Neds ( chavs) and politeness

I don't think it matters what you're shouting TJ, or if you can't tell if it's a man or a woman. If it is a woman, you're a man riding towards a woman yelling and that's incredibly threatening.

I wonder if the entitlement is city specific, I've not ridden in urban Glasgow much so can't compare the two places.

I'll ponder that.  I'm not sure that gives them a carte blanch to cycle antisocially which is what the over bright dazzling lights are.  But I will ponder it.

I wonder if the entitlement is city specific,

Its would seem it maybe is from the responses.

I graduated from Sunderland early 2000s and heard the term ‘charver’ a lot while up there but don’t recall ever hearing chav, as when back home in Kent a short while later remember hearing chav in use and assumed people were just getting charver all wrong.

I was at school at the time and remember Chav coming in to the general usage.

Before then, the word we used for the be-tracksuited aspiring petty criminal rhymed with Likey. It was never intended as a reference to the travelling community in any way, it specifically refered to the people mentioned in this thread.

(Those of the travelling community were refered to by words that rhymed with Poughkeepsie or hippo)

Chavs were townies when I was at secondary school.

I wonder if we remember the outliers - chavs being polite and ostensibly middle-class folk being rude - because it's incongruous? All the folk who behave according to type get forgotten.

I don’t think it matters what you’re shouting

If I am riding along and someone shouts something at me it usually sounds like "mmugh mugh murrgh". With wind noise it's pretty tricky to discern if it's a friendly request or otherwise.

If I am riding along and someone shouts something at me it usually sounds like “mmugh mugh murrgh”.

When I was a lad it was "geroff and milk it". Today I cycled past several pedestrians, dog walkers and a horse rider. All were polite, I can't comment on their social groups. Oh and one young lad who, had I been judgmental I might have thought likely to hurl an insult, gave me a thumbs up!

TJ - I suspect your lack of response to the the original apology is at the heart of what happened. The fact that they hadn't immediately acted in the manner you wanted is no reason to not respond in an amenable way. Simple pleasantries are the lube that keeps society from disintegrating. As soon as these are removed (such as in a car or on social media) everyone behaves like a ****.

First adjust your own behaviour

Just been for a spin today along a very popular disused railway and coastal cliff path near Arbroath. No issue with anyone, lots of people with dogs and not paying attention (ears phones in), but polite and friendly when I said 'Hi, please can I get past' and 'Thanks'.

Maybe being Scotland makes a difference as there isn't the 'no bikes on public footpaths' situation as there are no 'public footpaths'. Even on the pavements in town (not worth riding on the central dual carriageway even though it's a 30) as long as you're being sensible and not racing along no-one seems to care

Maybe being Scotland makes a difference

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TJ – I suspect your lack of response to the the original apology is at the heart of what happened. The fact that they hadn’t immediately acted in the manner you wanted is no reason to not respond in an amenable way. Simple pleasantries are the lube that keeps society from disintegrating. As soon as these are removed (such as in a car or on social media) everyone behaves like a ****.

First adjust your own behaviour

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Its certainly possible but the apology made was very passive aggressive and they made no attempt to let me past on a 5m wide path and went immediately to shouting abuse when I was silent for no more than a few seconds?   they had seen me for around 30 seconds before this but made no effort to let me past and the "apology" did not come until after I had been forced deliberately by them to stop

They were clearly spoiling for a fight.  Should I say thanks when they have done nothing to be thanked for indeed when they have been deliberately awkward?  She made not attempt to move either herself or the dog out of the way.  Her on one side of a 5 m path, dog on an extending lead the other.  They were shouting abuse before they let me past.  Its was literally a few seconds from the passive agressive apology to the abuse

Reflective practice tho.  without any blame:  what could I have done to avoid the situation?  could I have handled it better?  Perfectly valid questions.

