In terms of risk assessments I'd say this was a safer outcome than other potentialities, the driver stopped the traffic, had the cyclists ignored him and carried on they would be in a more dangerous place in front of the car, had they ignored him and stopped behind the car they are again in danger and it is very obvious that the driver was perfectly able to escalate on his own, and did to the point of stopping to give them a piece of his mind..for nothing other than hold him up I could add.
When someone is flaring there are times when you have to act to stop it, I'd agree with tj so far as the cyclists claim to being expert at de-escalation..this was not an expert bit of de-escalation, but had it been many others this would have led to the driver being dragged out of the car and given a serious kicking...and that was the position he put himself in.
I don't think it is fair that the cyclists should be blamed for not de-escalating the situation, good if the do and admirable but actually held responsible for de-escalating threatening behaviour when challenged aggressively?
Who is blaming the cyclists? I merely pointed out that they made the situation worse with their behavior and their claims of de escalating do not add up, indeed the cyclists action made a violent reaction more likely
Blame is 100% with the driver but that does not mean there is nothing to learn from this and there was nothing the cyclists could have done
Safest place for them is either behind the car or on the other side of the road riding away
Safest place for them is either behind the car or on the other side of the road riding away
I agree with what you are saying in general terms, when I looked at it I thought "stay behind the idiot", I try but don't always do this. But and it's a big but, in a group ride situation had I been at the front I would have gone past as a sudden stop would have caused problems for those behind so I think being critical of that is harsh. Leaning on his car was daft though.
Safest place for them is either behind the car or on the other side of the road riding away
I agree with what you are saying in general terms, when I looked at it I thought "stay behind the idiot", I try but don't always do this. But and it's a big but, in a group ride situation had I been at the front I would have gone past as a sudden stop would have caused problems for those behind so I think being critical of that is harsh. Leaning on his care was daft though.
And I’m with TJ…. The woman stopped in front of a slowly moving car – she wasn’t “run over”.
Shock horror, some drivers are dicks as are some entitled cyclists.
+1
in a group ride situation had I been at the front I would have gone past as a sudden stop would have caused problems for those behind
this is the bit I have real difficulty with. Not being able to do an emergency stop as the riders behind will crash into you. To me that is unsafe and why i will never ride in a close group like that. thats just my opinion tho
I wonder what happened from then on? Amazed it didnt escalate further tbh.
I merely pointed out that they made the situation worse with their behavior
You've no way of knowing what the driver would've done had they behaved differently. Frankly, they were pretty restrained given the circumstances.
Not being able to do an emergency stop as the riders behind will crash into you.
On the roads you're expected to (safely) stop in the distance you can see. You can ride in a group and do that, but if someone overtakes and immediately brakes hard that puts you at risk. I've discussed bike stopping times in another thread - even in ideal braking circumstances a hatchback can stop a lot more quickly than a road bike.
See also: a sports car overtaking an HGV and immediately slamming on the anchors. HGV has no chance of stopping in time. They are not at fault.
TJ you're being a bit belligerent here.
apologies if I appear belligerent. Just frustrated that people cannot see how the actions of the cyclists escalated the situation and that the ride leader claimed to be trying to deescalate when he did everything 100% wrong if he wanted to deescalate
I just do not get this bit tho. A couple of people have said that the cyclists could not stop behind the car because if the front one stopped hard the rear ones would crash into them.
I just do not get riding so closely together that you cannot do a full emergency stop.
I have been hit by cyclists slipsteaming me / riding too close a couple of times. I did not know they were there, braked hard and they ran into me
1) leans over the driver from a greater height
*punch*
Can I just point something out here:
Cyclists are people
Sometimes people get angry or make mistakes
Therefore some cyclists will get angry and make mistakes.
Pointing this out doesn't make anyone 'anti-cyclist' any more than pointing out a person's mistakes makes you anti-person.
A person doesn't get protection from the consequences of their actions just because they happen to choose a mode of transport that you also like.
Every incident should be an opportunity for learning and learning how to avoid getting thumped by road raging nutters seems reasonable to me. Reflective practice
I've found TJ's observations on this thread (and others) to be instructive, and I get where he's coming from as regards practical de-escalation. I don't think it's victim blaming to look at the events from that perspective in this context.
I still wonder at the caution. It's not so much the punching (sadly) since as @Kato said on page 1:
I am in the business and that is the disposal available for a guilty plea common assault with no relevant offending history
...but for me losing control of the vehicle and hitting a stationary cyclist should surely count as "allowing the standard of driving to fall below that of a competent and careful driver" (i.e. driving without due care and attention).
You can say that the camera cyclist would ideally have not been in the path of the car. I would agree. Maybe the cyclist was trying to box the car in or similar, but I don't really read it like that watching the video. The cyclist overtakes the car, moves back left (as would be natural after overtaking), continues for a few seconds and then comes to a halt. The halt appears to be triggered by the shouting and punching going on behind the cyclist. Admittedly everything is a bit confused/fluid because of the weird situation.
