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gonzy,
For the sake of clarity please don't use the word "Islamophobia", it conflates people and ideas, and it doesn't help.
Not to be a maajid nawaz fanboy (i am 🙂
There is no such thing as "Islamophobia".
No idea should be immune from scrutiny.
There is such a thing as anti-Muslim hate.
No people should be beneath dignity
Maajid Nawaz
I agree with you about the fact that some people here go beyond the idea and start criticising and blaming all muslims, and that is wrong.
But we are allowed to criticise Islam.
The freedom to do that is sadly what brought us here.
The necessity of doing that will probably have us discussing this again in the future.
And
digga - Member
He makes the trite but nonetheless factual comment that when guns are illegal (for non-military/police), only outlaws carry them.
Myth #10: We don't need more gun laws—we just need to enforce the ones we have.
Fact-check: Weak laws and loopholes backed by the gun lobby make it easier to get guns illegally.
• Around 40% of all legal gun sales involve private sellers and don't require background checks. 40% of prison inmates who used guns in their crimes got them this way.
• An investigation found 62% of online gun sellers were willing to sell to buyers who said they couldn't pass a background check.
• 20% of licensed California gun dealers agreed to sell handguns to researchers posing as illegal "straw" buyers.
• The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives did not have a permanent director for 7 years, due to an NRA-backed requirement that the Senate approve nominees.
Not the EDF but Tommy Robinson eat the pudding. Wouldn't trust either of them.
To be against multi-culturalism does not make one Islamophobic.
a bit of a contradiction that statement dont you think? especially when in many cases culture and religion are so deeply intertwined...
if you so anti-multiculturalist how would you respond if say i moved to your neighbourhood? i see myself as british born and bred but i am of asian heritage and am a muslim...if you dont object to my integration into your society on religious grounds then it must be on the grounds of my heritage...which would make you a bit of a xenophobe....racist at worst.
Why, for example, did the West continue its policy of multi-culturalism after 9/11? It makes no sense.
what was it supposed to do? declare war on all the non-westerners and non-christians? maybe they should have all been rounded up and stuck in prison camps for their own safety or kicked out of western civilisation
As to Trump's view - I'm sure our society would benefit from having cases like [url= http://www.cbsnews.com/news/police-boy-2-accidentally-kills-woman-in-idaho-wal-mart/ ]this[/url]
poor kid
especially when in many cases culture and religion are so deeply intertwined...
They need to be un-intertwined.
a bit of a contradiction that statement dont you think? especially when in many cases culture and religion are so deeply intertwined...
This is the nub of the issue.
Britain has a long history of removing ecumenical/religious authority from the state - starting with Martin Luther, via Henry VIII, and continuing through Cromwell (to be fair he also hanged the left wing communist diggers) and onwards.
How to fit religion in with western culture.
Gonzy I am very happy for you or indeed anyone else of any other faith or background, to integrate into British Society and to do so whilst respecting your beliefs and traditions. The issue is where people reject the very foundations of modern Western civilisation and take it upon themselves to act to to incite others to do so.
but i'm glad the mods have kept it open as it encourages debate and it allows the likes of jambalaya et al to spout their usual bollocks...
Interesting thing is gonzy I am "spouting" government policy, of the UK, of the US and of most of Europe too. The words quoted on Al Monitor ring very true.
We now have a second instance of a terrorist returning from the Middle East choosing to murder Jews, first at the museum in Belgium and now at the super market in Paris. Mix this in with the murder of journalists for drawing cartoons.
JY you might as well post a picture of Gordon Brown as he'd have done just the same as Blair with respect to the Middle East.
Correct.badnewz - Member
To be against multi-culturalism does not make one Islamophobic.
Here is a good critique:
Agreed, I am not pro-gun. As I already said, expecting joe public to successfully multitask as judge, jury and executioner is beyond stupid.Lifer - Member
And...
Of a table of 9 countries.Interestingly, so do Americans and the USA is, let's see...in the bottom three...
