[Closed] Molgrips's car episode #3 - the villain revealed!

Sort of depends on wether or not the specialist is prepared to put it in writing

Correct or trading standards may need a call.

So - press for a refund, or get the authorities involved? Or both? He can't be allowed to do stuff like this, but I got the impression last time I talked to him that he regretted ever getting involved. He admitted to me over the phone that he didn't really know what he was doing with regards electronics... 🙄

I would be getting trading standards involved !!

He can't be allowed to do stuff like this,

You mean a trades person ripping a customer off - happens every day.....

If the specialist will back you up then small claims court.

I don't want to wreck his business and put him out on the street though, if he realises he's made a mistake...

Tempted to take the car to VW and leave it there til it's perfectly fixed, then send him the bill.

Your claim is as good as the evidence the specialist will give you I'd say. May be worth getting something from them on paper before getting in touch - and they may get cold feet if you go to court.

Worth a try tho, robbing ****

He might settle out of court if I threaten him with that though.

He spent an afternoon starting and immediately shutting off the engine. I suspect that clogged the EGR system, but that's only a theory.

Tempted to take the car to VW and leave it there til it's perfectly fixed, then send him the bill.

You think your mobile mechanic was hopeless - try a VW trained mechanic - absolutely useless if it's an electrical problem.

They had my V6 Golf in for weeks on end for a miss-fire problem. Changed everything except the broken part (thankfully under warranty). In the end I took it to a specialist VW tuner, who fixed it in 5 minutes, faulty air mass sensor.

He spent an afternoon starting and immediately shutting off the engine. I suspect that clogged the EGR system, but that's only a theory.

I would love to know how this would cause the brake lights to stay on?
All car manufactures are trying really hard to keep things in house & out of "specialist" hands. Given that as a genuine specialist in only one marque we payed close to £10k last year for one computer to work on one brand of car with extra on-going costs for support, then as a multibrand mobile mechanic I'm sure your guy doesn't have the specialist equipment to diagnose your fault.

Cheers.

specialist equipment to diagnose your fault.

That's the problem, the equipment doesn't diagnose all faults and the mechanics just get trained to push a button and read the answer on the display, there's no understanding of what is actually going on.

Hence, when I took my car to the tuners, who fiddle around all day with engine management systems, they understood what might cause the symptoms and isolated the problem in minutes. The VAG diagnostic tool just said 'All OK', even though my 204 bhp car couldn't overtake a hearse!

I would love to know how this would cause the brake lights to stay on?

It doesn't.

Water in the trailer control module caused brake lights on; car not turning off or not turning off straight away; random bulb warning lights; sporadic errors of all kinds.

Removing said module fixed all that immediately, but there are two fault codes still outstanding. One is "insufficient EGR flow detected" which points to a coked up EGR pipe - it looked pretty bad when I took the valve off which is not what I'd expect from car that's just done 45k mostly motorway miles; the other is intake manifold flap position sensor short to ground - this could be genuine fault but it could also be related to the replacement ECU. There are two versions of the wiring loom released close together around the time my car was manufactured which wire the inlet manifold flap differently. The gearbox is also shifting slowly but there are no fault codes.

then as a multibrand mobile mechanic I'm sure your guy doesn't have the specialist equipment to diagnose your fault

He doesn't have the equipment or the brains, and he's definitely not my guy any more.

The specialist place I went to today uses autologic diagnostics, which they claim is the same as VW use. Still looks like a 3rd party to me mind.

The specialist place I went to today uses autologic diagnostics, which they claim is the same as VW use. Still looks like a 3rd party to me mind.

It is, as is anything outside of the dealer network, but it is as close as you will get, they even send their techs to the dealer training days as the monopolies commission says that they must be available to all.

[s]Out of interest what car?[/s]
Doh, VW, look at the ignition switch first if it's not the EGR.

Doh, VW, look at the ignition switch first if it's not the EGR.

Done, done, done.. this is the aftermath of all the head-scratching and googling. I'm now pretty sure I know exactly what went wrong, what happened, and what these leftover problems are.

Surely the first point of recourse/complaint should be to the actual mechanic rather than court?
You have to give him the option of putting things right or refunding??
You don't want him messing with your car again so full or partial refund?
If he refuses then take it from there.

Fair point, but the car is now worse than when he farted about with it, so I would like compensation or a properly fixed car. He won't be able to put it right so either compensation or he pays the bill.

Did he warranty the work? If so, fill yer boots. If not, caveat emptor..... I don't go to little one man bands for 'serious' stuff. They sometimes have the specialist knowledge but often not the scale if things go badly wrong.

