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No, I ride my bike most of the time, and find your attitude a bit concerning. Sorry for the jibe but it makes me pretty angry that you're saying that when a cyclist gets run over for doing nothing more than using a road they're legally entitled to ride on, it's somehow their fault.
Get off your high horse Anthony (for once). He didn't say it was the cyclists fault at all. He said that driving along country lanes could be dangerous at whatever speed the motorist is doing.
I find your attitude a bit concerning, but thats got nothing to do with this thread.
and edit/ back on topic: my thoughts and prayers are with the family at this time. rip.
I have to say I wouldn't ride on the A1 at anytime for any price. This incident explains my reasons better than I ever could.
At 8am in the morning on a sunday id guess that the A1 is quieter than the commute runs most people on here do every day.
Ive had the oppertunity of doing a T-T on a fast/busy dual carridgeway before but the reason i didnt was because i was new to it all and didnt have the confidence in my bike handling while trying to put on a good effort.
There are races like this (on roads like this) going on all the time, get out of bed early (and i mean early, many start around 6am!) and youll see plenty of riders out.
The key point which everyone seems to be missing is IT WAS 8.30am ON A SUNDAY, therefore considerably quieter than many of you have experienced that road.
And as for the 'wouldnt ride on an 80mph road' lot, there are plenty of quiet roads ive ridden on where you often get people do 80+.
Condolances to the family,
Rich.
I seriously cannot belive Boardin Bobs comments. If you're going round a blind corner and you can't stop in time for whatever is round the corner [b]you are going too fast[/b]. Could be a tractor could be a broken down car could be a family out for a walk, you've no idea and if you hit them you have no one to blame but yourself. In geetees example yes if the cyclist had hit him (while geetee himself had time to stop) cyclist would have been to blame (from limited info given)
Terrible tragedy. There is still no reason for the TTs not to run on dual carriageways tho aslong as they comply with the law - and if all drivers did the same TT would be prefectly safe sport.
It's so much easier riding in the woods. No cars, no highway rules, no fumes, no noise, no risk of being mown down by motor vehicles. Numpty is too fat and lazy to venture more than a few yards from his car, so it's bliss.
Just peace and quiet, nature's beauty and fresh air. A much safer, more enjoyable place. One that I would rather spend my free time in.
Only an abundance of thick mud drives me onto the roads (which is when we cyclist and other users do the most damage to the trails).
Get off your high horse Anthony (for once). He didn't say it was the cyclists fault at all. He said that driving along country lanes could be dangerous at whatever speed the motorist is doing.
Not the way I read it. There seems to be an attitude that if you ride your bike in certain places you're deliberately putting yourself at risk and deserve all you get. I don't want to let that sentiment go unchallenged, neither do other people here, and I couldn't care less if you think that's OT.
Spongebob, do you not have to ride on the road to get to these woods?
related to Boardin bobs comment about speeds and mixing traffic. I don't know how many people know the A417, it is the main link from Gloucester to Swindon. most is Dual Carriageway. but not all. The horrifying section for me is the Air ballon climb whilst driving in a car, limit is 60, you come round a virtually blind corner and often find yourself closing on the back end of an artic doing less than 20mph.
Should we ban lorries from steep hills as well?
End of the day it is education and common sense. something that is sadly lacking on all sides.
I would guess using big roads for time trials is intended to help motorists by giving them plenty of overtaking space and a lot of visability for both motorist and cyclist, aside from the technical needs of the cyclists.
Also realistically, you cant send a mass of cyclists round 1 car wide, low visability, pot holed country lanes at 25mph plus. It would be more of a death trap than the main roads are.
Spongebob, do you not have to ride on the road to get to these woods?
No! I ride in the cracks in the pavement.
Good man. 😀
If you want to do something positive in response to this issue, then the best thing we can do is raise the public's awareness of the issue of cycling and safety.
