OK, not quite. But this is alarming (assuming they don't U-turn).
https://twitter.com/CitizenCard/status/1579770363109838848
Voters will need photo-ID to vote in May 23 local/Mayoral elections and at the next General Election. If you don't have a passport or photo-driving licence you can get a free Voter ID at http://citizencard.com using code FREEVOTERID.
Pretty much any photo ID will work so you don't need an additional one if you have say a photo driving licence. But surely we should be making it easier to vote, not erecting barriers?
But surely we should be making it easier to vote, not erecting barriers?
Silly boy. Well to do upstanding old citizens already have ID. Whats's your problem?
😉
Its gerrymandering effectively. the Tories know that there is a much higher % of labour voters than tory voters without photo ID. Its all about voter suppression and nothing to do with electoral security
^ that
Its all about voter suppression and nothing to do with electoral security
Especially when you look at what is permitted as id.
They arent quite as bent as the US republicans but they are trying to catch up.
Its gerrymandering effectively. the Tories know that there is a much higher % of labour voters than tory voters without photo ID. Its all about voter suppression and nothing to do with electoral security
+1
What is the claimed justification for this? It can't be to combat electoral fraud because even the electoral commision acknowledge that it is almost non existent. It really does smack of disenfranchising sections of the community more likely to vote labour
"In 2018, there was no evidence of large-scale electoral fraud.
Of the 266 cases that were investigated by the police, one led to a conviction, and two suspects accepted police cautions.
In 2017, there was one conviction and eight suspects accepted police cautions".
What is the claimed justification for this?
Its because people* are frightened about electoral fraud and so this will restore faith in the system.
* by people its meant daily hate readers who have been fed a diet of communist lefty liberals are ferrying illegal immigrants over and providing them a list of names to pretend to be at the polling stations.
Of course what might actually restore faith in democracy is, ohhhh i dunno, an investigation into what a coincidence it is donors to political parties get peerages especially when many of them stop donating shortly afterwards. They could start just with the one job role of tory treasurer
Its gerrymandering effectively. the Tories know that there is a much higher % of labour voters than tory voters without photo ID. Its all about voter suppression and nothing to do with electoral security
+2
And, it's 'oh look an otter' distraction from the huge manipulation of the electoral system from the top.
It would work if we already had a compulsory national photo id card but that's what foreigners do so we won't be doing that.
It will disenfranchise some old voters - my mum had no photo id in her last years as she could no longer drive and couldn't renew her passport as she was born overseas and didn't have a birth certificate in an acceptable format (didn't stop her being in the army, being a social worker or paying tax the whole of her life over 18 but that's hostile environment for you).
The trade off of losing a very small number of older voters to get rid of more younger and minority voters is acceptable to this government for the reasons stated above.
I'd say we go full Australian and make voter registration voting compulsory. If you want to protest, write something rude on the ballot paper.
It's not gerrymandering, gerrymandering is manipulating constituency boundaries for electoral benefit.
Agreed beargrease. Its voter suppression. sloppy language. We do of course have gerrymandering as well.
the justification trotted out is that its to eliminate voter fraud but as everyone knows thats bogus. But also we know what a corrupt lying bunch the tories are
Yah, gerrymandering has a specific meaning, this is targeted voter suppression, not the same
Its all about voter suppression and nothing to do with electoral security
Absolutely this. It's embarrassingly obvious too.
It would work if we already had a compulsory national photo id card but that’s what foreigners do so we won’t be doing that.
Ah that's next, a national photo id card to prove you aren't nasty illegal furriners invading everything, that you have to show at the doctors/hospitals/ job centre/toilets/weatherspoons and er voting.
Can someone educate me...what would be wrong with a national id card?
Can someone educate me…what would be wrong with a national id card?
Define what is meant by card eg just a bit of paper/plastic or multiple associated databases?
When will we be expected to carry it?
