Ok, my neighbour applied for planning to build a massive extension which we objected against and it was refused.
They are now wanting to build a 3m extension which I understand they don't need to apply for planning for. However they want to build it right up against my boundary and it would affect the use of our house.
Where they want to build it would be right up against our house. Do they have to have to send us a party wall notice or something?
The wall they are going to build up against has the flue for our balanced flue gas fire - does this affect things??
I just need any sort of ammo to try and stop them building the extension as it will affect the value of our house for sure and we want to move soon.
They are very unreasonable so it's been difficult to speak to them even though I've been nice.
I can do a diagram later if needed.
They still need to go for permitted development, though you won't be consulted on this. As you mention, they will need to serve a party wall notice on you, this will give you the chance to ensure you are not unduly affected and it sounds like you will be going down the route of needing a party wall surveyor to review on your behalf.
You still have a right to light, though the law on this is a bit wooly as I understand it so the LA may decline PD, also PD is limited in conservation areas.
This is stuff I've gathered off the internet so not gospel as I'm looking at undertaking PD extension myself.
It could be that the size of earlier extension means they are right up to the limit of what is allowed on that plot. Vaguely remember something about no more than 50% over and above the original house size in total.
Diagram
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Is your extra bit part of the original house, or an extension? A normal semi would be the same...if yours is an extension I imagine you have to accept that they have the same rights?
Is agreeing with sc-xc
And why do you think someone building an extension will effect the value of your property? People build extensions all the time - I say you relax a little, be calm and reasonable but just point out to them about the balanced flue and ask what they will do to resolve that issue.
Looks like they're not touching your house assuming they're just off the centre line for their new wall (like you've done)
Is there any maintenance you need to do in that thin gap to your flue? Might be worth shifting it
Going by that drawing something odd is going on with your boundary.
The fence "should" be along the centre line.
Its looks like he is staying the 0.5m away from your boundary to not need a Party Wall Agreement.
As your extension has done previously.
As someone attempting to get planning for a fairly major extension, I don't believe an objection simply based on 'I don't like it and I'm trying to sell my house' carries much credence.
I thought that permitted development was over 1m from the boundary. If it's using the party wall doesn't that require planning no matter how big it is?
Have a look at the [url=www.planningportal.gov.uk]www.planningportal.gov.uk[/url]
You've missed an apostrophe from "neighbour's".
Have you got a window to the front next to that fence?
Heard of a builder who put a flu through into neighbours garden space, came home from work and found flu smashed to bits on his front lawn when he went into house, expanding foam had been squirted into flu opening destroying boiler, neighbour didnt want it steaming into his garden .
Jambo - yes I know that, it's just a bit of extra info. The council refused their original planning app because of my objection. I know a little bit about planning through my job but the party wall thing is a bit more complex.
They are very unreasonable.
Yeah, I bet.
antimony, no you can extend along the boundary under PD, just double checked!
If your sketch is to scale then they may be over the 50% rule, though I'm not sure you've got too much to complain about.
They will have to notify Building control who will then tell them what they can or cannot do.
I thought that permitted development was over 1m from the boundary
Might be different up here but nope, I built within the guidelines on the boundary.
OP - hate to say it but it does sound like you're being unreasonable on the face of it. Unless his extension is blocking light (windows) or access to your flue (which shouldn't be allowed) then I'd say you have no reasonable grounds to complain.
And on party walls, I believe that only covers the party wall itself and not outside boundaries? Again, I never had one of those to deal with.
As for smashing a flue and blocking the outlet, that would have been hilarious had he ended up killing the occupants. Some people are just ****s.
Why'd you object the first one? Just 'cos NIMBY or did you have a proper reason? Are you objecting to this one because they'd have a bigger house than you?
Hammyuk - the fence isn't on the centreline. We are terraced house and they have the corridor between the houses on their land. It is a bit weird Tbh and hard to show in a quick drawing.
The main issue is that they want to build straight up to our boundary but the party wall act says something about a notice if their wall is within 3m of ours - they have to instruct a party wall solicitor or surveyor to check that when they dig for foundations or something it won't affect our building. Not too sure how it pans out in practice.
