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Depends on the volume of water displaced by the object vs. it's weight. My dive cylinders didn't float too well 😉
All those high tech knowledge etc from all over the world and they cannot even find the plane flown by two pilots from a developing country.
Needle, say hello to haystack...
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There's an enormous amount of absolutely bugger-all down there
misinformer - Member
I am assuming that carbon fibre is buoyant
What isn't bouyant if it's full of air
Carbonfibre isn't full of air, as that would compromise the structural integrity. However, the overall structure will have voids in, just like an aluminium airframe, but they won't be airtight, there may well be cables and ducting passing through.
There's an enormous amount of absolutely bugger-all down there
Assuming for a moment that it is the plane and it was intentionally flown to the limit of its fuel then ditched/crashed, someone went to a lot of effort to ensure that it would be as difficult as possible to ever find...
Really strange case, I'd be fascinated to know the full story behind it.
The Malaysian authorities have come in for an awful lot of criticism, but what strikes me is the relative lack of support from the countries with huge intelligence gathering capabilities....
Obama was able to watch a live feed of the Abbotabad raid, and even back in the 80s military satellites were reckoned to be capable of identifying a golf ball on a green...
... Yet, with the exception of the Chinese data, everything has been "attributable" to civvy systems. Now, I understand the need to protect "capability", but if there was military intel at play in the background, why weren't the Aussie Orions prowling the Southern Ocean a week ago ???
(Like the 'wegian freighter....)
why weren't the Aussie Orions prowling the Southern Ocean a week ago ???
A week ago they were looking in the wrong place. And a much smaller area.
I do find the lack of tracking from the big countries very odd. But maybe they are worried that they should have been able to track it but havent.
I think part of the problem is that the billions of dollars worth of satellites buzzing around the world are focussed on places like Korea, Ukraine, Syria, Afgahnistan even Cuba etc
I cant think of many places less likely to be covered than the arse end of the indian ocean
http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/5007183?utm_hp_ref=uk
Seems Australia's Prime Moron was trying to bury corrupt ministers in the news, rather than adding anything useful with his "we've found it" statement of the other day.
As one of the posters from the mostly unreported 100,000-strong protest against this government said on their banner: "resign, dickhead"
Depends on the volume of water displaced by the object vs. it's weight. My dive cylinders didn't float too well
The cylinders will float just fine with air at atmospheric pressure in them rather that much greater volume pressurised air.
Aluminium rather than steel I should clarify.
Aircraft pieces have sometimes been found floating for days after a sea crash. Peter Marosszeky, an aviation expert at the University of New South Wales, said the wing could remain buoyant for weeks if fuel tanks inside it were empty and had not filled with water.Other experts said that if the aircraft breaks into pieces, normally only items such as seats and luggage would remain floating.
Needle, say hello to haystack...
I've not kept up with this fully during the past few days, but in that map, is that where the plane is currently estimated to be?
I know it was said to have turned off and headed on a new trajectory (possibly heading for somewhere to attempt to land..?), but thousands of miles in the complete opposite direction, in the middle of the ocean??
the location is at the end of its fuel range,(and the direction was indicated by an automated satelite signal that couldve put it there or on the same trajectory but northward) in theory it couldve been left on autopilot.....
This really put the scale of the search into perspective for me
[img] http://im.ft-static.com/content/images/ef1a2c54-a03d-45d9-a5c8-a39b0a7e2072.img [/img]
or this
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I really doubt they'll find it in the States, unless it's down the back of someone's fridge.
I think part of the problem is that the billions of dollars worth of satellites buzzing around the world are focussed on places like Korea, Ukraine, Syria, Afgahnistan even Cuba etc
I cant think of many places less likely to be covered than the arse end of the indian ocean
Military sats don't work that way - their orbits are arranged so that they sweep the entire globe. With enough of them, you get the full time coverage of the targets / sensitive areas you want to look at.
Comms sats are totally different - they sit in a geostationary orbit above the equator, always in the same place. That's how the northern and southern search arcs have been defined - radii from the geostationary satellite that was receiving the aircraft's data comms
Less of this fact based opinion.
Military sats don't work that way - their orbits are arranged so that they sweep the entire globe. With enough of them, you get the full time coverage of the targets / sensitive areas you want to look at.
I'm not an expert on military satellite orbits, but I doubt many of them are in high polar orbits - there's not much for them to look at that way and their time over more interesting targets would be limited. Most of them are in less inclined lower orbits, or even in eccentric orbits that allow a low pass over one area of interest.
Admittedly, when I was studying this sort of stuff the north polar region was the front line in the Cold War... !
Obama was able to watch a live feed of the Abbotabad raid.
Obama was able to choose the time and place of the event he wanted to watch! If it were publicly known in advance where and when the plane was going to crash, it would have been easy to arrange for satellite/drone coverage.
Admittedly, when I was studying this sort of stuff the north polar region was the front line in the Cold War... !
You'd probably still want to have an inclined orbit - the problem with polar orbits is they pass over the poles every orbit, but they only pass over a particular point on the earth once every 10, 20, 30 orbits. You end up with lots of pictures of ice for every one picture of something interesting, and it takes ages to get around to a particular place you want to photograph.