My brother told me that on the time trail forums, people are already arranging to wear black arm bands on Sunday March 10th for any race they may be entered into. This has been warmly received by the family of the man that was killed:
[url= http://www.timetriallingforum.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=32264 ]Black Arm Bands[/url]
[url= http://www.timetriallingforum.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=32172 ]Thread about Gareth Evans[/url]
Perhaps it's something that the STW community can also do to try and generate debate about the issue. If everyone that went out to the north downs did so wearing a black arm band then I'm pretty sure there would be enough questions down at Peaslake Local Stores from locals etc, to get word around and start people talking and thinking. Similarly at Derwent Resevoir visitor centre or Cwmcarn visitor centre.
We are all part of the same community after all.
The horrifying section for me is the Air ballon climb whilst driving in a car, limit is 60, you come round a virtually blind corner and often find yourself closing on the back end of an artic doing less than 20mph.Should we ban lorries from steep hills as well?
No, as DONK and everyone said, you shouldnt be driving at a speed where you cant safely stop. Would you drive at 70mph on a motorway in thick fog? its the same thing afterall...
Perhaps it's something that the STW community can also do to try and generate debate about the issue. If everyone that went out to the north downs did so wearing a black arm band then I'm pretty sure there would be enough questions down at Peaslake Local Stores from locals etc, to get word around and start people talking and thinking. Similarly at Derwent Resevoir visitor centre or Cwmcarn visitor centre.
Sorry, I think it'll have absolutely no effect. I reckon that until a popular celebrity is killed while out cycling, no one will ever care about us - or at least not until we hit a critical mass of people cycling that people out cycling aren't seen as 'cyclists' but just normal people in the same way that people driving cars aren't thought of as different to the main population.
Would you drive at 70mph on a motorway in thick fog?
Unfortunatly if my experiance is anything to go by, when visability is reduced people seem to drive closer with out slowing.
My condolances go out to the family.
Someones died - perhaps not the best time to finger point and discuss blame?My thoughts are with his family.
I completely agree.
Last year a friend of mine was killed on the roads, someone put a link up here and said I hope it was no-one from here. I replied saying it was my friend and still the usuall retarded numpties decided to start arguing about whether people should ride on this road or that road etc... now is not the time. Someone has died and a lot of people will be hurting and some of them might read this thread. Think about what you say.
anagallis_arvensis - I completely agree, no need for argument here, just think about it, about the guys family and about your own safety.
Not nice when anyone dies prematurely, especially with a young family. The initial reaction from many on boards like this is anger towards the driver and cars in general. I am different in some respects as I really enjoy driving and cycling, it is easy to focus anger on the driver but clearly they will be having a terrible time and would not have deliberately caused something as tragic as this.
It looks as though the format for the TT needs a rethink to reflect changing traffic patterns. If any legacy from this could lead to a better way to manage the format with less risk it would at least mean a lesson had been learnt.
I was not aware TT stuff took place on open public roads like this, it does seem dangerous to me given the commitment and speeds TT guys reach, mixed with live traffic.
anagallis_arvensis - MemberSomeones died - perhaps not the best time to finger point and discuss blame?
My thoughts are with his family.
I completely agree.
Last year a friend of mine was killed on the roads, someone put a link up here and said I hope it was no-one from here. I replied saying it was my friend and still the usuall retarded numpties decided to start arguing about whether people should ride on this road or that road etc... now is not the time. Someone has died and a lot of people will be hurting and some of them might read this thread. Think about what you say.
Maybe not blame but this should and has sparked a discussion. Lessons should be learnt and actions taken otherwise it will just continue to happen.
It looks as though the format for the TT needs a rethink to reflect changing traffic patterns.
They have, all events have to be presented to the local police and council (i think, might be highways). There are scores of hoops to jump through before an event can go ahead, including signs on the roadside/sliproads to warn drivers of cyclists on the road (even tho cyclists could be legally on the road at any time).
I was not aware TT stuff took place on open public roads like this
Thats becuase youve never been up at 7am on a Sunday. Why do you think they (are now forced) to race at this time of the day?
it does seem dangerous to me given the commitment and speeds TT guys reach, mixed with live traffic.