This was just an example of middle class folk being rude and neds being polite.  I have had other very rude interactions with middle class folk when I am sure I did nothing to aggravate the situation

"If you run into an asshole in the morning, you ran into an asshole. If you run into assholes all day, you're the asshole."

To be honest it's not worth micro analysing these situations that much. He/you/us/them c/would have done this w/could have done that, so what, you didn't, they didn't, we're only human, find something else to fill your brain😃

Simple pleasantries are the lube that keeps society from disintegrating.

Sometimes people are just grumpy because they're tired, it's not always deliberate. Ofc sometimes they're just assholes. I'm not perfect either. Whatever. Probably best supply a bag of salt if making generalisations about people, which let's face it is tempting and sometimes a vaguely useful shortcut.

“If you run into an asshole in the morning, you ran into an asshole. If you run into assholes all day, you’re the asshole.”

Indeed.  I often wonder about these folk and who every dog walk must be ruined by having to argue with every cyclist they see 🙂

this stuff does not happen to me allthe time - indeed the first unpleasant interaction for a year or two

Chavs were townies when I was at secondary school.

Not from Blackpool are you @finbar? Chavs were townies here until around the late 90's. Kappa tracksuits were the uniform of the townie, chavs arrived with Burberry.

I, of course, was always immaculately dressed and above such things 😜

Used to do a fair bit of trail riding in Guildford. That you would encounter an entitled middle class dog walker or irascible geriatric rambler who would go out of their way to get in your way was priced in to every ride.

Rarely experience such things up here in Manny..

Guildford is the most middle class place win the country is it not? Which would corroborate tj's hypothesis.

I'm always bemused by posts from people encountering frothing drivers/ramblers/dog walkers on an hourly basis. I do more miles than most of you ****s and it just doesn't mirror my experience. Had a pleasant exchange with a horse lady today when I came up behind her. Same with a woman last week when I was passing along a bridleway through rural housing that could've been viewed as sensitive; ended up having a conversation about raised beds and freehub noises.

But then, week ago today, I was riding off t'moors towards Burnley along a landrover width track, with a van behind me; 12 oblivious ramblers completely blocking the way ahead...ok, happily slow down to walking pace, say: hello, there, I'm just behind you.....four times, until they take notice then scatter in panic, one of them falling over backwards in his haste to get out of the way of the psycho cyclist who's been quite happily freewheeling on his brakes behind them for the last few minutes. How does that measure up to the chav youths screaming uninvited abuse at me during a midnight commute home from work the week before?

What's the answer? Not lazy class generalisations, that's for sure. Personally I'm waiting for a real pandemic with a serious mortality rate, hopefully it's not far off. That'll sort it.

I do more miles than most of you ****

To and from charm school?

Not from Blackpool are you @finbar? Chavs were townies here until around the late 90’s. Kappa tracksuits were the uniform of the townie, chavs arrived with Burberry.

@richardkennerley I always secretly wanted some Kappa poppers (still do 😀 ).

Rural Derbyshire here though, at my school the main tribes were townies, skaters/bmxers and farmers...

I just sing at them
Really badly.
'it's all about you, it's all about you baby'
I don't know if they understand or even care but yes, some people can be disproportionately rude to cyclists in general but its a 2 way street. They might have had a proper mouthful from a group of bikers before, so now they get in first and unleash a torrent of abuse for really no reason

I do more miles than most of you ****

happily slow down to walking pace, say: hello, there, I’m just behind you…..four times, until they take notice then scatter in panic,

I've seen that a lot and never quite understood it. They'll suddenly realise you're there and start screaming "bike! bike! BIIIIIKEE!!!" like you're an inbound surface-to-surface missile, practically hurling each other into hedgerows when you're dribbling along at "any slower and I'll fall over" pace.

Okay so TJ not saying anything justifies abuse. Kay. What if he was deaf? Or just one of those foreign ones? I mean, it's whataboutery but could you imagine the outcry?

