OMG
Not carrying personal id numbers is wrong, as it can lead to difficulty in identifying those coppers what transgress, and break the Law. There needs to be more accountability, on an individual level, and collectively.
So, you'll be fully in favour of carrying an ID card then, I assume?
It's a screwed up world if you can't back-hand a woman anymore FFS !! 🙄
lol rich. i was just curious as i dont know what i would have done. and ive spent the last almost 20 years in the army and now fire service and have had to deal with some right ****s.
not saying she was indeed a right **** either as the footage is too short to form an educated opinion on her really
i was just wondering really as a lot seem quick to try sack the copper , what sort of situations they themselves had been in to decide that they would be able to act properly under stress
ive been shot at, bricked, assulted , glassed , spat at and taunted/abused all whilst doing my job . oddly been shot at twice whilst in the fire service ;-( . ive also taken a batoning (if thats a word from the boys in blue . german police did it as i looked like the person they were looking for (ie short hair and english 😉 and the navy provo as they didnt like marines 😉
but i still couldnt say what id do in that situation as i wasnt there at that point in time. id be fairly sure i wouldnt do what he did but that is purely as it was a woman if it were a bloke then it may be a different story.
its hard to say what anyone in those situations would do unless they are in the thick of it . ive acted badly in some instances when the situation turned. only a few months ago i was ticked off for throwing bricks back at the group who were bricking us whilst we put out a fire but at the time it seemed the thing to too. all i was doing in reality was reloading their weapon ;-(
sorry to ramble but it just astounds me how people can form an instant opinion on things without seeing the whole picture and those that can do it having never been in a situation in any way like it
i'll stop waffling now, and yes he shouldnt have struck her from that little clip 😉 (but if hed have slapped her right to start with he wouldnt have needed the baton
igmc 😉
more excellent (and proportionate) police work @ camp for climate change:
http://london.indymedia.org.uk/videos/993
note the chants of 'this is not a riot'
more on the kettle:
http://london.indymedia.org.uk/videos/1055
Verbal abuse is difficult for a baton wielding armour clad policeman to take...personal traits take over and boom...flashpoint
My post was hypothetical....I don't agree/disagree with what the police officer did...why...because I WASN'T there...
Seems like all the 'pro lets hang the cop' brigade were there....how amazing a coincidence is that??
He then uses reasonable force to move the lady back as shes not obeying a command from a police officer who's looking out for fellow officers.
Did he bollocks! As she was not breaking any Law, she don't have to 'obey' the copper at all. The police are public servants, not the other way around.
CFH; I am not a public servant. Therefore, I have no need to carry ID. Having visible ID would make it easier to identify individual officers, and be beneficial in any legal cases concerning inappropriate use of police powers. And it might make the thugs think twice, if they know they can be easily identified. Not having ID is obstructive to Justice.
[i]I would have arrested her,[/i]
& possibly escalate the situation, its not a easy one to call in the heat of things.
[i]As for identification; I think there should be new legislation, whereby coppers at events like this must carry their id numbers at all times, and those numbers should be highly visible and easily recognisable. Not carrying personal id numbers is wrong, as it can lead to difficulty in identifying those coppers what transgress, and break the Law. There needs to be more accountability, on an individual level, and collectively. [/i]
I agree, I think the police locally were boosted by officers from other forces, so might not have had the same level of training/experience/confidence.
So these officers called from other districts, would they volunteer for this job and if so, I wonder how many saw this as a foreign [anything goes] holiday?
it might make the thugs think twice, if they know they can be easily identified. Not having ID is obstructive to Justice.
So, you'll be fully in favour of carrying an ID card then, I assume? 😉
micki was just wondering really as a lot seem quick to try sack the copper , what sort of situations they themselves had been in to decide that they would be able to act properly under stress
Speaking purely as a civilian, I've been in a not dissimilar situation to that on two occasions. Both occasions I managed to not strike anyone. Perhaps if I had the full backing of "the force" behind me I might have beaten people with impunity.
I've witnessed/been caught in numerous riots so I think I have a fair amount of context to weigh that up against.
I'm not someone charged with upholding Law and Order, as a Public Servant. 😉
Just as well, really.
I'd be like Jack Regan.
'Look, I've not had any sleep, and I'm not in the mood to muck about. Put yer trousers on, yer nicked!'
Mick (firestarter).....excellent excellent post! Was going to state exactly the issues that you raise!
Though Id hardly put what the FS has to deal with in the same vein as the police.....I know dribble stains on your pillow can be traumatising but come on 😆
lol brack im not just refering to the fs experience but also military ones and not saying they are owt like the police have to face , theirs is a thankless task i for one would not want to do
but merely giving examples of situations ive been in and still dont know what i would have done in that particular instance
😉
All the people I know recruited by the police were ex Halfords staff who were thick as $hit power hungry morans/control freaks.