I woke up with an answer:

The guy lied to you in order to get your money = FRAUD.

Threaten to call the cops. I doubt the specialist would want to be found changing his story to them.

Which model VW is it just out of interest?

which engine is fitted to it ?

Well, we only have one side, for all we know the mobile mechanic guy advised a visit to a specialist as it was out of his bailiwick, but the owner is a bit of an armchair mechanic, thought he knew better and wanted to save money ?? The owner insisted that he go ahead. Your word against his. That would be my defence, in the mechanic's shoes. Not saying that happened, just saying that seems a logical defence position.

Walk away, and think about buying a less complex car next time with a few less electronic doohickeys. I hear Skodas are reliable.

It wasn't that fat old, lecherous Scouse bloke they had on Dodgy Dealers or Watchdog or something not so long ago was it...?

Edit: The Mobile Mechanic, aka Mike Sawyer, on The Wirral.

[i]Threaten to call the cops. I doubt the specialist would want to be found changing his story to them. [/i]

I think have a conversation with him and relay what the specialist said.

If he won't offer any sort fo deal then say you'll be off to the police and reporting him for fraud. As Al says - the specialist is unlikely to try and cover up for a even a regular customer if the cops are involved.

I used a VAG "specialist" in Edinburgh when my Bora 2.0TDi died competely(well on reset it restarted but then something was oveloading the ECU and after 100m it killed everything). They spent 1 day looking for fault called in an autoelectrician, sent the ECU away to specialist who confirmed it was cooked and had been opened at sometime in the past new one back and fitted. Whole lot cost £680 car now back to going like a rocket.

The guy lied to you in order to get your money = FRAUD.

This is bang on. The specialist told him it wasn't water damaged, he told me it was. And it's a bit more than his word against theirs, because in their story, they told him that a new ECU would not fix the car, it didn't. Despite the fact that he told me it would definitely fix it (this was before I knew he was talking through his arse).

Which model VW is it just out of interest?

which engine is fitted to it ?

Passat 2.0 TDI 06, last PD model before CR, can't remember the engine code I think it's BKP though.

Walk away, and think about buying a less complex car next time with a few less electronic doohickeys. I hear Skodas are reliable.

You are joking, right? Cos Skodas are exactly the same as VWs underneath...?

I'll call the guy this morning once I've got my day job out of the way.

Ok, what exactly happened and what is wrong with it now?

If you think he lied deliberately to weasel money out of you then surely he'll lie again if you call the police or trading standards? Even with the specialist on your side you might struggle to make a case, although I'd be tempted to at least try. If he did this to you then he's done it to others and will continue to do so, even if he offers to cover your costs you've a moral obligation to ensure he doesn't do it again (IMO of course).

If you believe it was an honest mistake and he's learnt from it, then give him the facts and ask for compensation with no further action.

By the way, you started three sentences with the word 'So' - 5 minutes on the naughty step for you!

Ok, what exactly happened and what is wrong with it now?

The compressed version:

Odd electrical issues like brake lights staying on when the car's off, car not turning off even when key removed and doors locked and other stuff.

Called a mobile mechanic, he decided it was the ecu at fault

He goes to specialist, they tell him no (as above) but he insists on a refurb unit

Fits refurb unit, spends all day starting and stopping it from cold, no change to problems

Eventually I google enough to find an answer, trailer control module in boot full of water. Remove module, car behaves mostly

Now two codes remain relating to EGR and inlet manifold flap, and DSG gearbox shifting slowly.

Inlet and egr codes are probably related.

Have you had a look at the egr valve to see if its clogged?? if so take it off and clean it if possbile.

im curious as to what training mechanics actually go through these days

my mate brought me a citroen c1 with emissions faults. high Co2 and high lambda, garage had had a go at fixing it with a new exhaust. and was suggesting that my mate needed to change his oil to thicker oil as he was getting bypass- fortunantly doesnt really care for the car and working on it but hes not but hes not stupid (ex formula student team president)

stuck my code reader on the OBDII port and got "catalyst efficiency failure"

popped the bonnet looked for blows before the lambdas. - nothing they had at least fitted the exhaust right. how ever they had taken the lambdas from the old one and put them in the new exhaust.

30 seconds with the multimeter showed the post cat lambda stuck at 0V

bench test showed it to remain dead even with a torch on the end of it.