We can't move the flue as there isn't anywhere else to put the fireplace that's inside the house! The balanced flue bit sticks straight out of the back of the fire in our case.
"access to your flue (which shouldn't be allowed) "
Irellevent the flue shouldnt be there . Should be 600mm from the boundary line not to mention it sticking out into his land ....
It all smells a bit nimby..... I mean you got your extension...
Glasgowdan - what do you mean by that?
I am just making sure that they follow the rules. If they do everything right and they are allowed to build it in fine with that, but their attitude has been that "we can build what we like and we don't care about you". The new occupant never even spoke to us before they applied for the PP and the first app I objected to was refused for good reason - it was a plan to build something absolutely huge which would have made our garden completely overshadowed by a 4m high extension and it was completely out of proportion with other developments on the street.
The new occupant has been quite nasty with me when I first greeted them with insults thrown my way even though I was really nice to them.
You'll have to trust me on this one but when they have spoken about "their builders" they sound a bit sketchy. I'd rather put the legwork in now and make sure it is done properly rather than try to deal with a nightmare later.
We've got a case going on at the moment re a flue discharging onto someone else's land - its all getting very messy!
Their house is different to ours as its wider and it already has a 2 storey extension on it AND the little one they are planning to knock down and replace with the bigger one.
Both houses were 1 up 1 downs and have been extended in the distant past to double their size. Their new proposal is in addition to those original extensions.
"access to your flue (which shouldn't be allowed) "Irellevent the flue shouldnt be there . Should be 600mm from the boundary line not to mention it sticking out into his land ....
Sorry, I meant blocking the access shouldn't be allowed.
EDIT:Ah, Party Wall Act doesn't apply in Scotland or NI
Google the party wall act, it's all explained in there.
Best advice I can think of is try and make peace as the building process isn't fun for either party and I suspect they'll be within their rights to extend.
Their new proposal is in addition to those original extensions.
There is a time limit when an extension becomes 'incorporated' into the house and is no longer classed as an extension as such – I *THINK* it might be seven years but happy to be corrected.
What i mean is that these situations are almost always more complex and balanced than the one sided story we get on Internet forums.
An extension is a big decision that affects people's lives, gives them room to enjoy their time at home and invest their money and I've seen sad cases where neighbours have made months or years of misery for someone because they don't want them to get their dream!
Sounds like they may be pushing beyond the allowance for 50%, the three metre rule is from the back of the original house, not an extension that has been built, otherwise you could just keep putting in applications to extend off the back of an extension.
Also check how much of the garden is taken up.
Johndoh, is that true? I thought it was based on a date, 1948 springs to mind, obviously buildings post this date are as per the original plans.
I think it has to be a little give and take.
Is your flue discharging straight into the neighbours garden? If I was them I wouldnt like that tbh.
1. You have no right to discharge your flue over their land
2. Their foundations are very likely to be deeper than yours so they will need to serve a Notice of Adjacent Excavation on you under the Party Wall etc Act 1996. You can then appoint a Surveyor to act for you at their cost
End of discussion.
Johndoh, is that true? I thought it was based on a date, 1948 springs to mind, obviously buildings post this date are as per the original plans.
Possibly - I heard of this quite recently when a neighbour of the in-laws built on to existing extensions so I don't know of the full details - as I said, I would happily stand corrected.
Is the original terrace only about 3 to 4m front to back, or is that not drawn to scale properly?
Looks like it falls foul of 50% to me.
EDIT: And I don't see how that can fall under permitted development - I think the 3 metre figure is 3 square metres rather than 3x3, if you see what I mean.
Where you based Op? Some wild advice being thrown around without all the facts, you also sound worked up about it by your reaction to Glasgowdan. This may not be the best place to seek solace!
Tell us where you live, as the party wall act may not even apply.
Have you a building warrant for your flue discharging over the boundary? I doubt it, but you never know.
How do you think it's going to affect the value of your property?
On what grounds do you think you can still object? And have you spoken to the planners, and I mean spoken, in person? It would probably help you a great deal to understand exactly what they are entitled to do on their property. What you consider unreasonable may be entirely reasonable?
