backwards on the gear stick to return to normal drive.
Paddles are useful if you know you are going to need a lower gear say for an overtake or if you are descending a long hill and want to use engine braking or it's snowy and you want to select 2nd or 3rd to pull away. Or simply for a bit of fun. There are a number of reasons some granted are better than others.
I use my flappy paddles usually when I have got utterly bored of the car being fully auto. The thing is, they feel completely disengaged to what is actually going on and I struggle to know what gear I am in, what the revs are like etc. And don't get me started on the fact they are fixed to the steering wheel rather than the stem so when I drive 'normally' (feeding the wheel) I often forget which side is which. They are fun when doing full-on F1 style with fixed 10/2 hand positions though...
BMW in the snow? aren't they rear wheel drive? that's probably the issue there surely... not saying the manual isn't better to handle in the snow as I bet it is but a front wheel drive or a quattro would have done much better in an auto guise.However you want a car with thinner tyres in the snow and the right tyres, too many variables going on to blame it purely on the auto being crap in the snow.
Nope not really, both were RWD, one Auto, one Manual (hire cars) - like night and day in the snow. Sure, BMW's not generally great in the snow without winter tyres but the Auto made it un-drivable when the going got tough, the manual with a bit of coaxing made it. Not the driver either, I was in the manual and had a go in the Auto too once my mates got stuck. I couldn't do any better than my friend did to get it going.
and after 3 years of driving it I am yet to really get to grips with solving the standing start issue.
Take it to the dealer and ask them to do a clutch reset.
My Passat would always bog down on quick starts until, through the course of all the trouble I've had with ECUs and all (mostly not VW's fault) I did the clutch reset procedure. Now holds proper revs when you pull away and there's no delay. Doesn't give you full tyre smoking burnout, but it's quick enough.
I have a genuine question, how do the new auto's cope now with snowy icy conditions.
I have a steep single lane road (which is never gritted) to access my property which need quite a bit of clutch control from standstill when starting off in icy snowy condition?
Are Auto's still a no-no in these situations or have things changed?
I have a genuine question, how do the new auto's cope now with snowy icy conditions.
I run winter tyres, so fine 🙂
I only had one snowy situation without them. Coming into our housing estate up a slope, but with a long runup I very nearly got stuck. However that was driver error - given the lack of traction contorl button on the car and the fact it would wheelspin on hard pulling away, I assumed it had no traction control. But I'd not realied that ESP includes traction control, and that the wheelspin is limited. So on the snowy slope I wanted to gun it but the ESP wouldn't let me and kept the revs down.
If I'd turned off the ESP I'd have been fine. But generally the car's clutch control is pretty good and the car can be fettled. I've got out of muddy caravan sites with ours, not really any different to doing it with a manual. I also reverse the van up the slope next to our house, which is perfectly doable too.
Well that sounds promising molgrips, I think I need to sniff round some Auto's as I am getting tired of using a manual gearbox in all to often slow moving stop start traffic too.
Caveat that though - I've had my car for 7 years and know it very well; I have good fine motor control and I can't speak for other autos or even other cars.
My wife can't seem to back the car into our slightly sloping drive, whereas I find it easy. So YMMV.
Snow and Ice, badly, it's *always* autos/DSG/AMT that get stuck on our road, even on winter tyres.
That annoying shift half way up the hill, on the steep bit, upsets the traction and bingo, wheel spin into the ditch. If you use more throttle to keep it in second, you get the same wheelspin.......
That's why you use the paddles. Or the manual override. Hold second all the way up. Same for towing. Paddles all the way.
The autos rely on sensors (which aren't perfect), second guessing the conditions (which aren't always exactly as you expect) and trying to work out what the dummy behind the wheel will do. Which is sometimes the stupid option.
They are getting better though.
Personally, i'd never buy an auto with my own money, i like to keep cars (of my own) for several years, well into the "big repair" phase. One big repair on an auto might effectively write the car off at 7 or 8 years old.
Company cars, my next one is likely to be auto. So i'll have to live with the worse fuel consumption. (I can exceed the stated figures on my normal journey by ~15%, in an auto it's about right.)
One big repair on an auto might effectively write the car off at 7 or 8 years old.
Only if you fall into the 'book price fallacy' trap - see the Saab thread for an explanation.
They are an extra mechanical risk yes, but it's so nice to drive it's worht it for me. Let's face it, aircon, electric windows and power steering can all go wrong.