Once the bike has stopped, the car rolls for 2-3 seconds, sounds the horn, hits the cyclist, and doesn't even really stop once the cyclists leg's are under the front of the car. The 2-3 second period is plenty of reaction/braking time given the speed of the vehicle, so there's really no excuse for hitting the stationary object, other than "sorry, yerhonour, I was distracted from driving by punching someone repeatedly in the head".
<sarcasm>The driver should have safely stopped the vehicle and *then* got on with the assault for which his caution was an entirely reasonable and proportionate response.</sarcasm>
I am generally with TJ on this.
Both driver and cyclists behaved badly and did not de-escalate things.
The driver however also behaved criminally in punching and lacked due care and attention by rolling over the person in front.
Pretty much agree with the majority/TJ on this, driver was in the wrong but the cyclists didn't help themselves - grabbing the car was a dick-move.
However, Roadies riding in big groups like this annoys me as a driver - would be more considerate if they broke into smaller groups with a space in between to allow cars to overtake.
I ride a couple of 1000 miles a year on the road (mostly on my own) and go out of my way to avoid confrontation, getting into a row is never going to end well.
However i've seen some truly appalling behaviour from Roadie clubs whilst i've been out - riders banging on car roofs, jumping lights, swearing at pedestrians, etc.
Doesn't exactly show cyclists in a good light..
However, Roadies riding in big groups like this annoys me as a driver – would be more considerate if they broke into smaller groups with a space in between to allow cars to overtake.
That can make it worse as you get drivers dashing between each group and needing to overtake many groups of cyclists instead of one. The fact it annoys you that you have to wait behind other roads users for a but is not good though, you should take a look at that.
I just do not get riding so closely together that you cannot do a full emergency stop.
You need an apprenticeship in a road club to understand this.
However i’ve seen some truly appalling behaviour from Roadie clubs whilst i’ve been out – riders banging on car roofs, jumping lights, swearing at pedestrians, etc.
I ride several thousand miles a year. For several years.
I've never seen the first.
I see the second, but not as much as people who like to talk about it like to make out, and almost never dangerously or in a way that impacts anybody.
I've very rarely seen the third. It's nearly always the other way around.
I have seen a group of riders banging on a car roof. Driver had overtaken them just before a road narrowing where oncoming cars had priority. As the road cleared the cyclists were alongside the car and all went by with each one giving the roof a tap.
Looked quite funny although they may not have thought it through as that same car would be passing them again very soon...
I have seen a group of riders banging on a car roof.
I'm not saying it doesn't happen - but stating it as if it happens all the time is... silly.
However, Roadies riding in big groups like this annoys me as a driver – would be more considerate if they broke into smaller groups with a space in between to allow cars to overtake.
*Sometimes* that might help you pass the group faster. Other times it'll just stretch out the time that it takes you to get past as the cyclists will be stretched over a longer distance, and you'll need accordingly more safe overtaking places.
For this kind of group size (looks like around 7 or 8), I think on the whole it would average out to be faster for you for them to stick together.
Its the follow through thats the real problem
If a group of 12 riders splits into 3 group of 4 leaving 1 car space plus safety margin. I can absolutely guarantee a second car will also overtake eithet the rear or middle group
With no room to pull back onto the correct side of the road the following car squeezes in and forces a space, so the cyclists knock bars
This is where it gets really dangerous
Also, if its a smelly deisel vehicle you get to sit in the slipstream of fumes, mot what ypu want
However i’ve seen some truly appalling behaviour from Roadie clubs whilst i’ve been out – riders banging on car roofs
I banged on a car once but the driver was squeezing me into the kerb at the time. I guess I should've just taken my punishment rather than upset the poor dear.
Bother like this (& worse) is why I don't go out on the road with my local club any more.
I've been knocked off twice: Once was 'sorry mate, didn't see you' and the other was when I was being over-taken on a blind bend and the driver decided to run me down rather than have a head on crash.
Every club ride had at least one episode of hassle/ brake checking/ being squeezed into the gutter etc
Cycling & cars are a bad mix in the UK (Haven't seen the same level of aggro in France)
None of my mates has been seriously injured mountain biking; we have a quadriplegic and two permanently disabled road riders in the club though.
Stick to mountain biking.
I punched the side of a van hard enough to leave a dent in it once. The driver pulled out right in front of me forcing me to practically broadside my bike to the floor to avoid crashing into it. He didn't even look left before pulling out because I was watching his face, expecting it to happen. He then stopped at the next set of lights, queue me punching the side of his van. I then went up to the window and he wouldn't even look at me, just sat there staring straight ahead. So I punched the window pretty hard and watched him shudder in the seat, hopefully he wet his pants.
Been knocked off three times by idiots not looking what they're doing, and nearly another one last night as some idiot decided to reverse their vehicle into the middle of road without checking if anything was coming first. I wish my bike was a bus sometimes, that'd give them a surprise.