Have you seen some of the standards driving/cycling at rush-hour, that is dangerous!
What a terrible thing to have happened. Condolences to the family.
STATO, a danger in threads like this is assumptions: I stated my ignorance of a fact related to this - you stated you knew why I was ignorant and you are wrong. Three children and my Sunday homage to Peaslake means I am never NOT up at 07:00 on a Sunday and have seen many roadies on the drive to Peaslake.
If we start making these jumps from statements of fact to what seems like an emotional assertion, I think we lose the integrity required to put forward different ideas that can avoid such incidents in the future.
I travel public transport to the City every day, the standards of cyclists I see are usually terrible in terms of highway code standards - far worse than most drivers I witness.
As a TTer on a fast duel carriageway (A31) I find it very sad that it takes a death before people start to realise the way drivers behave around racing cyclists.
Duel carriageways may be fast roads but are the safest to TT on, the cars get a lane and a half to overtake. Yet people continuously drive like idiots. Shutting the road is not a practical idea, we have 3 TT's a week on the A31 during the summer months.
Drivers simply need to drive safer around bikes and concentrate on what they are doing. I really feel for this guys family and hope it is the last fatality, but until drivers sort themselves out I feel it won't be.
I think it'll have absolutely no effect.
You could be right, but I think anything that raises a bit of awareness has got to be a good thing. It isn't like TTers are doing some semi-legal thrillseeking activity like jumping off cliffs or breaking into electricity substations, but look at some of the comments on here...
Second bit of bad news i have heard today.
I was sent a link to another cyclist dying today 🙁
Be carefull everyone, especially those sitting on their high horses.
Time trials are run on open roads. Many are deliberately run on fast roads because it makes for fast times. The fastest riders on such courses will probably be taking advantage of the traffic to break the air for them and will therefore be deliberately close to passing vehicles.
The risks of this activity quite simply cannot be wholly eliminated. They are (presumably) regarded as manageable and/or worth running by those who take part.
No-one deserves to be hit by a careless driver, but it has to be accepted that some drivers make errors, and when they do people sometimes get hit. It seems to me fairly remarkable that so few do get hit, and very heartening that most people take the risks soberly and without being put off by them.
No issues re where the ride was or when, other than stated above that it would not be my personal preference.
However, surely the real issue here is the sad loss of a fellow cyclist, and the fact that in all liklihood the penalty for the driver will in no way reflect the seriousness of the crime. (Think Rhyll Cycling Club 4).
This incident sounds to me a wee bit like the Dunwich Dynamo where the fella was killed in 2007. Anyone who was there would know that there was no way that any driver on that road could have been unaware of cyclists, yet the driver on the DD came round a corner and managed to take 3 over the bonnet. To the best of my knowledge no charges were ever raised. (Interesting to compare those two incidents to the witch hunt for the fella on a mountain bike last year who knocked down and killed the pedestrian, Lynch mob or what?)
Best legacy for all these people would be to campaign for justice for cyclists.
Duplicate deleted 🙄
Sad for the riders family, and the club who organised the race on the public highway, lets just hope they have legal cover, to pursue or defend the rider, but cyclists do get killed, 3 in the last 3 weeks, 2 hit and runs, and luckily they got the drivers, sorry but any sort of time trial should be BANNED on any open public road, due to possible lack of skill and or training of cyclists and motorists.
I hope your brother has made a ful statement to the Police and is willing to go to court and say what he saw, as hopefully all the other cyclists that saw something.
The Tour of Britain is on next month and look at the marshalls and police involved, and still idiots drive into the cyclists as was seen a few years ago.
If you want to race ,buy and race a mountain bike, on private land, with ample first aid and safety built into the design of the course which is usually one way and controlled.
Project, why should cyclists get penalised because drivers can't drive properly?