40 quid for a new bosch lambda and fitted it without even jacking the car up. MOT pass like a new car.

not saying they are all bad by the way before i get backlash - i know 2 or 3 that i trust but it seems any time i go near a dealer they just want to extort money by "trying new parts to please the system" rather than fixing the fault. Good old fashioned multi meter and knowing what the readings from the componants should be is what my trusted mechanic swears by - but hes a very much make do and mend rebuilding gearboxes kinda guy.

have you had a look at this site.........
https://sites.google.com/site/1810martin/home

you should get the specialist to give you their version of events in writing then approach idiot boy and tell him you will be reporting him to trading standards and will be speaking to the police about this. to be fair i dont think the police will do much other than say its not a criminal matter but a civil one...but trading standards could make things difficult for him...i wouldnt be surprised if you arent the only customer he's done over like this, which if this is the case and others have reported him to trading standards then there may be a case being built up against him....

other option is to set the Dom loose on him...
[url= http://www.singletrackworld.com/ ][img] http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQwQli-JgMqwYd5g1SGGLT19ICgnVi4pi5UAREHD-1aFFA2AMeI [/img][/url]

he should refund your money and pay for the repair in my opinion...

Have you had a look at the egr valve to see if its clogged?? if so take it off and clean it if possbile.

Done it. My VCDS reported 'regulation range exceeded' but the autologic scan reported the same code as 'insuffucient EGR flow' which is far more useful. When I had the valve off, I noticed that the recirc pipe was quite bad, so as soon as I get a chance I'll try and remove the whole thing enough to get some gas flowing, then I'm tempted to take it back to the specialist, they offer an intake and egr cleaning service but I suspect it's just a can of that cleaner sprayed through it. It's been mentioned on here a few times I'll have a search.

https://sites.google.com/site/1810martin/home

Yep, know the EGR sections by heart by now 🙂

get the toothbrush and degreaser out ? then find out if its possible to block the POS off ?

I'm not blocking it off. I don't want to spew more pollution than I have to.

I had an egr issue on an old vectra cdti I had, was advised to clean it but even after that the issue was still there.

Decided to fit a new egr valve which completely solved the problem and also returned the power to the engine.

Reading up it seems that the egr valve and manifold flap issues could be linked.

anti shudder valve and fuse 8 ??

probably why its blocked in the first place tbh. drive like granny annie and "maximise your economy" and you get a blocked EGR

No, I don't drive like a granny, I do long motorway trips including a spell in Germany where the car was driven pretty hard.

Driving for economy involves brisk acceleration up to speed and then maintain it. Not just going slowly.

Modern diesels do seem to need to be thrashed periodically to clear all the soot out of their internal gubbins.

[edit] I think it's more about driving it along at 5000rpm in third for a mile or two than doing a steady 80 (ish) on the motorway in 6th.

I take it the old 'waterlogged' ECU is now in the bin somewhere?

Did the specialist give the fraudster a paper report, or just a verbal one?

wwaswas has it. to blow all the stuff in the EGR out the back - seems to just be a storage vessel for "polution" most of it comes out eventually. the polution cost of manufacturing a replacement EGR valve is less than what i spew out the back im fairly sure. took my CAT to the scrap yard as well - why there was one on a diesel im not entirely sure for the microbe of difference it actually makes on a diesel.

I think it's more about driving it along at 5000rpm in third for a mile or two than doing a steady 80 (ish) on the motorway in 6th

I think you are thinking of DPF regeneration. And in any case, there wouldn't be any EGR in that situation, so it would to nothing for it.

martin - long verbal advice.

Tbh, the specialist should have refused to supply a new ECU to replace a working old one really - since they should have known it was being paid for with a customer's money.

seems to just be a storage vessel for "polution" most of it comes out eventually. the polution cost of manufacturing a replacement EGR valve is less than what i spew out the back im fairly sure

For trail_rat and others who don't know how this shit works:

Diesel engines burn very hot, and usually with excess air in the charge. This heat creates oxides of nitrogen known collectively as NOx, some of which are quite serious pollutants. They contribute to smog and have a negative impact on local air quality. EGR replaces some of the oxygen in the intake with CO2 by recirculating some exhaust gas into the intake charge. This lowers the combustion temperature and reduces NOx formation. It switches off when you boot it. People say it affects economy, but it doesn't seem to in my car since economy is unchanged now that the egr is not working (car defaults to 0% recirc when a fault is detected)

Catalytic converters on diesels convert CO to CO2 and also oxidise unburned diesel which could be HC fumes or fine soot particles.

inlet manifold motor and anti shudder valve !

[edit] I think it's more about driving it along at 5000rpm in third for a mile or two than doing a steady 80 (ish) on the motorway in 6th.

christ my car would be on the rev limiter at 5k revs !! and you suggest doing that for a mile or 2 !!!