Maybe we should do what the USA & Australia has and actually test people with qualifications such as degress instead of recruiting uneducated morans.
I used to respect the Police -I still do but I also think they're bunch of armed monkies.
No I know. As an ex soldier ( and ex Fireman...got bored), I really do think that a lot of people on this forum have led very fortunate but sheltered lives.
For them to hang draw and quarter an individual via video footage is just wrong.
I have not read every post but many of you don't realise that the cops have a right to use force - so long as it is proportionate. As for arresting her - if they arrest every person in this sort of situation then they will run out of cops - the cops will have been outnumbered. Two cops to every arrested person.
Just remember - a cop has the right to use force - they can grasp you, push you and hit you so long as it is proportionate to the situation. If someone moves towards a cop who tells them to back off and move away the cop can use force to ensure this is obeyed.
They can also use pain to coontrol people.
The arguments here should be about two things
The overall police tactics and was the force used proportionate.
lol zaskar i hope that was tongue in cheek 😉
In that situation im afraid a cheary "im sorry old chap but would you mind just backing up a bit" does not cut it.
Except that another officer basically did exactly that a minute later with seemingly successful results.
Good point, Zaskar; I was astounded to learn, a few years ago, that no academic qualifications are required to join the police. Shocking.
Mind you; ignorant, uneducated coppers are praps more easy to control, and will be less questioning about the orders given them.
hijack
brack i nearly went to iraq last year on a nice little earner but the brigade wanted me back on the new pension after my year out . which meant id have to do another 6 and a half years before i could go ;-( if you were that bored you should have moved to one of the leeds inner city centre stations its great fun 😉
hijack over 😉
And all this 'you don't know what it's like in that situation' stuff - well sorry, but I have had much bigger, more threatening people be much more aggressive than that woman was, and have managed to deal with the situation without slapping people or hitting them with a stick. And I am not supposed to be a professional trained in crowd control and behaviour management.
TandemJeremy
The arguments here should be about two things
The overall police tactics and [b]was the force used proportionate[/b].
It has been. It wasn't.
brack
I know. As an ex soldier, I really do think that a lot of people on this forum have led very fortunate but sheltered lives.For them to hang draw and quarter an individual via video footage is just wrong.
Some have, some haven't. And some don't feel the need to qualify their opinions by mentioning what careers they might have had.
You don't need to have been in the military to form an opinion on an unwarranted assault.
grumm - Member
And all this 'you don't know what it's like in that situation' stuff - well sorry, but I have had much bigger, more threatening people be much more aggressive than that woman was, and have managed to deal with the situation without slapping people or hitting them with a stick. And I am not supposed to be a professional trained in crowd control and behaviour management.
Seconded.
Oh but Im not the one with the opinion!!
Protesters aren't as tough as they used to be.
<ducks>
brack
Oh but Im not the one with the opinion!!
brackFor them to hang draw and quarter an individual via video footage is just wrong.
Now I think it's safe to assume that by hang, draw and quarter you mean, sack or prosecute? So I'm guessing your opinion is that the assault was justified or am I missing something?
I didn't think people get hung drawn and quartered anymore, or perhaps the met are introducing it as proportionate response to assaulting a police officer.
Have a look at the Met recruitment website...... it talks about "customer focus" and the competency based interview seems to have nothing to do with handling threatening/abusive people and more to do with "customer satisfaction". You also have to be credit checked to become a police officer. So really the people that will get the jobs are people living with parents, never had a credit card or loan and a bit of retail experience.... not exactly confidence inspiring
I think a thorough psychological check should be a rquirement for any aspiring police officer, so that anyone with violent (or cowardly) tendances could be removed from the recruitment process, and the credit check should be removed as it has naff all with someone's ability to do the job
and the credit check should be removed as it has naff all with someone's ability to do the job
I guess that has something to do with not wanting folks who are in deep debt & may be tempted to 'liberate' evidence
A credit check might reveal that you are poor, and therefore wanting the job to earn money, which as we all know is the wrong reason for becoming a cop. Being bullied or being a bully at school is the correct reason to join the force.
If you have no money, no qualifications and still want to beat people there's always the army.
out of interest mistergnar what were you doing to be caught up in numerous riots ?
mick (firestarter)
out of interest mistergnar what were you doing to be caught up in numerous riots ?