Another time had a car (Jaguar) drive straight towards me on the wrong side of the road as it accelerated passed a load of parked car on his side. I moved close to the kerb and he just didn't stop, kept coming at me, so I put my right arm out a bit, my elbow still slightly tucked into my side. I knew there was just enough room for me to squeeze through but it was going to be close. Fortunately it was a cold December day and I had thick sealskinz gloves on. The next thing I knew his wing mirror hit my hand and it sailed about 20ft into the air and smashed into smitherines as it hit the ground. The next thing I heard was the unmistakable sound of a car reversing really really fast. But it was too late for him, I was long gone out the end of the road and on to the canal tow path.
Roadies riding in big groups like this annoys me as a driver – would be more considerate if they broke into smaller groups with a space in between to allow cars to overtake.
Say you were to replace those cyclists with X number of cars, say three given approximate length. Would you be angry at that too ? and if those three or so cars were in a line and didnt leave enough room for you to overtake cleanly without forcing your way in, would you be angry at that also.
You sound like an impatient driver. Much like the driver in the clip. Would he have been happier if instead of cyclists taking up three car lengths, it was 3 cars, or a bus or a truck. No, he HAD to get past, and that type of idiot is the type that causes accidents.
One day a car driver is going to get a proper shoeing from a cyclist they have harassed.
There is this belief that you a weedy nerd if you cycle on the uk highways, and are therefore fair game for bullying behaviour. Whether that is using the vehicle as a weapon to intimidate, or as a protective shell from which to dispatch vitriolic abuseUnfortunately most cyclists are well balanced, reasonably educated people so the morons who like to pick on people rarely get what they deserve, which is a shame
And you can bet that if/when this does happen, the cyclist will get far more than a caution.
Motorist punches cyclist: caution
Cyclist punches motorist: be lucky to get away with anything less than assault
this is the bit I have real difficulty with. Not being able to do an emergency stop as the riders behind will crash into you. To me that is unsafe and why i will never ride in a close group like that. thats just my opinion tho
Sorry for the late reply, had an outbreak of work. In that situation, I could stop, if I had to, say a child in the road or something but it would cause problems behind. The situation in the video would on balance of likely outcomes not cause me to do an emergency stop.
I just fail to understand why the advantages of slipstreaming mean you are prepared to reduce your safety margin. OK it does not appear to cause a lot of accidents but it makes me shudder. thats as much my issue as anything else but i will not slipstream another cyclist and only those I know and trust are allowed to slipstream me
In that situation above I would have emergency stopped behind the car.
Basic rule for me - never get in front of a road rager.
I just fail to understand why the advantages of slipstreaming mean you are prepared to reduce your safety margin
It's fun, I enjoy it and in 30 years of doing it I have come to no harm or caused harm to others. In the same time period mountain biking even my strictly wheels on the ground style has caused more than a few significant injuries. Life would be very dull without risk and the risk in group rides is very low, less than solo rides IME.
I just fail to understand why the advantages of slipstreaming mean you are prepared to reduce your safety margin.
Why do people ride mountain bikes down steep hills very close to trees?
Why do people remove the limiters on electric bikes, thus reducing their safety margin?
NOne of those things are putting your safety in the hands of others. thats the differnce
I know I am an outlier on this but there is no way on earth I am allowing any other cyclist to ride that close to me. I had a wheelsucker ride into the back of me when I braked ( I hadn't spotted him)
Several people on this thread have said the cyclists in the video could not have emergency stopped as the cyclists behind would crash into them.
You learn to read the riders in front of you tj as many many roadies have been doing for years and years and years
Several people on this thread have said the cyclists in the video could not have emergency stopped as the cyclists behind would crash into them.
Do they have a crystal ball. Had I been behind in that situation I'd have been rapidly backing out of it to make space. It could have caused a crash, I doubt anyone would be seriously hurt.
I've been on a group ride where a car cut into the middle of a group and caused it to do its auto emergency braking as it was so close to cyclists in front...only one rider went through the back window and luckily he was fine 😜😆
You learn to read the riders in front of you tj as many many roadies have been doing for years and years and years
I get that and as I said its my issue really but as far as I am concerned only one person is responsible for my safety - me. I am not relying on others to ensure I am safe.
Somewhat of a digression tho.Same with motorbikes. I had been watching police riders "formation flying" I tried it with a pal of mine I really trust - I just could not do it. I want my 2 second gap!
Police flying formation. I bet thats a bugger to ride around.
No ones making you do it
So stop now please, ta.
I dont understand quadratic equations but as im not 14 no ones making me do them so i dont shit the bed over it
You know that zwift ad on the telebox
Fast is fun. Thats why. And its faster and funner for longerer if you draft the rider in front.
Being a few inches from disaster also heightens the experience, see also base jumping, IOM TT Etc
