[Closed] My son was involved in a minor bike accident is he liable?

Tell him to swivel to grow a pair and stop picking on kids.

Is the letter from a Legal Representative?

If NOT then tell him to 'do-one' 😀 would be my approach.

In simple terms he fell off, it doesn't sound like your boys ran into him so he's got no grounds.

Cheeky Bugger 🙄

10 years old is the age of criminal responsibility. Not sure about liability though.

Any independent witnesses?

150[b] Euros[/b]

A clue to where you are and what legal jurisdiction you are under might help.

10 years old is the age of criminal responsibility

In England and Wales maybe, but we don't tend to use euros...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_of_infancy

My two were quite shocked and the guy was shouting at them demanding they give him their home address which they did as they were quite scared.

Nice guy.

[i]Any independent witnesses?[/i]

None as far as I know.

[i]Is the letter from a Legal Representative?[/i]
No, it's from the chap himself and I haven't seen it yet as still at work.

Sounds like he was going too fast and/or didn't anticipate the potential hazard that is 2 children on bikes?

File under bin

I doubt anyone who does that is going to listen to reason so just react to whatever they do when you have to

I assume the absence of witnesses or what they say may be important

Yeah sorry I am in Germany but I can't imagine the laws will be completely different to the UK what it being in the EU and all that.

I concur. Tell him tae" away an get yerself huntit! "

Write back to him saying "I have no idea what you on about I don't have any kids" Or "I'm sorry my kids weren't there that day, do you have any witnesses to who this was?"

Probably best just to ignore him.

@crashtestmonkey.

Interesting link but my son hasn't actually done anything criminal. I am not even sure if the laws of the road apply being this is a forest track supposedly blocked off for cars apart from deliveries to the club house.

Does the letter include the guy's address? If it does I know where I'd be heading [/hunts for bombers]

alternatively...

he was minding his own business, having a nice ride - when two kids suddenly ran across his path, being a reasonable person he managed not to hit the kids but as a consequence crashed off his bike and ruined his riding clothes and was a bit upset, therefore lost his temper and demanded their addresses

if it was me - i'd still ignore the 150 euro demand but have a proper word with the lads any other witnesses about what actually happened

the link was in response to scotchegg's post, and emphasising the differences in national laws which prompted my question.

Some discussion of vaguely similar incidents (child on cycle involved in accident) in the UK here

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/accident-car-driver-wants-to-take-my-bike-for-analysis

Roter Stern - Member
Yeah sorry I am in Germany but I can't imagine the laws will be completely different to the UK what it being in the EU and all that.

This will give you some idea of the situation in England and Wales: http://www.inbrief.co.uk/child-law/child-accidents-compensation-liability.htm

go round to his house, make him watch you burn 150 euros, then tell him to go **** himself, and tell him if he ever shouts at your kids again you'll cut his tongue out.

That should do it.

What a joke. I'm sorry but this is ridiculous. It was a simple accident, no-one is liable. It's a risk of riding about on a bike. Sometimes you fall off and tear your clothes. Reply to him telling him you've had a word with your son but that's as far as this will go.

If he wants to take it legal then you engage a lawyer who I'm sure will echo similar sentiments. Medical treatment could mean 'a plaster'.

I am with warton on this. Go round and kick him up the shitzenholen.

What chunkpaul said. From what's been said, I'd agree there's not much chance of comeback for the bloke given no witnesses but we've only heard one side of the story from a secondhand source...still pitchforks seemed to have been unsheathed 🙄

The only thing that would concern me is the kids willingness to give out their address to strangers. The bloke in question is clearly a tool and as above needs to grow some bollox, stop picking/shouting on kids etc etc!

Guten Abend Red star

What warton said.

Ask him for proof that his brakes work. Also ask him to provide evidence that he has 20/20 vision.

I spent the best part of 13 years in Germany and remember hearing a story about a car crash where the person whose fault it should of been asked for the person hit to provide proof of 20/20. It turns out they should of been wearing glasses whilst driving. Positive outcome for the ' at fault ' driver.

Where abouts are you in Germany?

shouting at the kids is not on, but the guy might have been a bit shocked.

