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All abrahamic religions are sexist
Some are more sexist than others.
This is where you role old quotes from the Old Testament to show that modern, Western Christians are just the same as ISIS.
None of my muslim friends nor their wifes are any different from westerns ones. FWIW the scariest bossiest woman I know is a Muslim and I pity her husband. He is not even close to wearing the pants so to speak.
Is this your made up Muslim friends?
my view is hardening that they are not consistent with UK values
How do we decide what these values are? They're not mine, as far as I can tell, but who says what the rules are? (honest question, btw)
Is this your made up Muslim friends?
There is nowhere for a debate to go if you consider my posts to be fabrications
I shall turn the other cheek to the "polite" way to call me a liar 🙄
Not that any of this matters but I used to work in a heavily populated Asian areas and I made many friends. Some I still see and some I dont. Amusingly the ones I do see are either Muslims or a married gay couple. I may struggle to convince you on either front of the truthfulness of this account. I guess we will both just have to live with this.
FWIW the scariest bossiest woman I know is a Muslim
Here is a good Muslim woman role model 🙂
[i]but my view is hardening that they are not consistent with [s]UK values.[/s][/i] My views as a man
If anyone thinks that men don't largely control how women are represented or "allowed" to dress in this country, you're living in la la land.
Edit: I'd go on to say that in a lot of respects, a lot of mens views in this country are equal to the views of most men through out the world. ie they seek to dominate and dictate what women wear. At least the niqab tries to subvert that.
[quote=emsz said]
If anyone thinks that men don't largely control how women are represented or "allowed" to dress in this country, you're living in la la land.
Out of interest, who's controlling how you decide to dress ?
How do we decide what these values are? They're not mine, as far as I can tell, but who says what the rules are? (honest question, btw)
Oooh Oooh Oooh, I know this one...
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the truthfulness of this account
Just seems incredibly fortunate that you offer an example of a married Muslim couple that is the exact opposite of what is a very real problem for a lot of Muslim women.
Are you going to argue that a woman's evidence isn't considered inferior to a man's in a Sharia Court?
Islam is misogynistic and the reasons behind why women are expected to wear the Hijab is.
At least the niqab tries to subvert that.
? It does the exact opposite! It's the most repressive costume of all!
Depends dressing like Jordan may be the most repressive of all, having fake tans and fake boobs and aspirations of beauty like that may be the most repressive to a woman. Its interesting "they" think our were of overt sexualisation is oppressive and " we " think there way is the subjugation of women, Personally i would defend neither.
TBH I am not sure why you wish to ask me more questions when you dont believe what I say so I have declined.
Of course its convenient I am hardly likely to give an account that has no bearing on the subject 😕
what is a very real problem for a lot of Muslim women
This will be your personal experience of encounters with a lot of Muslim women then ?
[i]Out of interest, who's controlling how you decide to dress ?[/i]
society
[i]? It does the exact opposite! It's the most repressive costume of all![/i]
re read those comments up there about turbans, see how that's about men judging other mens clothing choices and how they don't see a problem with it, but when it comes to how women are dressing it's a completely different story . I think most blokes don't like the niqub and hijab because it's men not being able to influence what women are wearing. Most Muslim women wear one because they want to. Most poeple you hear objecting to it are men
I am not sure why you wish to ask me more questions when you dont believe what I say.
You are trying to defend the indefensible and apart from some anecdotal evidence of a strong, liberated Muslim woman that you know, you have offered nothing but some whataboutery.
Go back to hand wringing.
And you keep to the unreturned insults and telling me what Muslim women think because you can speak for them and tell me there problems.
And you keep to the unreturned insults
Where is the insult?
You have openly stated that you are a left wing hand wringer on other threads.
their their their not there.
Most Muslim women wear one because they want to.
They wear them because their fathers indoctrinated them into doing so, they also often have them circumcised.
I don't care for the Niqab but it's not because of some weird desire to control, I see it as a barrier to communication and it always suggests to me (perhaps wrongly) that there is some duress.
Note that I don't see anyone complaining about the Sari, nor even the hijab.
Any chance you could say how you know now this as a fact and how you are able to speak on behalf of muslim women ?
[ we wont ever have enough time for you to correct my spelling]
Wrecker that is the issue white men see it as that and dont realise that it is a choice*. Be honest how many niqab wearers have you asked directly ? how many do you know?