DPF generation for my vehicle is above 2k revs for 20mins

inlet manifold motor and anti shudder valve !

The fault is 'short to ground' which suggests wiring. Code still comes back even when the flap motor is disconnected, which also suggests wiring. But the wiring tests ok. As previously mentioned there are two different wiring looms present in cars manufactured around the time mine was, I suspect the ECU is matched to the wrong version since the wiring suggests (to me) that short to ground is exactly what you'd expect.

I'm not saying bounce it off the rev limiter for an hour, just start wwith a well warmed engine and then sharp acceleration up to 90% of max revs and hold it here for a minute or two.

Repeat a few times.

Mine always seems generally less smokey after that sort of treatment and there isn't a trail of engine parts in the road behind me.

sounds plausible.

have you checked the fuses?

Yep. But fuses don't tend to short to ground very often 🙂

ok.

you need to confirm what ecu number you have and what should be fitted to your cars build.

How do I find that out? ELSA? Cos it would be great if I could find out, that would prove my theories.

speak to an ecu specialist?

all the cat did on mine was create water and cause it to rot through 😉

best way to reduce emissions is to drive very little - thats my EGR valve 😉

your cars obviously much more advanced than mine- mines is controled by a vacumn and a spring and does not turn off when i boot it. - i stuck a penny in the vaccumn pipe and no longer does it function.

It should have turned off when you boot it - that's what the vacuum tube is for.

probably already broken and clogged when i got it then. didnt look that far into it - mechanic said unless you want to spend the rest of your days with a toothbrush , degreaser and black hands block that shit off ....

doesnt help my engine wasnt really designed to have one and was rehashed with one to meat emissions.

if you speak nicely to your local vw dealer and give them your vin number they will be able to give you the correct part number for the correct ecu to be fitted to your car.

most parts fitted to cars are listed under the vin number and not by the model, which is why you normally get asked for your reg or vin number when trying to get parts.

Im guessing you have got the wrong ecu, however I still think you may have a flap motor issue.

The slow gearshifts may well be down to the faults with the engine, causing the engine to limit it's torque reduction during shifts if there are faults present. I'd focus on the engine faults first before worrying about the gearbox; if the shifts are slow when the engine faults have been cleared for a number of drive cycles, then investigate further / worry about the gearbox.

I will try the VW dealer, that's a good shout thanks.

Bamboo - interesting idea... it's plausible and would explain why there are no codes, it's just working differently. Can't find any reference to that behaviour online mind. And the codes I have don't affect engine performance or anything. But in the absence of any other leads I'll do as you say and focus on the fault codes.

molgrips... it really depends on the software strategy of the ECU, and I'm only guessing myself, but it seems plausible to me. I write embedded software for these kind of systems and don't think it is beyond the realms of possibility. Also bear in mind that some of the stuff you can read online can be total rubbish (except for STW where nobody is ever wrong 😉 )

Just called a solicitor about this. It could get messy 🙁

Apparently I'm not allowed to ask for details of the conversation between the electrical specialist and the mobile mechanic, cos it's their business, even though it's about my car. Problem is my case sort of hinges on it.

Unless I can prove that the mobile mechanic has not acted competently. There are no real records of it, but under cross examination it should be apparent I'd say.

The solicitor reckoned that the specialist's diagnostic tools would keep records of the jobs they do, and that I might be able to get hold of those. Anyone able to back that up?

You don't have much luck with cars do you?

How much compensation are you actually going to claim for?

You don't have much luck with cars do you?

I don't have much luck with garages, you mean.

I'm going to ask for my money back and someone to fix the problems he caused.

Ok, but how much - as in is it worth to you enough to take 2 days holiday to attend a hearing (based on him not turning up for the second)?

Well as I previously said we run autologic software & as far as I know they is no automatic logging of faults/jobs, but I dare say that if the specialist called autologic for support then they would of logged it, so worth an ask to the specialist.

Out of interest (I may of missed it) but is the car now totally fixed & what were the problems in the end?

Cheers.

The car's not fixed all the way, no. I think the ECU is the wrong version, so it's not recognising the inlet manfold flap properly, which is causing EGR faults. And the gearbox is not right either.

Ok, but how much - as in is it worth to you enough to take 2 days holiday to attend a hearing (based on him not turning up for the second)?

About £800. Given it could cost that much again to put the car right, I'd say it's worth it.

So you are after £1600, ok.

How much are you willing to lose (in legal costs etc) trying to get the £1600.