Alwyn, im a road and mountain biker, and a car and van driver, i respect other road users, i dont race, i dont drive erratically, i look where im going, sadly some roadies dont have the ability to do either, as its a race, the fastest one wins, so youre likely to take chances, and motorists will also take chances overtakeing you, and this causes accidents.Resulting in the death or injury of the cyclist, sadly.
@ alwyn because you can't prevent some accidents. if you could stop accidents then great but you can't so instead adopt a defensive policy.
It is great that the little community of bicyclists has people such as project in it, standing up for our interests. 🙄
The vast majority of road races and time trials on open public roads go off without the slightest incident. Sometimes riders get a bit carried away. Sometimes drivers are a bit careless. Things happen.
Amazingly, things also happen in mountain bike races. Slippery crossover bridge at Malvern anyone?
It actually doesn't matter that the rider was on a TT, he was occupying the same space on the road that any other cyclist would use. I have ridden up the A1 when on a tour to get through part of the country quicker.
Drivers should drive at a speed where they can stop for the unexpected. Cyclists have a right to use that road, therefore drivers should drive in the anticipation that there may be one over the crest of that hill or round that blind corner.
Hope she goes to jail.
I regularly see them doing TTs on the A19 around Crathorne it's easy enough to see them most times but on a couple of occasions I'm seen them out in very poor visibility where I believe the organisers should have stopped it
I also used to see them on the A66 near Darlington they used to turnaround & head back on a very busy roundabout where I've seen a few near misses.
I thought the roundabout was particularly dangerous as a lot of the riders were reluctant to stop for traffic coming from the right & seemed to take some very risky chances.
If the woman drives like GeeTee described it could have happened to anyone: a normal cyclist, pedestrian, other car, moped or motorbike.
You cannot blame this on the fact it was a TT, most TT riders I ride with are very conscious of cars and most car drivers are good. But there are by far more idiot drivers than TTers when I race, probably because they know they won't be injured if the hit a bike.
Banning TTs is a stupid idea; it makes drivers think they own the road and no other form of transport deserves to use it. It will also kill the sport, I have to drive miles to my nearest closed track.
Education of drivers and tougher penalties for people driving like idiots is the only way to make roads safer for cyclists.
I grew up a few miles from the A1 in Lincolnshire and to cross it at the point nearest my house you had to ride 2-300 yards up the hard shoulder. There is now a bridge over the A1 nearby, but to get to it you have to ride along a 3-mile section of NSL road where drivers regularly hit 70mph. For all that, it's a brilliant part of the world to go road cycling in with miles of quiet lanes through nice countryside. It's possibly the crappest place on earth to go mountain biking.
In one sense it would be safer to stay indoors and become a drain on the NHS, but I'm glad there are people who don't feel this way.
Yesteday morning I came up to a cycle race near where I live at Bedford. Well organised, plenty of marshalls and well signed. I was approaching from the oposite direction, was met by an advance motorbike then several cars with hazards on before the peleton went past. I slowed right down, moved right over to my side kerb. The car behind went ballistic, flashed his lights and gesturting me to "get on with it".
I'm sorry but some people just live in there own selfish bubble and just dont care about other people. Very sad.....rip...
I'm all for racing on the road, done it lots over the years, but I seem to recall that Time Trials have a worse safety record than other forms of cycle sport?
Anyone have any sensible statistics to prove or disprove this?
I know that the use of dragstrip courses is questioned even by those in the sport, and that the whole idea of racing on such roads brings the question of the speeds achieved into some question.
In addition, the way that UK riders tend to do great times in the UK then get humiliated abroad on traffic free courses would lead me to view the UK scene with a pinch of salt.
Let me make it quite clear before the usual STW responses occur; I think we should be able to compete on the road.
I think cycle sport should occur on the public highway.
I'm just a bit sceptical when problems occur in Time Trials on 60-70mph dual carriageways.
It's a tragedy, and sounds to be directly related to the error of the driver involved, but if I'm right about TTs on dragstrips, maybe it's time to take TTs away from this sort of course and look again at the way competitions are run?