Gonzy as you are back and you've said you've read through the thread you'll see I posted that this summer you saw the admission first from the Hamas leader in Turkey and then the head of the whole organization in Qatar that Hamas operatives (released from jail under a prisoner exchange by Israel) kidnapped and murdered the three teenagers. Add that to 6 months of rocket attacks on Israel from Jan to June 2014 and you have the deliberate provcation of a response from Israel
Abu Hamza receives his sentencing later today in New York
But we are allowed to criticise Islam.
The freedom to do that is sadly what brought us here.
The necessity of doing that will probably have us discussing this again in the future.
i agree with you but its one thing to criticise and another to ridicule/insult a religion and its followers
i feel we're in a vicious circle here...the actions that have led to this discussion are unacceptable and so are some of the attitudes that have come to the forefront from the resulting debate on here
In a free society, nobody has some divine right not to be offended.
I can't think of anything, other than politics, that is more deserving of ridiculing than religion. You can't have one group of people decreeing that that is now off limits. Which is what they're trying to do
Gonzy you are creating a worrying false equivalence with your statement - also ridicule is absolutely acceptable in our civilisation.
Not sure how you can conflate the actions of these nutjobs with the views on multiculturalism mentioned here either. Unbelievable equivocation.
are you saying pisstaking of religion is/should not be allowed?i agree with you but its one thing to criticise and another to ridicule/insult a religion and its followers
While obviously people being personally bullied harrassed on the web (and elsewhere) is a growing problem, the criticism and satirising of a concept/idea is freedom of speech and should not have limitation placed on it.
i've not spotted that post of yours jambalaya....which page is it on?
also ridicule is absolutely acceptable in our civilisation.
Absolutely. It's part of the British culture.
What an idiot he never makes sense
IGMC
you can be as critical as you want of any religion and its followers...criticism leads to re-evaluating the ideology behind the religion and will hopefully create better understanding
but when pisstaking turns to downright insulting then i feel that a boundary has been crossed...when its tongue-in-cheek it can be tolerated though but when its done with a hint of malice then it doesnt sit well for me.
but when pisstaking turns to downright insulting then i feel that a boundary has been crossed
Still doesn't justify murder. Drawing your own cartoon back would probably be appropriate.
Fair enough, there is a difference between a joke and an insult but Charlie Hebdo never crossed this line.
who draws the line?but when pisstaking turns to downright insulting then i feel that a boundary has been crossed
Still doesn't justify murder. Drawing your own cartoon back would probably be appropriate.
i never said it did
In a free society, nobody has some divine right not to be offended.
Strange how its always worded like that rather than an explanation of why it s ok to be rude and insulting to folk
FWIW no society is free than anything goes.
What about Johnathon Ross and Brand did they have the right to do that to Sachs and he had no right to not expect to be offended by them?
Bit less noble there and really it all depends.
I dont think religion is off limits but personally i am able to criticise all religions without the need for pictures.
Its about balance and .......nuance
If you're so insecure that you can't tolerate your beliefs being insulted then its you who has the problem, not the society which allows those insults through its belief in the right to free speech
I find it absolutely incomprehensible that anyone can try and defend any position other than that!
"He makes the trite but nonetheless factual comment that when guns are illegal (for non-military/police), only outlaws carry them."
Well 3 people at the scene did have guns and the training to defend themselves from the terrorists and I am sorry to say it did not do them or any one else any good .
but when pisstaking turns to downright insulting then i feel that a boundary has been crossed.
& at that point it is ok to shoot people?
People insult religion becasue they perceive it to be a malevolent force in society. Or at least certain aspects of it are. This being one of them. Feel free to believe what you like, people who don't believe in your particular deity are free to criticize, including with malice.
Wouldn't it be better to allow your omnipotent deity to take whatever steps it deems necessary?
