[Closed] More politics - PR and constitutional reform

The problem AIUI is that the people in power with the ability to propose PR are usually the same people who wouldn't be in power if we had PR.

Can you see the Tories or Labour proposing a system whereby they would be denied a majority, probably for ever.

So yes FPTP needs to be scrapped, but i have no idea how it can be made to happen. The only chance was the referendum a few years back which was voted down.

Those in power have the power and will not relinquish the power, and devolve it to the masses, as they will have no power and more importantly to them no income.

to be fair we have a wee window of opportunity at the minute as not much is happening politically

As noted its the fairest but the winners wont be voting for it

Agree current system is terrible. Effectively disenfranchises large swathes of the population.

Another option I've seen mooted is keeping FPTP (or something constituency-based at least) for commons but have a PR elected Lords. I haven't thought through the implications of it but I like the idea of keeping an upper chamber but hate the fact it's not elected.

Any thoughts on if this is a good idea?

PR gives huge swathes of the country essentially no vote. Pros and cons to both systems, I'd rather see FTPT. Personal view only.

Anyway... can we have a politics sub forum now? This will only end up as a duplicate to the other umpteen threads that have the same people arguing the same points that have no real relevance to the OP.

I propose we just lock Junky in a room with ninfan and leave couger to referee. Whoever survives gets to be in charge...my money is on the mod!

Given what the upper chamber is actually for, i.e. A revising chamber, PR won't make a blind bit of difference. Granted it does seem wrong to have an unelected chamber but in reality it actually does a pretty good job.

Your proposal seems very sensible. I can find no obvious flaws. It's doomed.

[quote=anagallis_arvensis ]I propose we just lock Junky in a room with ninfan and leave couger to referee. Whoever survives gets to be in charge...my money is on the mod!

Got any pistols?

Anyway... can we have a politics sub forum now?

Silly. Of course not!

So we end up with a system where a privileged elite of party flunkies get picked for an electoral list, and imposed upon the electorate with absolutely no democratic oversight or ability to reject them?

Get this right, under your system, Nick Clegg and Alex Salmond would both still have jobs today and [s]Nigel Farage[/s] Paul Nuttall would be an MP.

In fact, I'm willing to bet that Portillo would still be one too. Just Imagine how much poorer British politics would be without Portillo moments,

Another option I've seen mooted is keeping FPTP (or something constituency-based at least) for commons but have a PR elected Lords. I haven't thought through the implications of it but I like the idea of keeping an upper chamber but hate the fact it's not elected.

Any thoughts on if this is a good idea?

That's what I'd go for. An elected upper house based on PR.
+ To be an MP or representative for an area you'd need to be born there or a resident for 5 years. No parachuting into safe seats.

How do we get this? Easy - at the next election a non aggression pact between labour, SNP and Liberal democrats on an agreed programme for a short period. there are no insurmountable obstacles to this. Second referendum on Europe, economically there is little between them, constitutional convention as above. They would easily beat the tories

The window of opportunity is there.

nickdavies

It need not be so. The holyrood system you have two votes. One for a constituency msp who is FPTP and the second for a regional list msp who will represent a large group of constituencies. So Msps of both types are tied to an area and regional / local votes do count. At the moment our elections are decided by a few hundred thousand swing votes in 50 or so marginal constituencies. In this system everyones list vote counts. There is a complex formula used to create the proportional effect on the allocation of list seats.

An elected upper house based on PR.

So we would still end up with a list of exactly the same party flunkies and ex politicians that get appointed at the moment?

. An elected upper house based on PR

Therefore the commoners wont be doing this

I understand the Italians use a form of PR; it certainly seems to help them with stable government.
Oh, wait a moment...

ninfan - Member

So we end up with a system where a privileged elite of party flunkies get picked for an electoral list, and imposed upon the electorate with absolutely no democratic oversight or ability to reject them?

There are ways around this but it is an issue. The holyrood system stops the worst of this

ninfan - Member

An elected upper house based on PR.

So we would still end up with a list of exactly the same party flunkies and ex politicians that get appointed at the moment?

I'd agree with you on that one - a second chamber made up from failures from the first is fairly useless - mind you thats what we have now isn't it?

I'm not sure a second chamber is needed at all especially if as in my thoughts its a federal UK with a written constitution

I'd happily have larger constituencies with a number of MPs per constituency voted in by STV. It's horribly complicated but allows constituents to vote for "good constituency MPs", allows cross party voting and gives a path for minority parties to get representation. I may not like UKIP, but I also believe it to be wrong that their showing in the last election gave them essentially no representation in parliament, apart from Carswell, who was a defection anyway.

I think this is far too complicated a system for the UK electorate to understand, but it is probably the purest form of PR. Also, bear in mind we'd probably only be getting the full result from Thursday night roundabout now. 😆

This will only end up as a duplicate to the other umpteen threads that have the same people arguing the same points that have no real relevance to the OP.

I'll close it if it does. Please prod me / report post if it wanders off and we don't notice.

anagallis_arvensis » I propose we just lock Junky in a room with ninfan and leave couger to referee. Whoever survives gets to be in charge...my money is on the mod!

Got any pistols?

Actual 'lol' there, cheers both.

If it ain't broken ... 🙄

Federal system, please no all 4 parts competing against each other and managing to impose slightly different rules to make everything more complex?

An elected upper house on longer terms to the regular Parliament helps avoid both short termism and complacency from its members. With regard to dropping in idiots parties currently have safe seats for that. As demonstrated here in Oz in our last election allowing people to vote in order for all candidates also keeps the local party in check - we had a couple elected ahead of people higher on the list.

DD - you would be suprised.

In scotland we have 4 different electoral systems 3 some form of PR

FPTP for westminster
Additional member for holyrood
Multi member constituencies like you describe for councils and
IIRC regional list for Europe.

Now thats a mess - but people have grasped how it all works and it does work. the pr has changed the scottish political establishment for ever
All systems have their faults but PRs advantages are huge. for example we have greens with significant representation at all levels. No huge landslides on half the vote or less

TJ no that is far from clear.

PR and Coalition politics means that parties like the DUP have undue influence. There isn't a snowballs chance in hell Labour will support PR as they believe they canwin a majority

Finally we had a Referendum on PR (well a "grubby little compromise") and thoroughly rejected it

PR and Coalition politics means that parties like the DUP have undue influence.

doesn't have to be that way. Hasn't been at holyrood and isn't in most places.

There isn't a snowballs chance in hell Labour will support PR as they believe they canwin a majority

A major issue. Needs to be sold on the basis of " no more tory governments ever" cos in the UK it would be a centre left coalition mainly with occasion outbreaks of centre right.

Got any pistols?

PR and Coalition politics means that parties like the DUP have undue influenc

Unlike FPTP where that would never happen 🙄

DUP got 0.9% of the vote and 10 MP's
LD's got ~8% of the vote and 12 MP's

Classic Jamby

Double post