Usually standing outside a pub was enough. Like the time the RUC were called to break up a scuffle between roughly ten random teenagers who were scrapping outside a pub on a narrow cobbled street. The first landrover arrived and one of the youths stood infront of it. So the police officer drove over him crushing his pelvis and breaking both of his legs. Suddenly the situation changed from having ten or so troublemakers and a few hundred peaceful people leaving a pub to a few hundred angry rioters who were penned in by police.
Sometimes trying to go home, other times actually being at home and watching it unfold out my window.
ah it becomes much more clear 😉
The last video Yossarian posted is sickening.
Not one person can be seen striking back, they are all protesting peacefully and passively, only to be repeatedly struck with batons and the edge of shields.
🙁
RudeBoy - Member
Personally, I'duv ****ted anyone who came near me, and given them a good kicking.
Ever considered a career in the Police Force. You seem to have the right attitude.
what are people worried about, the Police are only battering potential terrorists 😐
Pretty sure they use these tactics just to put people off attending protests in the future.
"Be quiet and fall in line, your opinion counts for nothing."
Rich - MemberThe last video Yossarian posted is sickening.
Not one person can be seen striking back, they are all protesting peacefully and passively, only to be repeatedly struck with batons and the edge of shields.
I agree, it looks heavy handed.
Did you see the one woman in red who looks like she is spitting at one of the police (4:23) 😉
[i]In light of the G20 event Commissioner Sir Paul Stephenson has invited Her Majesty's Chief Inspector of Constabulary, Denis O'Connor, to conduct a review of related public order policing tactics.
Sir Paul said: "G20 was a complex policing operation managing the movement and protection of many heads of state across the capital while balancing the right to lawful protest and maintaining public order for many thousands of people.
"It is also the case that a number of complaints have been raised in relation to the tactic of containment and as to whether this achieves that balance. I want to be reassured that the use of this tactic remains appropriate and proportionate.
"Separately, I have already expressed my concern that the video footage of some police actions are clearly disturbing and should be thoroughly investigated. As well as the post-event investigation into those responsible for violence and disorder, I have also ensured that footage in police possession is reviewed to identify any other matters of individual police conduct that may warrant investigation.
"One matter that I also want to make clear is that uniformed police officers should be identifiable at all times by their shoulder identification numbers. The public has a right to be able to identify any uniformed officer whilst performing their duty. We must ensure this is always the case."[/i]
Looks like this kettling thing is going to be reviewed, among other issues.
I don't know much about it, other than what's been in the press, but I do have reservations about it.
@ sd: Now you were looking hard to find something you have to admit?!
Bet they wanted to do more than that after being treated how they were.
What starts as a simple peaceful protest could then instill hatred for the Police and their policies for life.
Not great customer relations is it?
He then uses reasonable force to move the lady back as shes not obeying a command from a police officer who's looking out for fellow officers.Did he bollocks! As she was not breaking any Law, she don't have to 'obey' the copper at all. The police are public servants, not the other way around.
ahhh what the hell your right why pay any attention to a police officer.
I remember when a bomb threat was called in at my sisters school and the police cordend off the area and told us to stay out, Should have just wandered back in while shouting abuse at them. Or that time when there are a multi car pile up on the M1 and the police slowed the trafic to a stop to let rescue workers work I should have just driven passed blairing my horn and throuwing more abuse. I broke no laws why pay any attention to them.
Thanks rudeboy you have opened my eyes to the world wow........
@ sd: Now you were looking hard to find something you have to admit?!
You are not getting me to admit to anything officer!
Saying that this clip shows a completely different view, I think they must have cycled off before it kicked off 😉
[url= http://london.indymedia.org.uk/videos/1004 ]Indymedia video clip G20[/url]
Nice vid, that shows how things can go when people aren't 'kettled' and baton charged. 🙂
bikerbaboon one obeys the police when their commands / sugestions are lawful or sensible as in the examples you give .One should challenge them when thier actions are clearly wrong or questionable .
Unfortuanatly too many people commenting on this protest belive they and we are slaves who owe the police unquestioning obedience and trust even when the tide of deliberate lies surrounding Ian Tomlinson are exposed one after the other. The lies(so far) 1, Tomlinson had no contact with police prior to his heart attack ,2 protestors rained bottles on police preventing them helping him, the video shows one plastic bottle thown at totaly unconcerned police 3 protestors stopped the ambulance getting through , video shows protestors part for the ambulance a wall of police block it and refuse to move.
Police tactics at Kingsnorth:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7943124.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7784301.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7918326.stm
yossarian
great video that proves the point,
most of these legitimate protests are hijacked by rent a mob muppetts whose only intention is to bait, assault and wind up the police, look at the meat heads in the background when the m.p is speaking, i bet their dad and brother are the same person