Check with some of your German colleagues to see what they think of the story and the legal position of any claim as they do things differently in foreign parts, but the bit where you wrote:

I have tried to get an account of what happened from my two but it's all a bit vague and from my side

made me wonder if your kids are being somewhat vague - I know as a kid and adult, when you are being vague it is when you know you are bang to rights if you give a full and accurate description. It might be that I have the wrong end of the stick ( I'd rather that I did ), but it is something to keep in mind.

Total legal minefield and that without different countries

where they negligent?

assuming they have no assets does that make you liable?

can he prove that your kids are were at fault?

I think the last one is the key. I can't see how he can prove anything. Your kids are too dazed to remember and he is the only witness

At 9 and 11 kids are prone to doing stupid things on bikes in the woods. It's part of being a kid. This is why we don't let them drive cars or fly planes.

If you're out caning it around in the woods and you encounter a 9 year old on a bike doing something unpredictable then your actions list should involve having your own independent accident to avoid hurting the child, and making sure the kid knows that things are ok but he should not be doing backflips/mimicking danny macaskill/pissing whilst riding*.

At this point you should MTFU and get on with your life. If someone wrote to me demanding money because my kid caused them to fall off their bike, I would be on their doorstep ensuring that if they ever come within 500 meters of my children again, the Lord himself will need a telescope to help them find their testicles.

If you're on terrain a kid can ride, then ride it as if there is a kid riding around the next corner on one wheel.

Write back to him saying "I have no idea what you on about I don't have any kids" Or "I'm sorry my kids weren't there that day, do you have any witnesses to who this was?"

This, without doubt.

"Tell him to swivel" lol

Maybe give your boys a talk about giving their address to people who aren't able to handle a bike.

"Dear German thank you for identifying yourself my children made me aware that a strange man rode at them lost control of his bike and then scared them by shouting at them . They were absolutely terrified by your behavior and remain in shock . My wife and I have been caused considerable distress and inconvenience in dealing with this . I believe that we are entitled to 500 euros compensation from you . Please contact me with details of you insurers or your proposals for payment. "
No idea if this is truly valid in Germany it is not in England but may make him do one.

I would be inclined to speak to him and suggest that behaving in a way that scared the kids was not appropriate and since there is some doubt about how the accident occurred you will not be offering anything for his alleged losses.

I saw this behaviour in a cinema a while back. A young lad spilled some of a builders bucket coke belonging to a generously proportioned middle aged man who was so unpleasant he left the boy visibly shaken and tearful. Despite remonstrations from those surrounding the scene.

Having said that if I knew one of my boys had trashed something through carelessness I would be looking to make some recompense if they were not an ass about it.

My daughter went over the top of a car bonnet as it was pulling out of a pub in our village and they were getting very nasty, in the end we spoke to our household insurance and they sorted the whole lot out and told them where to go!

Not sure about Germany but it may be worth checking your insurance for some assistance.

Are you sure he was shouting? He might have just been speaking like a normal German.

Loads of macho here ! Dont underestimate the self rigorous. Depending on local laws he could cause you plenty of trouble. Write back in a polite and formal manner clearly stating that after talking to your children, you do not accept liability for his damages or injuries. Be firm but polite, you live in the real world not internet warrior land.

@tymbian. I live in Leipzig.

@crankboy. LOL. Might be worth a punt. 🙂

By saying that we don't have any children with that name or they weren't there; knowing Germans they will soon try and get the police involved.

I have just read the letter and in it he is insisting it was my older son who was at fault. He also wrote that he admitted himself to the local A&E for treatment for a cut knee and arm and torn tendons in his thumb which he is covered for by his health insurance. It seems that he has already been shopping for his shirt and trousers and has sent us a copy of the receipt!

I could send it all to my solicitor here but he's a bit court happy sometimes which means he gets to line his pockets with our money. I'd like to use him as a last resort.

Lol that's up there with the knob head who tried to sue me when I was 8 after he had knocked me off my bike!! It actually went to a court type thing! Some people are bloody idiots.

I wouldnt hand over any money. A polite letter back saying thanks but no thanks. I would certainly check with some local friends to see what they think too.

Get the police involved (edit: once you've checked with your insurance company).