Good luck getting it sorted.
What was your original objection?
Is this in the ashton area of bristol by any chance?
50% rule....how can you tell this from that drawing....does it show the size of the garden ?
Also, if any house sale goes through, you may fall foul of "Are you in dispute with your neighbour" questions -- we nearly cam to grief on that with a boundary / shared wall that neighbour knocked down on the morning of first viewings. Not happy.
I'm in Yorkshire.
Yeah I know about the dispute thing, I'm trying to be amicable, they did apologise after the first conversation but we aren't exactly best buddies. 😉
I could only object to their first proposal that it would be unduly dominating on our property and it wasn't in keeping with other developments in the area. I had no right to object due to light being cut out or the effect on the value of our house so I didn't mention those points - but that doesn't mean it won't have those effects!
I can't object to this new idea as I think it's permitted development BUT may fall foul of the 50% rule - I'll have to do some measurements. I have no idea when the first extension was built - it wasn't in the last 50 years as we have a neighbour who has been here that long but it could easily be after the 1948 cutoff - I don't know how to find out when that was built.
Don't put too much store in the 1948 date, just a vague recollection from looking into this for my own purposes, whatever the rule was it didn't apply in my case so it's no longer lodged in my head 😉
Your deeds should have plans of your original building plans, might be worth trawling through them.
Best bet is look on the planning portal for permitted development, the guides are pretty clear. Have a review of the party wall act.
The 1948 date is correct (or the date of construction if the property is more recent). PD restricts the total area of any extension(s) to less than 50% of the original 1948 curtilage (i.e. garden area) excluding the original house footprint.
If the proposed extension is between 3 and 6m deep from the original wall of the house then the owners need to get prior approval from the LPA and it will involve neighbour consultation, where you get a chance to object. If it's under 3m deep then they don't need prior approval. The height is also restricted to 4m or 3m within 2m of the site boundary.
Have a look at
particularly pages 15-16.
If you look on the LPA's website you can search the planning history for their property - if any extensions have been built in the last couple of decades records should come up.
i wonder how your neighbour felt when you built your monster extension projecting beyond his house dominating it ?
The drawing isn't to scale (DUH!) and their smaller extension they want to demolish was constructed before ours and actually projects out further than ours already.
I think he probably needs a certificate of lawfulness for his extension (which is basically planning permission lite)
The Party Wall agreement (as defined in the Party Wall Act) is a civil matter between you and your neighbour.
The idea being is you (as the neighbour) gets the opportunity to review and agree what he is doing before he starts.
The close proximity to your property, and the depth of any foundations will definitely fall within the scope of the party wall act.
He should write to you (letter template from internet) and include a copy of the construction drawings of his proposed works - you then have the opportunity to review and comment.
I think your neighbour is obligated to pay for you to have a separate survey of the works if you want.
The letter should include a slip for you to sign and return to say you agree with the works.
I went through all this 2 years ago with our extension (which required us to remove a chimney stack that served both us and our neighbour)
Having put in an extension years ago I think neighbours can use the Party Wall Act to cause trouble and expense but not to stop anything from being built. Right to light isn't likely to be an issue unless the extension blocks a window pretty directly.
fionap has it. It sounds highly likely that the extensions already built will have taken up the PD allowance - unless they are pre 1948. Therefore planning permission will be required in the normal way.
I suspect you may have a problem with the flue discharge though, as others have said. Unless it's been like that for more than 12 years and no one has objected before - and written permission with the neighbours wasn't received at the time. IANAL though.
PWA definitely protects your rights so that looks appropriate.
If you've windows in the end section then there's a rule I think about their extension not projecting across a line drawn at 45deg from your window or something like that.
You also don't want a tiny corridor as from a maintenance point of view that could be tricky to repoint etc even though less likely to be needed. I'd be after a 1m gap or to have it tie in with your wall.
I'd also be rerouting that flue.
Why not insert a window as close to the bottom right hand corner as possible or just extend yours even further? 😉
Ignoring the fact that your unhappy with the proposal if the new building goes up and your flue remains where it is your house will become a death trap. Needs 1 meter all the way around minimum!