But more importantly what's a "roadman"? Is that the trackie wearing workie with a manky hi-viz and rigger boots you would see in the Goose of an evening?

Glad to see schemie is awright, good to know. I remember the last time the phrase "scheme goblin" was used someone nearly had a fit 😂

Same on the likes of the Kelvin Walkway. Give and take by everyone.

Give abuse and take your bike? Don't stop near Lennoxtown...

I don't think thats how the post was meant - that the abuse was justified but that my silence might have triggered it.  Perhaps so in hindsight but I think they were spoiling for a fight anyway.  I sort of get the posters point - I am not sure I agree in this specific case but its a valid point in general

Reflection on why incidents occur is no bad thing

Used to do a fair bit of trail riding in Guildford. That you would encounter an entitled middle class dog walker or irascible geriatric rambler who would go out of their way to get in your way was priced in to every ride.

Rarely experience such things up here in Manny..

Guildford is the most middle class place win the country is it not? Which would corroborate tj’s hypothesis.

It does nothing of the sort. Remember his sample is 2.

We don't even know what middle class is.

Guildford is not some sort of social outlier. There are very under privileged parts of Surrey, including near Guildford. Yes it's quite wealthy overall but many towns are, somewhere has to be the wealthiest but that doesn't mean it's suddenly becomes some sort of social micro climate.

The idea of correlating class and levels of rudeness sounds ridiculous to me. It sounds like unconscious bias at best. And reverse snobbery at worst.

It does nothing of the sort. Remember his sample is 2.

No - I describe two incidents that follow a pattern of a dozen or more over a decade or two

Over the years the rudest folk I have encountered have nearly all been middle class folk

BTW - I am as middle class as they come

The idea of correlating class and levels of rudeness sounds ridiculous to me.

LOL!

Yep, there have also been times when ‘you’re supposed to have a bell’ has been the accusation, but I can counter that with ‘I know but I find them very impersonal, I’d much rather just call out ‘good morning’ ‘

Noted, for future use 🙂

BTW – I am as middle class as they come

Probably explains why you come across as so arsey a lot of the time. 😆 🤣 😂

🙂

Maybe its a defining characteristic of the middle classes 🙂

Over the years the rudest folk I have encountered have nearly all been middle class folk

I ride the same paths you do. Over the years I have been punched, spat at, had a bottle dropped on me (missed), been chased after by a group of youths who subsequently beat the shit out of someone, had people deliberately jump at me, had people refusing to make space to allow me to pass etc as well as a more general failure to share the space gracefully. I may be stereotyping here, but in all but the last case I’m pretty sure they were working class people. When it comes to the last one I’ve not noticed any particular class predominating.

No – I describe two incidents that follow a pattern of a dozen or more over a decade or two

Over the years the rudest folk I have encountered have nearly all been middle class folk

BTW – I am as middle class as they come

Fair enough. Sounds more like confirmation bias.

You still haven't defined middle class either. What is it?

I live in Colinton (south-west Edinburgh) which is about as middle class as you get. We did have an incident of knife crime last year, but that was at a dinner party where one of our neighbours was spotted holding his knife like a pen).

I ride mostly up in the Pentlands, just behind the village, and have to say that 99% of the folk I meet (mostly middle class I suspect) walkers, runners, horse riders etc are extremely polite and friendly.

Fair enough. Sounds more like confirmation bias.

How do you know? Unless you know for a fact that TJ was brought up to believe that middle-class wallahs are ruder and have a misplaced sense of entitlement, as opposed to finding out for himself, you aren't really in a position to say that.

You still haven’t defined middle class either.

For someone who apparently doesn't know what middle-class means you sound surprisingly touchy.

I ride mostly up in the Pentlands, just behind the village, and have to say that 99% of the folk I meet (mostly middle class I suspect) walkers, runners, horse riders etc are extremely polite and friendly.