There are laws to say that other road users have to take special care around children up to fourteen [url= http://www.verkehrslexikon.de/Module/Schutz_von_Kindern_und_aelteren_Menschen.php ]link[/url]. If the guy were in a motor vehicle it would be impossible for him to make a claim against a child up to ten, on a bike I don't know but I bet it's the same [url= http://www.verkehrslexikon.de/Module/Schutz_von_Kindern_und_aelteren_Menschen.php ]link[/url]. /p>

Terrorising your kids and forcing an adresse out of them is illegal as far as I can make out from German legal forums.

You'll have third party insurance somewhere. Contact you insurers and ask them to take the guy to the cleaners for you. They'll no doubt advise better than me too.

[I]Yeah sorry I am in Germany but I can't imagine the laws will be completely different to the UK what it being in the EU and all that. [/I]

Why would you assume the laws in one country wouldn't be different? Also check age of liability.

Anyway, when we lived in Germany we were advised to get 3rd party insurance covering all the family - the example used was what if your son kicked a ball through a neighbours window.

I'd (politely) call him up for a chat.

I was on the receiving end of this a couple of years ago. I was doing about 25mph down a hill when a kid (about 10 years old) who was pushing a bike up the hill just stepped off of the pavement into my path.

Luckily for him his bike was between the two of us, I went flying. Smashed my helmet, ripped my shorts and bag, slid a decent distance. I cut my finger tips (oddly) and had a massive bruise on my hip bone.

I had a bit of a pop at the kid (no swearing) mainly because I could have been a car and could have killed him. After a lesson on road safety we went our separate ways.

Demand his bike and clothes so you can send them away for analysis.

"I would be on their doorstep ensuring that if they ever come within 500 meters of my children again, the Lord himself will need a telescope to help them find their testicles."

Classic Internet tough guy!

DP

"I would be on their doorstep ensuring that if they ever come within 500 meters of my children again, the Lord himself will need a telescope to help them find their testicles."

I'd just say;

"They are kids and you, the adult, didn't stop in the distance you could see to be clear. Why are you expecting them to accept responsibility?"

I broke my wrist on the Bristol to Bath cyclepath in 1990 when some random kid decided to do a u-turn as I went past him. Clearly his fault but I wasn't going to make threats to him or write to his parents about it.

Could you involve the police, saying a strange man forced your children to give them his address, and you now fear for their safety?

I was about to reverse out of a spot one afternoon and noticed and elderly gent walking behind so moved nowhere, waited for him to pass and started my manoeuvre, the old guy jumped on the floor like he'd been shot, he said I scared him!!!??? unluckily for me he was with his family who said that they would report me to the police saying I drove into the man then drove off, If I didn't agree to a new pair of troos! some people are just dickheads.

If it had been the OP's dog that jumped out, would all the answers be the same?

If the dog had bitten the cyclist no . If the dog was in a place where one would expect it to be on a lead no if the dog had chased and "worried" the cyclist no. If the dog had just jumped out or come upon the cyclist and surprised him yes.

He couldn't stop in the distance he could see so was riding too fast for the conditions. Ask him when he last had an eye test.

In all seriousness, I think I'd be referring him to the case of Arkell vs Pressdram.

I think Samuri's post hits the nail on the head.

do they have the same Injury-Lawyers-Where-Theres-Blame-Theres-a-Claim-4-U culture in Germany? Maybe that's his game... pillock.
Accidents happen, get over it. We didn't win 2 world wars to put up with this sort of behaviour. (etc.)

Germany is totally different from the UK in this regard. Over here, we'd be shocked that someone would be doing this and tell them where they can shove it.
In Germany, you have to have personal insurance which means that people sue for absolutely everything. Stand on someones toe on the train and you might get a letter claiming for damaged shoes and broken nails. Pretty standard practice, the idea being you pass this on to your insurance and they pay out - no hard feelings and nothing personal etc.

(I'd still be in a mind to tell him to shove it, he lost control and fell off.)

Write back to him saying that your kids told you he'd stopped his bike normally, exposed himself to them and then ridden off and that if you don't stop harrassing them, they'll be going to the police.

I would speak to him to get his address.
He sounds like an Arschloch.
Then go go the police claiming he's a kiddy fiddler.
Get him locked up for a couple of weeks.
End of claim.