Yeah I see your point kind of. To me, a dumb card would be fine...like a driver's license, you don't have to carry it, just be able to produce it within a timescale. More than that...maybe not
Of course what might actually restore faith in democracy is, ohhhh i dunno, an investigation into what a coincidence it is donors to political parties get peerages especially when many of them stop donating shortly afterwards. They could start just with the one job role of tory treasurer
Oh but that would just be like that Russian report.
They don't need faith in democracy,it benefits them more if people don't bother to vote 🙂
The Blair government spent quite a lot of time and money attempting to set up a national id card. I did some work on it in the mid noughties. The thing they could never figure out was how to make sure that the person you were issuing the card to was actually who they said they were. There were other issues too, but it was canned by Cameron as an expensive solution to a problem we didn't really have which would in itself have created a whole new set of issues and opportunities for fraud.
Can someone educate me…what would be wrong with a national id card?
It would be a major change in the basis of UK law. Huge civil liberties implications. I am sure it would be used as a tool to further profile and disadvantage non white UK citizens. Ie older white male like me not carrying my ID card - sent on my way. Young north african not carrying one - in loads of trouble
You already have this to some extent in England where for example you can be asked to prove your entitlement to services and you need to prove residence rights before you can rent. Nice middle class white folk don't get asked. Others do
you don’t have to carry it, just be able to produce it within a timescale
Which then begs the question what is that gaining? Aside from you getting hassled by the cops when I say "yeah I am Twodogs but I forgot my id. Can I drop by the station next week?"
Yeah I see your point kind of. To me, a dumb card would be fine…like a driver’s license, you don’t have to carry it, just be able to produce it within a timescale. More than that…maybe not
I think it's mostly a "tip of the iceberg" argument. Today you have to have a card, tomorrow you're expected to carry it at all times, next week you're going to jail if you don't have your papers citizen. Granted, "slippery slope" is a logical fallacy, but in this case I wouldn't put anything past them.
And as dissonance said, we're also into the realms of a mandatory national database. The government has previous form here in mass surveillance and Big Data power grab attempts in the supposed name of "security."
So how does postal voting work?
So how does postal voting work?
It's not required for postal voting. It mentions this later in the Twitter thread.
Which, really, creates more questions.
It would be a major change in the basis of UK law. Huge civil liberties implications
You see, that's just regurgitating what is always said but I don't understand what it actually means? I'm genuinely interested, as other European countries seem to have them (I think) and I don't think their citizens seem more oppressed than us.
I'm really not trolling....
Was it Kinnoch who suggested this? He needs to eff off and join the tory party. Even Cooper who is a "centerist" ie right winger shot the idea down quickly
Twodogs - its about the relationship between the people and the state. I'm pushing my legal knowledge but it reverses the position on citizenship and rights ie from the state having to prove you are not who you claim to be and you are not entitled to things to you having to prove you are
As above this has already been sneaked in in England for some stuff
My main concern tho is on a privacy / civil liberties basis and it being used as another tool to harrass non white folk and mission creep
I agree its hard to make the anti arguement tho
Especially as one of the few areas there is concern about voter fraud is Asian conservative voting communities doing so by post or proxy voting. And even that has minimal impact on national voting outcomes (although it's bad for those disenfranchised but that's a much bigger issue).
Personally I don't see a major problem with an ID card, anyone who's had to prove who their in the benefits system knows how difficult that is so it's not like the status quo is a panacea.
I’m really not trolling….
Essentially to make it worth the investment it needs to be invasive. You need to be able to tie together all those government dbs to properly identify someone and you need to be able to insist that the card is carried at all times.
You need to get the biometrics in to make sure it cant be counterfeited (plus to id you if you are out on a ride without it) which then means you can plug it into all the cctv.
tl:dr to be useful it needs to fail the "what if someone malevolent gets into power" test and if not then whats the return on investment?
I don't know what the solution is but I worked as a poll clerk and have had a few people in who don't appear to be who they claim but as long as they state the right details, I have no challenge. Often it's appears to be young parents sending teens because they can't be bothered to leave the house.
I guess it's their choice to delegate but it still doesn't feel right. On the flip side, I've also had people come and ask me how they should vote...