I am not sure why folk confuse freedom of speech and the freedom to insult
Fair enough, there is a difference between a joke and an insult but Charlie Hebdo never crossed this line.
but they knew it was a touchy subject...this became apparent when the death threats were issued against the Danish magazine for doing the same...they must have sensed that this was the case hence why they had police protection...nevertheless the actions of Charlie Hebdo did not warrant what those 2 evil men did when they murdered those 12 people
I am not sure why folk confuse freedom of speech and the freedom to insult
Its fairly simple. Insults are part of that 'freedom of speech'.
You can call me a **** for believing that. I'm a grown up. I can take it
David Cameron should sue, then...
but they knew it was a touchy subject...this became apparent when the death threats were issued against the Danish magazine for doing the same
Yeah... theres a word for that. Its called intimidation. And thats where you cross the line as far as freedom of speech is concerned. Ironic isn't it?
gonzy,
i agree with you but its one thing to criticise and another to ridicule/insult a religion and its followersi feel we're in a vicious circle here...the actions that have led to this discussion are unacceptable and so are some of the attitudes that have come to the forefront from the resulting debate on here
I agree that some people have gone too far. Going beyond criticism of an idea into making offensive assumptions about groups of people is where some people go wrong.
But you have to accept that fair criticism can be taken by some people as ridicule or insult.
In my view ridiculous beliefs need to be able to be ridiculed.
Virgin births, flying horses, the whole shebang is ridiculous. I feel quite alright saying that any religious person (of any creed) who looks critically at their own beliefs should chuck the whole lot.
But you have to be able to separate the idea from the people.
I have to run so I can't source this quote I read recently:
"People are sacred not ideas"
That covers how I feel about it.
but they knew it was a touchy subject
That's the point though isn't it Gozny?
It shouldn't be. Charlie Hebdo, like most people know that this "no images of the prophet" is just daft, which is what the entire "je suis charlie" thing is about.
If you are not a muslim yes it is daft f you are a muslim it is Haram
Either way one group imposes on another
Personally I am able to criticise Islam without drawing a picture of the prophet
One of those someone is going to be pissed off whatever happens
My line in the sand would be not criticising Islam where as not drawing the prophet is to just show them some basic respect
What if the insults become bullying ?
Is it still ok and freedom of speech?
Its irrelevant as there are limits to our free speech we are better off discussing where we draw the line rather than if the line is drawn.
I dont think anyone has the right to just wander around insulting folk
I dont think what ross and brand did was about free speech it was cruel and bullying
YMMV
Hostage takers holding at least six people at a Paris kosher supermarket are demanding freedom for the cornered brothers suspected of the Charlie Hebdo massacre.
That's just not nice.
Didn't the brothers say they wanted to be martyrs?
Israel have offered support. France could do with some serious Mossad action right now.
Maybe future opportunities for Mossad franchises on mainland Europe...
Its irrelevant as there are limits to our free speech we are better off discussing where we draw the line rather than if the line is drawn.
I'd rather not have the line drawn by violent religious fanatics and fascists thanks. We have a justice system, and laws, which clearly defines when the line has been crossed
I dont think anyone has the right to just wander around insulting folk
Yes they do. You do. I do. We all do. It may not be nice. You don't have to like it. But it is a right. One we all share. Thats the price you pay for a truly free society I'm afraid.
should the hostage situation really be played out live on TV?
getting a little close to victim blaming there. Backing down when threatened may be better for your health but it also means the biggest bastard gets their own way, something I like to think our society has grown out of (although admittedly it's now the person with the most expensive lawyer that gets their way). Comments of "well they were warned*" really aren't helpful at a time like this.but they knew it was a touchy subject
*when what they were doing was perfectly legal
I agree we are best no thaving fascist draw the line
I think we can be free without the right to wander round insulting folk
Why not give it a go and let me know how well it works for you? I am sure all the recipients from your boss to the police to the people in the street will respect your right to do so and nothing at all will happen to you.
its not an inevitable price though it is inevitable that some things in a free society will offend me.
What happened to be excellent to each other?
Quite possibly the most misleading title for a video ever
Video of the French security services breaking the siege at Dammartin:
Couldn't help but laugh 😆
How much bullying at work do I have to put up with before I get all jihadi?