He couldn't stop in the distance he could see so was riding too fast for the conditions

You could jump into the road and claim this for example

Would I be expected to go at 2 mph past every driveway in case they drove out and if I dont it is my fault?

If this was true everytime someone hit someone it would be their fault

Odd how the kids managed to remain upright. If he couldn't stop safely, he was either riding too fast, beyond his ability or with his eyes closed.

Would I be expected to go at 2 mph past every driveway in case they drove out and if I dont it is my fault?

You'd be expected to ride / drive at an appropriate speed for the conditions. If you're unable to stop in time for someone pulling out of a driveway when you're in excess of 2mph, I'd suggest you take the bus.

Classic Internet tough guy!

You'd be expected to ride / drive at an appropriate speed for the conditions.

I'd ignore it. Tempting to get stuck into the guy but at the end of the day he's taken a fall for your kids, so he deserves a little slack maybe.

But i'd also be making sure the kids are more careful and avoid causing any more crashes- ride in front of a cyclist and get away with it, fine, next time maybe they get hurt or the other person gets hurt worse.

Oh and yes not to give out their details to people!

Odd how the kids managed to remain upright.

If he couldn't stop safely, he was either riding too fast, beyond his ability or with his eyes closed.

If you're unable to stop in time for someone pulling out of a driveway when you're in excess of 2mph, I'd suggest you take the bus.

TBH who was at fault here we dont really know but blanket statements like if you cannot stop it was your fault are silly.

I would have to go at walking speed past every pedestrian in case they jumped into the road ....I would not want to be not able to stop now would I and it would always be my fault no matter what happens 😕

It's just weird that STWers are all indignant and outraged when a Daily Mail columnist suggests that cycling isn't real commuting and a risky extreme sports offroad activity, and that cycling is perfectly normal, yet suddenly when it's a child's face involved, no-one thinks it's the parents' responsibility to cough up for the damage their kids have caused.

What makes this different from kids kicking a ball through a window? No-one's really interested in moral blame, but at the end of the day why should the guy on the bike who was JRA on his way home have to fork out for the loss that the OP's kids caused? (Apart from, perhaps, he's a bit of a douche for yelling at little kids).

They pulled out slowly from a side road into his path and he had to avoid them and they had to do nothing. That is why the stayed upright.

So he couldn't avoid [i]slow-moving[/i] children without falling off? That's even worse, good gods what sort of speed must he have been doing?

I suggest you avail your self of the rules of the highway and give way in particular.

Yes yes. But if someone does pull out on you, you don't just go "well, I have right of way" and righteously smash into the back of them, or have a duck fit and throw your car into the nearest wall in a panic, do you.

I would have to go at walking speed past every pedestrian in case they jumped into the road

You could try looking where you're going and anticipating hazards instead. Generally, pedestrians don't spontaneously teleport five feet to the right, in my experience.

If visibility is reduced - trucks, high walls next to the road - then you might well have to travel at walking pace. But generally, paying attention and driving / riding appropriately for the conditions should be sufficient. It's worked for me for twenty-odd years, people pull out in front of me practically daily and I've thus far managed to avoid colliding into them.

no-one thinks it's the parents' responsibility to cough up for the damage their kids have caused.

From the limited information available, it would seem the kids didn't cause anything. "it seems to me knowing where it happened it's quite and open patch of track with plenty of notice to see if someone is coming"

Google Map link perhaps, OP?

Totally with Junkyard on this - I can't decide if you're trolling Cougar, or just not really thinking it through.

You could try looking where you're going and anticipating hazards instead. Generally, pedestrians don't spontaneously teleport five feet to the right, in my experience.

It's not about teleporting - I reckon I could jump 3 foot from the pavement into the path of a car in about 1 second. If a car is doing 20mph, it's covering 30ft/second - if I chose to jump when that car was 5 feet away, you have a fraction of a second to react and stop.

Does that mean that cars doing 20mph are being reckless!?

It's not about teleporting - I reckon I could jump 3 foot from the pavement into the path of a car in about 1 second. If a car is doing 20mph, it's covering 30ft/second - if I chose to jump when that car was 5 feet away, you have a fraction of a second to react and stop.

I reckon I could jump 3 foot from the pavement into the path of a car in about 1 second.