Its always a risk and you've got to realise that even though you think you've a water-tight case, you could lose and he could counter-claim for costs etc.

[i]The solicitor reckoned that the specialist's diagnostic tools would keep records of the jobs they do, and that I might be able to get hold of those. Anyone able to back that up? [/i]

Probably right, but they'll also probably charge you for it - although if they've sense, they'll just say they don't keep records/backups.

I find it hard to accept that circumstances have conspired to let this **** get away with it.. I can't really see how I can build a good case here.

You are a seriously angry young man.

If you post a summary of issues/parts/tests plus what you're trying to get out of this then I'll run it past a mate whose an exceptionally skilled/experienced mechanic. He's ex-Bentley and they still bring him on jobs they can't resolve.

[i]I find it hard to accept that circumstances have conspired to let this **** get away with it.. I can't really see how I can build a good case here. [/i]

Moly - 5h1t happens and sometimes its better (ie cheaper) just to walk away.

How legal stuff can get expensive...

http://www.****/news/article-2060357/The-500-000-row-garden-hedge-come-blows-landed-neighbours-court.html

You are a seriously angry young man.

Young - thanks 🙂

Angry - I think most people would be if they were ripped off.

Moly - 5h1t happens and sometimes its better (ie cheaper) just to walk away.

I know. I'm trying to decide if it's worth it. Car's still broken though.

Spacemonkey - thanks for the offer but it's pretty involved, not sure your mate would want to get involved on this basis... I've been in touch with a 'vehicle consultant' whose judgement is widely respected locally and in courts.

If it's only £1600, it isn't a solicitor job, it's a small claims track thing. You aren't going to come up against complex points of law in small claims court (even points of law which surely have to be rubbish - it is evidence as to how the work that is claimed to be done for you was done). If that was really true, then no one could ever check on their sub-subcontractors, which must be a load of rubbish.

If you can get the specialist to put in writing that he spoke to the guy and said that the ecu wasn't water damaged, then you should be fine. If possible I'd send him an email checking what you discussed with him, most people will happily send an email saying things whereas writing a signed statement might put some people off

Get that in writing, write down the facts in chronological order. Put it all in a letter to the dodgy mechanic saying you'll put it into court in 14 days unless he refunds you. Quite likely he will refund you now. In 14 days, put it into county court as a small claim - you don't need solicitors to do that, and aren't eligible for much in the way of his costs if you lose, and it costs not much to do. Worst case is that he fights it in court, but if you have him bang to rights, he might well not, or he will lose. Then you get enforcement (for that amount of money, you can get high court enforcement on him, which might be most effective).

It will take a couple of months total, but assuming you are capable of filling in a couple of forms and being vaguely organised, it is a piece of piss, and worked very well for me when I took a case against Derby Car Centre for a similar thing (they'd claimed to have got an engine fault fixed, and instead a piece of tape had been put over the engine warning light inside the dashboard). If they fight it, it also teaches them a lesson not to be such a dodgy geezer, as they end up paying more money (I think close to £3k was paid back total for my £1800 car after fees and costs and things).

Joemarshall that's great, thanks. Small claims was what I had in mind but I know nothing about it really so I didn't know you didn't need a solicitor. I'll chase it up.

assuming you are capable of filling in a couple of forms and being vaguely organised

Oh bugger.. that's me out then...

So now all I need is to get the specialists to write me an email or letter with their side of the story in it. Although - what'll happen if the specialists say 'we told him the ecu was fine' and the mobile guy says 'no you didn't' ? One word against the other..?

There are a few possibilities:

1) Mobile guy is an idiot and insists on a replacement ECU against advice
2) Specialists are lying about the water damage and told mobile guy porkies
3) There really was water damage, but it was not responsible for any of the symptoms...

1 seems most likely, and I'd have thought the threat of having 2 against their reputation would be enough to get the specialists to put pen to paper. It's in their interests.

3 seems highly improbable.

Come to think of it, there's also an argument to say that he should have done more diagnostic work on the car before deciding it was the ECU. All he did was have a quick glance at the codes and say 'oh it's buggered'.

One word against another is fine at small claims, it's balance of probilities you are after, not beyond reasonable doubt. JoeM is spot on.

Car's still broken though.

Well, on the plus side, overtaking won't be raising your blood pressure for a little while then!

Quite right, I don't much feel like it with the gearbox taking ages to change gear 🙁

I'm thinking perhaps I can get an expert to describe the proper procedure for determining electrical faults and diagnosing a damaged ECU. Cos I'm sure he didn't follow it.