Great for longer-term surveying, not so good for keeping an eye on specific things.
families told via text?
nice touch from the malaysians
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-26716572
refined? satelite data says it flew south
nice touch from the malaysians
been involved in serious/fatal incidents and given death messages much? I assume they tried to balance telling each of the families "personally" with getting the news out in a press conference before it leaked. One of the reports mentions phone calls, but if someone doesnt answer what do they do? Theyve been criticised for not sharing information so are in a lose-lose situation; if they'd not managed to reach some of the families before the conference there would be cries of "we only found out on the news, nice touch".
& TBH this news is not much of a surprise, shocking though it must be for the families.
Have they actually found anything yet or have they just gone "we've no idea where it is = everyones dead".
More detailed analysis of the Intelsat pings, apparently, allowed them to rule out the northern arc.
Sky News are running that the plane has been confirmed to have crashed into the sea by Australia.
I reckon it was shotdown and they spent the last 2 weeks cleaning up wreckage and sailing all the bits down to the southern Indian Ocean so they can be 'found'
I think you'll agree that its the only logical solution.
theyve used a new technique to analyse the inmarsat satelite data
Based on their new analysis, Inmarsat and the AAIB have concluded that MH370 flew along the southern corridor, and that its last position was in the middle of the Indian Ocean, west of Perth.
I reckon it was shotdown and they spent the last 2 weeks cleaning up wreckage and sailing all the bits down to the southern Indian Ocean so they can be 'found'
It was probably shot down over the ocean by something from the American base down there.
theyve used a new technique to analyse the inmarsat satelite data
Sounds interesting. Any links to new info?
Sounds interesting. Any links to new info?
brief description on bbc news. They used doppler shift in the satellite signals to locate origin. Sounds pretty next level
So my comment above remains. They've no idea where it is/have no evidence of where it is = everyone dead.
I believe the everyone dead bit but I'm interested to see where this great big airplane actually went and where the flotsam etc is if it fell out the sky over the sea.
I believe the everyone dead bit but I'm interested to see where this great big airplane actually went and where the flotsam etc is if it fell out the sky over the sea.
The great big airplane went into a much bigger sea. Amazing they've found it at all TBH. As someone posted above, it's a proper needle/haystack scenario. There's an awful lot of nothing down there...
Bear in mind it took nearly 2 years to find the black box from Air France 447 and they knew where to look for that!
somouk - MemberIt was probably shot down over the ocean by something from the American base down there.
Do you mean the antenna in Exmouth - pretty sure it's now run by contractors not the military (at least it was when I was down that way last year)
I still don't understand how it was so far south of it's starting point, surely such an experience pilot knows where the nearest land is should they need to land. Still, sad for the families
Do you mean the antenna in Exmouth - pretty sure it's now run by contractors not the military (at least it was when I was down that way last year)
I thought that was for talking to/from submarines? It looks quite impressive but I don't think it shoots down airliners.
So now the Malaysians are confirming that the plane def crashed in the Indian Ocean. Why do I find them hard to believe? Oh yeah, becuase no-one's actually found anything yet and the larger pieces of 'stuff' are to far apart to be related.
If I were cynical I'd suggest that the Malaysians just want this episode to go away.
The only scenario I can think off that made them fly to OzLand is the fact someone(s) wants to seek asylum there so hijacked the plane. Then fuel ran out ...
And so the simplest explanation which is usually correct comes into play, really an aircraft has crashed into the sea.
The only scenario I can think off that made them fly to OzLand is the fact someone(s) wants to seek asylum there so hijack the plane. Then fuel ran out ...
No, they could easily have reached Australia.
The only two plausible explanations now are:
Suicidal pilot / co pilot taking everyone with them
Attempted hijacking and the pilot steered the aircraft away from civilisation while telling hijackers that yes, they'd be in [insert destination] very soon.
I suppose a third option is some kind of daredevil mid air transfer of whatever wildly expensive cargo the plane was carrying (as per the film Cliffhanger) or an air drop to a waiting ship with the pilots/hijackers parachuting to safety like in Mission Impossible 2.
/conspiracy theory mode
crazy-legs - MemberNo, they could easily have reached Australia.
The only two plausible explanations now are:
Suicidal pilot / co pilot taking everyone with them
Highly unlikely for Malaysians even though they do have extremists in their country the notion of suicide by taking others with them is not part of their culture.
Attempted hijacking and the pilot steered the aircraft away from civilisation while telling hijackers that yes, they'd be in [insert destination] very soon.
Yes, this is highly likely as OzLand is seen part of the Western alliance while crashing into China is like throwing bunch of needles into haystack. The impact on China is practically non-existence. Chinese will simply multiply.
[quote=Rosss ]I still don't understand how it was so far south of it's starting point, surely such an experience pilot knows where the nearest land is should they need to land. Still, sad for the families
I don't believe the pilot wanted to land - whatever the reason for that might be (and I expect the answer is we'll never know, not even if they do find the black boxes - voice recorder will have only got the last 2 hours, and the chances are that's 2 hours of silence).
My theory:
Pilot wanted to top himself but his life insurance won't pay out for suicide so to look after his families interests he's flown a long range jet to the most inaccessible place where it's virtually impossible to recover the plane/flight recorder.
No flight recorder=no proof of suicide=Insurance payout for wife and kids.
flatfish - MemberMy theory:
No flight recorder=no proof of suicide=Insurance payout for wife and kids
Don't be silly. Nobody buys insurance that way there and insurance company will certainly not pay out regardless of how a person died.
You have to remember that you are referring to a developing country.