I worked as a poll clerk and have had a few people in who don’t appear to be who they claim
Do you get many duplicates? "Dave Smith from 42 High Street? According to our record you voted this morning."
You already have this to some extent in England where for example you can be asked to prove your entitlement to services and you need to prove residence rights before you can rent. Nice middle class white folk don’t get asked. Others do
not entirely sure this is just an englishire thing TJ but perhaps you can enlighten? AFAIK all employers in UK are obliged to verify the right to work of anyone they take on for instance?
Some of the provisions do not apply in Scotland. For example the need to check ID before renting someone a house. The right to work one does apply in Scotland
basically when these laws were enacted if they were for devolved areas then they don't apply in Scotland as holyrood refused to pass equivalent laws. A lot of it was around the "hostile environment" and holyrood refused to go along
there is some stuff around entitlement to healthcare that is different as well
But I am not clear on the details
Do you get many duplicates? “Dave Smith from 42 High Street? According to our record you voted this morning.”
Can't say I have had that which suggests that the system works to some extent but the purist in me would like to check that the person in front of me is who they should be, regardless of their views.
Biggest gripes tend to be people who haven't succeeded in registering or who go to the wrong polling station without realising.
Aside from the civil liberties and security questions, from a purely technical standpoint could you actually imagine how much cheaper and convenient it would be if all those databases were aggregated and merged?
NHS - flagged not fit to drive, DVLA informed. Likewise flagged fit to drive, DVLA likewise notified.
NHS No. = DVLA No. = Passport No. = NI No. = FAC No. = Travel Pass No. = Library Card No.
I mean, I realise it's pure fantasy and our record on IT projects is shockingly bad but how handy would that be? One ID, cradle to grave.
Twodogs
Full MemberCan someone educate me…what would be wrong with a national id card?
Nothing much except the expense. Til the second you start using it. The card isn't the problem- it's the fact that you inevitably end up with people being harassed, being turned away from services they're entitled to use because they don't have the right rectangle.
To answer the OP though, this is bad, very bad.
what would be wrong with a national id card?
I'd (see what I did there?) rather carry one than have the frankly insane levels of CCTV and surveillance that we have already in place. I've read stats (I've no idea if they're accurate) that suggest the UK has 20% of the worlds cameras, and that there's 1 camera for every 11 people...
Almost every school kid in Scotland has an id card. In a lot of schools the youngscot card is what makes the school cashless. It also gets free bus travel and acts as proof of age.
We're closer than you think to id cards.
Can someone educate me…what would be wrong with a national id card?
Two words "software implementation". Our governments of whatever hue are unable to get an IT project in on time, on budget and (most importantly) fit for purpose.
frankly insane levels of CCTV and surveillance
Given that the effective CCTV is privately run for shopping centres and other enterprises, we can legislate this away. The council run schemes are ineffective if they are staffed at all due to funding cut-backs.
There is sufficient law in place to ensure that we would not need cameras, we just don't fund the enforcement agencies well enough to allow the laws to function effectively.
NHS No. = DVLA No. = Passport No. = NI No. = FAC No. = Travel Pass No. = Library Card No.
That’s pretty much how it works here in Spain where ID cards are compulsory.
Almost every school kid in Scotland has an id card. In a lot of schools the youngscot card is what makes the school cashless. It also gets free bus travel and acts as proof of age.
We’re closer than you think to id cards.
This is true, and I hadn't noticed how much mine use it.
I'm not a fan of national ID cards.
I'm also of the view that we've got NI no., UTI no., NHS no., then optional Passport No., driver licence no., council tax no., etc etc. As I understand it, places like Denmark are 'one account' for much of thier dealings with Government and this makes like simpler, fewer data stores to manage etc. I could get on board with that - but I suspect any merging of data would take decades, £billions and a few rich IT people when thier scheme fails...
There’s no point having ID cards if you don’t have to carry them all the time. There’s no point making you carry one unless the cops have the right to stop you to check that you are.
How much will the subsequent “ war on ID card fraud cost”?
Even thatcher was against I’d cards as they were “too German”.