Is that something you're prone to doing?

I could probably swerve if I couldn't brake sufficiently. But sure, if you're going to deliberately go out of your way to create an unnatural situation in order to throw yourself under my wheels then there's probably not a lot I could do.

That said; in your example, if I was travelling 30ft/sec and you can jump three feet from the kerb in about a second when I'm five feet away, I'll be 25 feet farther down the road past you by the time you get there.

Anyway, all this is academic. I'm not saying it's always black and white; just that in most cases there's plenty you can do to minimise the risk without requiring a bloke with a red flag to walk in front of you. Read the OP again; it's an open patch of track with good visibility, and the guy was so shocked by the sudden presence of two kids exiting a football ground that he lost control of his bike. What other circumstances could cause this other than he was going recklessly fast through a junction and / or not paying attention? Even if we assume that the kids should have given way and failed to do so, that's something you should readily be able to anticipate. If I see kids or animals on a trail I cover the brakes or scrub speed and adjust my weight ready to take evasive action because I know they're bloody unpredictable.

So he couldn't avoid slow-moving children without falling off? That's even worse, good gods what sort of speed must he have been doing?

Yes yes. But if someone does pull out on you, you don't just go "well, I have right of way" and righteously smash into the back of them, or have a duck fit and throw your car into the nearest wall in a panic, do you.

You could try looking where you're going and anticipating hazards instead. Generally, pedestrians don't spontaneously teleport five feet to the right, in my experience.

But generally, paying attention and driving / riding appropriately for the conditions should be sufficient. It's worked for me for twenty-odd years, people pull out in front of me practically daily and I've thus far managed to avoid colliding into them.

suddenly jumping five feet sideways in front of a car might be ok for Danny Mac, but I don't see your average 11yo doing it.

Are you all really claiming that you drive at such a speed and with such control it would be impossible for someone to pull out on you and hit you and even if they did it was your fault?
I doubt you are trolling but you are wrong and the law is clear about this

[i]In Germany, you have to have personal insurance which means that people sue for absolutely everything[/i]

Unless the law has changed since we lived there, you don't have to.

And tbh I'd go and take some photos/measurements of where it happened - since if you run into the back of someone/car it's your fault, so here too?

Anyway your argument was that he should always have to stop and it is still not correct hence we have GIVE WAY

No you swerve to avoid them and crash in the process

if they did jump that distance it would be your fault for not anticipating etc which is a very poor argument still
...
And if i pull out in front of you at say a roundabout where i should stop and give way its your fault

You seem to have invented something you think I've said or meant in order to argue against it. If someone pulls out on you and there's a collision then they're at fault for not giving way, of course. However, that doesn't mean you couldn't have done something to minimise that risk or avoid it completely. Observation, anticipation, appropriate speed.

I narrowally avoided an unbraked cyclist last week who shot out in front of me from a side street without looking or giving way.

Are you all really claiming that you drive at such a speed and with such control it would be impossible for someone to pull out on you and hit you

Impossible? No. I'd say it's reasonably unlikely though.

Not really following your thoughts anymore you started off with and now we are at

He couldn't stop in the distance he could see so was riding too fast for the conditions

it's not always possible but I like to have escape routes.

Is it your fault still when you dont have an escape route

Basically you seemed to suggest it was his fault though you now seem to accept there can be times when it is not "his " fault as he had no escape route.
The roundabout /giveways and others were only examples of someone [ you may have even seen] doing the unexpected to highlight it is not always your fault if there is a crash. Not saying they are identical to this

Impossible? No. I'd say it's reasonably unlikely though.

Aye fair point it would be possibel but it is never going to happen

It could be either at fault to be fair perhaps he was tearing down a road for a strava KOM or perhaps he was doing 10 mph on gravel my only point is that is not necessarily always his fault which is what you originally suggested. Discussing other hypotheticals seems to have just confused this further

 

If you haven't already settled this/told him to swivel.

I he has gone out and bought clothing all ready i would suggest he has been a little hasty if he thinks your paying for them. If you do decide to replace them insist on the old clothes in exchange for a like for like product that you have purchased for him,this way you can find the best deal,and make sure he'snot trying to con you out of some rapha for his aldi special.