I seem to recall that this same debate crops up every few years; I'd really like not to be doing it again 😥
terrydactyl - was there any need to slow down and move over? Surely the cyclists were going the other way on the other side of the road?
Interestingly, no other form of sport that I can think of occurs on the road without express permission of the police etc. I'm not sure roads are the place for sporting events without road closure - roads are a means to an end, a way to get from one place to another. You're not allowed to race cars on the roads (even within legal speed limits), you're not allowed to run on the road without good reason - why do we assume you can hold a cycling competition without considering its effects on other road users?
I do wonder about the mentality of people on the internet sometimes 😕
why do we assume you can hold a cycling competition without considering its effects on other road users?
Because they pass the ever more rigerous rules/qualifications, and there are plenty other races (non cycling) that are held on non-closed courses. Do you want to ban running races on footpaths/bridleways/fells (there are runs on roads aswell) and swimming races in the lakes/the sea? afteral, you might be putting the public at risk there too.
Coffeeking, to all intents and purposes you do have to get the police's permission. The CTT website has a 70-page safety guide on it. If you just decide to hold a time trial without getting permission you can be prosecuted for wilful obstruction of a highway, you'll void your insurance, and so on.
Like I say, I've done one TT and from a safety point of view it wasn't watertight. But then neither is MTB racing, or riding. It cost buttons to enter and was pretty fun. And it's worth bearing in mind that time trials are popular in the Uk because historically you couldn't race on the road. If they were banned I'm sure that something else would just spring up to take their place.
Because they pass the ever more rigerous rules/qualifications, and there are plenty other races (non cycling) that are held on non-closed courses. Do you want to ban running races on footpaths/bridleways/fells (there are runs on roads aswell) and swimming races in the lakes/the sea? afteral, you might be putting the public at risk there too.
I dont mind them myself, theres a fair few around where I used to live. You cant really say TT cyclists are/would be any more rigerously ruled/skilled than any other racer if it were allowed to go ahead - if drag races down the dual carriageways were organised events without road closures you still wouldnt think they were a good idea.
I just dont think you can compare running on footpaths/fells to road cycle racing on open public roads, the differences are too many and too great.
I know we're all cyclists here and a large percentage cant accept that cars might have a place on the road with them, just the same as plenty of car drivers think cyclists shouldnt be on the road with them, but it doesnt make either one right. The question is why should you assume a race has the right to be on OPEN public roads when it clearly inconveniences other users and endangers the participants, surely it'd be better to close the roads (even though it would mean disruption and be impossible on certain roads) unless they riders accept the inherent risks?
The question is why should you assume a race has the right to be on OPEN public roads when it clearly inconveniences other users
well as i get up earlier enough i've seen a few time trials from a drivers point of view and don't really understand how it causes inconvenience other than i might stop fiddling with the radio or drinking coffee
remember they are time trials and not group races to minimise inconvenience to important road users
It is illegal to race on a public highway. That is I believe why they hold Time Trials and not "races" as it is a way of getting around the legislation. I'm not sure how they deal with it in respect of things like the Tour stages, but as I recall it used to require an act of parliament to change that fact. Anyone expert in this field and able to update me on this point?
Jesus wept, even for STW there is an amazing amount of uninformed nonsense on this thread.
The right to hold Time Trials is enshrined in law - the MoT regulations of 1960 to be precise. As such no permission is required from the police to hold one, they just need to be notified in advance. In addition every time trial course has a rigorous risk assessment performed that identifies likely risks and how they are going to be mitigated (here are some examples from my area [url= http://www.manchesterctt.org.uk/risks.html ]http://www.manchesterctt.org.uk/risks.html[/url]).
Unlike most people commenting here I have actually ridden the course where Sunday's tragedy occurred; it was no more or less dangerous than my everyday commute to work IMHO.
It really saddens me that the reaction of fellow cyclists to this tragedy is to question the right of us all to use the public highway, rather than the behaviour of motorists putting us at risk.