The PWA is in the interests of the wall it doesn't protect any rights as such Its there so that you and the other party can agree on the current schedule of condition of the affected wall (adjoining or within 3m of the proposed new build) and also schedule of the proposed works. If you both agree to not having a PWA then you can with a supporting agreement or if you choose you can get a survey done by either one appointed by you and another by the other party or a single surveyor agreed by both (ie you can appoint the surveyor and the other party can also use the same) it is all at the other parties cost and has fairly strict time limits. They cannot proceed until this is complete although many do and if needs be you can stop them temporarily. As for the %50 rule... well its more of a guideline and most planning depts these days are pretty flexible and if its within PD then it probably wouldn't be an issue. The flue may well be a sticking point as it looks like it would fall foul of building regs and who would be liable would be anyone's guess... If it were me id definitely get a PWA in place as if anything goes wrong with the build then you have the appropriate evidence (this should include their builders PLI) but other than this id say there isnt a lot you can do...
But of an update. I mentioned a PWA agreement to my new neighbour but they said they didn't need one. We had a chat about their plans and I decided to leave it, but monitor the building works closely - pretty easy as I see it constantly so didn't have to snoop. The builders are really good so I chatted with them a bit and helped them out a bit with access if they needed it.
We would have been able to see the new extension from our lounge but as it was PD there was nothing to be done about it now so I accepted that no problem. However the planners were keeping a close eye on the building works too it seems.
I came home last night to find that the side of the extension facing us had been moved back about 3 feet away from us. I asked the builders why and they said the planning officer came round and said they couldn't build it as big as they were trying to as it would have blocked access down the side of the house where there is a little passageway.
The result is that we now can't see any of the extension from our lounge and the effect on light in out garden will be much less.
I feel sorry for my neighbour as they now have a much smaller extension than they wanted but I'm happy I kept calm, knew my rights but let things slide when I realised being a pain just wouldn't help matters. The result is that we aren't affected as much as we feared and we have kept on good terms with them, which will help us and whoever buys our house in the future. 😀
They probably think you grassed them up to the planners 🙂
Yeah, expect dead, burning cats to be posted through your letterbox at regular intervals 🙂
Nice to hear that the system works!
Suprised the planners didn't pick that up earlier.
If the neightbours had employed an architect for drawings I'd be fairly annoyed they hadn't thought of it either.
ctk - Member
They probably think you grassed them up to the planners
POSTED 3 HOURS AGO # REPORT-POST
We objected to their original permission for a massive extension they asked for and that was fine, they know that.
When I had a chat with the neighbour she said the planning dept was keeping a close eye on it and had said their new smaller plans were fine so it must be annoying for them to have to change their plans again. They should know it doesn't have anything to do wth us. Benefits us, yes, but I think they know we are innocent!
After planning consent for the Behemoth was denied, did they seek a Certificate of Lawfulness for the new extension? It's not really necessary, but if they didn't, I suspect Building Control grassed them up to the planning dept...
Dunno, the neighbour said that planning had checked the new plans and said they were ok. So either planning changed their minds OR they weren't given the full story by our neighbours/their builders/architects I suppose. I suspect by the way my neighbours have after its probably one of the latter options.
Yeah, expect dead, burning cats to be posted through your letterbox at regular intervals
Live burning cats would be worse.
^ Just cats posted through the letter box would be bad enough, they would be all broken, dead and leaking if they had to be squeezed through
Best to use bonsai kittens for this sort of thing
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I suspect Building Control grassed them up to the planning dept...
In most LA's they seem to share the same office space, and funnily enough speak about the projects they are working on.
We had a neighbor in Sheffield that had built an extension with no Planning. When the Building Control officer came to sign our works off, he spoke to a colleague in Planning - and ructions ensued.
Pleased for you OP, seems a good outcome.
I find it bizarre that people build stuff with no planning, especially if the building works would affect others who are obviously going to grass them up.
Asking building control to check the construction but not bothering with planning is double bonkers!
There was a telly peogramme recently about this with some really nice big houses getting knocked down - and some odd ones
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