Its just not true to think that every single wearer of that item of clothing has been forced to do so by a man.
* or to reverse do you see a Sikh man in a turban and consider he has been forced to wear it and then see a Sikh woman and see she has been forced not to wear it ?
Any chance you could say how you know now this as a fact and how you are able to speak on behalf of muslim women ?
Know what?
That Sharia Law treats women as 2nd class citizens?
Or that the Koran states that it is not correct for women to be bare headed when in the presence of men who are not family and the reasons for that are sexual?
I am not speaking on behalf of anybody.
Its just not true to think that every single wearer of that item of clothing has been forced to do so by a man.
What a ridiculous statement.
I've had enough I'm off to cook some dinner.
You have said that the dress code is
a very real problem for a lot of Muslim women
I have asked repeatedly how you know this as you seem to be saying what they think and speaking for them.
Out of interest, who's controlling how you decide to dress ?society
How does that work, exactly ? Does society pop round with a catalogue of clothes that you are permitted to wear, or do they simply lay some clothes out for you each morning ?
What happens if you ignore this "society" and wear what you want ? Beating ? Stoning ? A mild look of rebuke ? Absolutely nothing ?
[i]That Sharia Law treats women as 2nd class citizens?[/i]
I think it's men who treat women as 2nd class citizens. whether they are muslim men doesn't make a massive difference as far as I can see
Wrecker that is the issue white men see it as that and dont realise it that it is a choice. Be honest how many niqab wearers have you asked directly ? how many do you know?
Am I allowed to talk to the wearer of a niqab? Probably a dumb question!
As I said, the wearer of a big black mask doesn't seem hugely approachable to me and I have no idea on the etiquette required.
I wonder, rather than looking for some one to blame shouldn't their parents be going after them?
[i]As I said, the wearer of a big black mask doesn't seem hugely approachable to me and I have no idea on the etiquette required.[/i]
your scared by a woman wearing a cloth covering her face? seriously? 😆
How d'you think you should talk to her?
your scared by a woman wearing a cloth covering her face? seriously?
😆
I didn't say I was scared (I'm not) but I am worried that she'd get in trouble for talking to such a dashingly handsome specimen as I! 😀
Not as worried as her [s]husband [/s] keeper is
Muslim women wear one because they want to
Throughout the years I worked in an essentially (93%) muslim school, this was not my experience. They all wore the same clothes because they had no choice. In those days (late 80s early 90s) you would see a few loose veils, now it's much more severe.
How people can argue that wearing all that stuff in some way liberates them I see as completely ludicrous relativism and as such it encourages and excuses mysogyny. Live a bit. Spend some time in the East End of London and see the liberated attitudes towards women. Walk down Brick Lane after the market as a western woman on her own, see what happens.
Hmm. Seems that there are many views on this. I used to teach a class that had a lot of Omani guys on the course. They dressed like all students in jeans and t shirts. Some years later I was in Oman and met up with one of the students who I'd kept in touch with. Now he was in traditional dishdasha. The girls were wearing black robes of one sort or another. I asked him if they were obliged to do that ahs he said no, until recently they'd worn jeans but now they told him that black was the fashion. So it seems that sometimes it's an obligation and sometimes it's a tradition and sometimes it's a choice.
emsz » Out of interest, who's controlling how you decide to dress ?society
cranberry » How does that work, exactly ? Does society pop round with a catalogue of clothes that you are permitted to wear, or do they simply lay some clothes out for you each morning ?What happens if you ignore this "society" and wear what you want ? Beating ? Stoning ? A mild look of rebuke ? Absolutely nothing ?
I was going to make a similar point.
Going slightly off topic but within this subject - I was watching a Wright Show one morning the guests of which included an actress that had a very similar viewpoint to Emsz. One of the male guests pointed out that it was in fact only other women (in the tabloids and mags) that were criticising what other women were wearing or how they presented themselves and men, for the most part, don't really care.
An interesting viewpoint, I thought...
I think most blokes don't like the niqub and hijab because it's men not being able to influence what women are wearing.
I don't think I've ever disagreed with anything on here so vehemently. It's sad you believe this, I hope that life shows you the opposite of this to be true.