Funny man.
I do all spannering myself.
Replacing an auto is a world of pain.
Recon boxes of doubtful quality, cleaning out the cooler and cooler lines, trying to get the TCU to talk to the ECU and everything else on the CAN. Especially with dodgy recons. And ECUs of the wrong generation/wrong software level.
Trying to work out the original fault (it's not always the auto, that could just be a symptom)
On the plus side, a cycling colleague at works wife is a team leader for auto development and installation, he works in a similar area. So fault diagnostics would be easier these days.
And FWIW the sort of driving i do, an auto is no benefit at all.
First DSG in my second Yeti. I drive a lot and spend much of that not moving much on the M42. The DSG is brilliant for the most relaxing way of getting from a to b. It's mildly irritating on steep down hills when it panics a bit and start changing down very quickly but otherwise it's just brilliant. Mine's only the little 1.2 petrol and if I've an overtake coming up I might drop it into sport but I'm generally not in a hurry nowadays 😉
Next one I have will be the bigger Skoda (probably) with a bigger engine just so I can get more space to put bikes in. DSG is the first thing on the list of things it has to have.
My wife liked the DSG so much when we replaced her car, we got one in that.
There might be something about the 'driving experience' that I don't understand but a car for me is to get me where I need to go with the least amount of effort. The DSG is a big part of that...
how do folk who regularly jump from auto to manual car and back find it ? This will be my situation when new car arrives next year and wife still has a manual...
It's a regular part of my job to jump from a manual to an auto, or vis versa, two or three times a day. It's worse going manual to auto, because I stomp on the brake pedal thinking it's the clutch pedal, and sometimes shove the stick into neutral at the same time! Usually only happens when taking the car out of where I'm picking it up from. 😳
I have to say, the auto boxes on many cars like MPV's, Picassos, Zafiras, and the like do tend to be very sluggish on the upshifts, taking ages before deciding to shift, then the shift seems to take ages.
The autos on saloons/hatches, like VW, Audi, BMW, etc are a whole different world, though, having to drive through urban traffic then onto long stretches of motorway/dual-carriageway, then long stretches of slow-moving traffic through roadworks, like the 12 miles on the M6, coupled with modern cruise control, really does make driving a pleasure.
If I was replacing the old Octavia, it would be a very difficult choice, I do like a manual coupled to a diesel, I can drive for miles on A/B-roads with little use of the brakes, just by shifting appropriately and letting the engine slow the car; following someone who's on the brakes all the time drives me nuts, the constant flashing of bright red lights in my face gets very irritating.
I do all spannering myself
In that case, DSGs are actually quite easy to fix. I'm sure I told you about mine.
I love driving me 3 speed torque convertor Toyota Corolla.
Nope.I'm sure I told you about mine.
[quote="chewkw"]blahexcuse me if I discount the ramblings of a crack addict.
still can't see the point in the paddles
It's to make drivers of automatics feel special, like a racing driver 😆
When you buy an auto you've probably hit middle age and started to give up on life a bit and do things like wearing slippers, playing golf, sitting in front the fire, buy an e bike. Those paddles help soften the blow a bit that life is gradually slipping away from you and inject a bit of slow clunky changing fun into the otherwise dullness of driving an auto 😉
I'm sure I told you about mine.
Nope
Long story short - because a dodgy mechanic had replaced the engine ECU with one that was incorrect, the gearbox had been slurring its changes really badly an had somehow worn out the main clutch valves. After eventually taking it to VW they showed me a TSB that described a condition where worn hydraulic valves would cause my symptoms.
New mechatronic unit from VW - £1800 fitted
Mechatronic refurb from somewhere in Nottingham - £450 ship it yourself
New valves from some bloke in Denmark - 80 € each.
Turns out the unit is very well designed, all the valves and electronics are stuck to the front of the unit and can be removed without taking the box out. And the valves are stuck to the front so you all you need to do is drain it and take the cover off to change the valves. Took an hour or two.
ski - Member
I have a genuine question, how do the new auto's cope now with snowy icy conditions.
Also something I have been pondering over. We stay in a high urban area south of Glasgow which gets a decent amount of winter weather and are in a newish estate with steep hills.
Currently on second manual BMW tourer which is understandably crap in the snow, and as a company car no winter tyre option.
In march I'm getting a lease auto audi with 4wd, but still standard tyres. I'm hoping it will be a lot better but not expecting too much with fat tyres and auto box ....