@kennyp, is that the case on the Water of Leith? The WoL through Colinton Dells and out to Currie is the absolute worst place in town for entitled dicks filling the path and, if they have a dog, letting it tear about under your wheels. I bought the bell I use with that stretch of path specifically in mind. Meanwhile, in the much more awkward bits through Slateford and Longstone it's fine.

Up the Pentlands is fine.

I'm also with TJ in not thanking people who don't actually do anything. Why would you?

Yep, there have also been times when ‘you’re supposed to have a bell’ has been the accusation, but I can counter that with ‘I know but I find them very impersonal, I’d much rather just call out ‘good morning’ ‘

Noted, for future use 🙂

You can also point out that it hasnt been a requirement to have one since 1999 - and that you prefer to use a cheery "good morning"

@munrobiker yes I ride that bit quite often. It's a handy and sheltered way of getting out to Balerno easily when the westerly wind is blowing (getting lazy in my old age) then coming back over the hills with a tailwind. The actual Dell itself I tend to walk more than bike.

Yes there are certainly more people, and some do block the path a bit, but they don't tend (to me at least) to come across as entitled. They sometimes block the narrower bits of path when chatting to each other two or three abreast, but I probably do too when out walking with friends. I've never had any problem getting them to move and almost always get a smile or "Nice day for it" as I go past.

As for thanking people who haven't done anything, I don't tend to either but do tend to smile and say "Hi" as I go past.

Part of this is maybe me being slower and more laid back as I get older, not sure.

The one exception I remember. Old bloke on the Lymphoy Rd (just after the first lockdown) shouted at me for not having a bell, and how I could have infected him. I stopped, politely pointed out I'd called out but he didn't hear me, and that I passed him at a distance of about six feet, and was "near" him for about a fraction of a second. I also pointed out he was failing to see the irony of complaining about the risk of infection while shouting into my face. Very much the exception though. And I found it quite funny.

I had an incident with 3 entitled "morningside matrons"a few years back on the WOL.  i was leading a group on a very narrow section.  came up behind the 3 who were oblivious to our presence - probably because I did not get particularly close to them.  I followed them for a minute or two at a slow walking pace then when we got to a wider bit politely asked " excuse me - can we squeeze past please?" ( too close to them for the bell)

Immediate mouthful of abuse from one of them. I stopped, waved the guys I was leading thru and asked her " I slowed to walking pace, waited until we were off the narrow bit, asked politely if we could get past.  What else do you want me to do?"  the mouthy one went radge ( 😉 ) shouting at me but her pals were embarrassed and pulled her away.

Thats the sort of situation I find with these middle class folk.  That there is just nothing you can do to appease them.

Think about that though.

One of them kicked off. The rest were embarrassed and telling her to cool it. You've literally just described a minority.

One of them kicked off. The rest were embarrassed and telling her to cool it. You’ve literally just described a minority.

Yep, and with the conclusion drawn a good example of confirmation bias.

You’ve literally just described a minority.

I don't think TJ ever claimed that it was a "majority" of middle-class walkers?

 the mouthy one went radge ( 😉 ) shouting at me but her pals were embarrassed and pulled her away

Not condoning her behaviour, but we have no idea what is going on in other people's lives when we see them acting irrationally. She could be suffering from severe anxiety, depression or other mental illness be recently bereaved etc. etc.  It is at least as likely is it not, that some shit in her personal life was the cause of her outburst and poor behaviour, rather than being 'middle class' or from a particular part of Edinburgh?

Of course its not a majority.  Its one in thousands!

Jeepers guys - just a observation that I wondered if anyone else had noticed

How do you know? Unless you know for a fact that TJ was brought up to believe that middle-class wallahs are ruder and have a misplaced sense of entitlement, as opposed to finding out for himself, you aren’t really in a position to say that.

I say what it sounds like to me if that's OK with you, and it sounds like confirmation bias. I could be wrong though I agree but subsequent posting points towards this IMO.

You sound extremely touchy though.