MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
all of sudden being blamed
It isn’t. It is exactly what everyone expects given everything that is going on right now. A crazy time to announce unforgivable policies.
Mini-Budget measures will likely increase inequality, says global lender
Bleedin-ell, even the purveyors of global austerity who traditionally couldn't give a toss about the devastating consequences of their brutal policies which they impose on struggling governments doesn't approve of Kwertang's mini budget because it "will likely increase inequality". That says it all really.
Although presumably the IMF would have been happier with a "balance budget" in which tax cuts were funded by cuts in government spending.
Hasn't someone told them that will come later?
conspiracy theory is *someone* out there playing the markets and shorting the pound to collapse the economy….?
No, it really is that the country has been run by utter ****-wits for the last 12 years, but since it took total leave of its senses in June 2016, where we are today was surely an inevitability?
It’s not a conspiracy. It’s just good, old-fashioned stupidity
And it’s going to get waaay worse than this too. Have you seen who the prime minister is?
We’re facing an absolutely enormous crisis and we’ve got someone nominally in charge who is out of her depth on a wet pavement
DT78
Free Member
whilst I think the budget seems crazy I can’t see why it’s all of sudden being blamed for crashing the pound and needing emergency rate risesconspiracy theory is *someone* out there playing the markets and shorting the pound to collapse the economy….?
There's a lot of people online making some compelling arguments that this is deliberate disaster economics that has made a lot of money for some Tory donors. With Truss though, I do believe it's mostly/entirely ideologically driven. Which is scary.
These days, its entirely possible I suppose. The party is riddled with corruption and a quick phone call could have made hundreds of millions for the "lucky".
@DT78 two things at play. 1. the international currency investment markets don't trust the British governments ability to pay down its debts, so it then doesn't trust the pound and buys dollars instead.
2. City speculators bet against the pound, in turn weakening it further whilst they made a boatload. No conspiracy, they're just bastards who will damage the economy in the long term to make a short term gain. They now also don't get their bonuses capped for doing this so win win for them
Although presumably the IMF would have been happier with a “balance budget” in which tax cuts were funded by cuts in government spending.
They have been clear that they think that the tax cuts for high earners should be ”reconsidered”.
Any sign of George Soros yet?
This, from 2012, is the roadmap for what they seem to be attempting now. The young guns of aggressive neoliberalism are now running the joint.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2012/aug/22/britannia-unchained-rise-of-new-tory-right
The basic premise is to pursue economic conditions which set the scene for a severe contraction of the state, including its welfare protections. Check out the Mark Littlewood (IEA) quote.
These think tanks stopped mincing their words some years ago - you had the likes of the Taxpayers Alliance, a kind of Daily Mail version of the IEA, suggesting a few years back that winter fuel allowances should be scrapped because the old folks weren't going to live long anyway.
It is extreme free market economics, and while a neutral onlooker might view this week's events as a disaster, it's actually possible that they are terraforming the economy to justify their next move on November 23.
Civil service pension is not invested either – it would be illegal if it was a private scheme..
It wouldn't be illegal if the liability is backed by the entity thats prints the currency, the safest thing a defined benefit pension fund can be invested in is gilts.
City speculators bet against the pound, in turn weakening it further whilst they made a boatload. No conspiracy, they’re just bastards who will damage the economy in the long term to make a short term gain.
This is so ironic, given its been the tories at the heart of this problem. Thats pretty much what their party stands for.
So when does Truss come out of hiding & fire her ex lover?
My brother has an appointment with mortgage brokers tomorrow as they were planning to move in the spring, his current deal runs out in January
The damage done by the Tories/IEA with austerity/brexit/mini budget ought to rule them out of office for a generation
https://twitter.com/MehreenKhn/status/1574879376801497089?t=OW9_1cvRYl3q6ExkPMd1fA&s=19
So it's going to be a brutal 5 year plan for austerity....
Yeah just what the country needs 😳
https://twitter.com/GeorgeWParker/status/1574864665481551875?t=78MQ1bGB1207qFB29gGTKA&s=19
kimbers
Full Member
So it’s going to be a brutal 5 year plan for austerity….
My son joined the fuzz a while back.... I've been telling him that he is likely to be facing large scale civil unrest over this governments policies.
He's still in training but been told that riot control is now treated as a higher priority than it was in the past.
Frankly the country is sick of austerity to put it politely. Particularly as it will be "necessary" to pay for the tax break for the wealthy.
This won't and well.
TBF, if you ever doubt that the tories are incompetent, it's the running down of the police that should seal it. Not just because it's a stupid idea, but because they've deliberately put the country on a course where mass disorder is more likely than it's been since the 70s, and also criminalised much more of the outlets of frustration. When you look at most right wingers, they reinforce this sort of power structure- not just in numbers but with glowing support. But even a force as shitty as the Met now can't be relied on as a private army as it once was.
Forget the pound, interest rates, bonds etc. This is all about setting the scene for a massive reduction in public services, freezing spend in the NHS,Police, Fire, Education etc.
This is not an unfunded bung, they just haven't given us the bad news yet.
This is a small state project. These ****s have a very big ambitions.
^^ I think you are right and it terrifies me to be honest.
A moment on tv years ago always stuck in my head, an interview with an economist that first coined the term "Brexit".
He said he saw it as the start of an attempt to change the UK from a welfare state to a free market economy.
It's always been the plan, especially with the NHS and the Welfare State. The rest of the world looks at those two parts of the UK and holds it up as a model of what can be achieved whereas the current lot look at the US system and think "Hmm, that's a better model as we can make money out of that!".
It's all playing out perfectly for them but abysmally for us.
Ah well at least you didn’t have to wait long to see the economic skill of the Truss government and what your getting 🙂
As said her aims are in a book written down.
Still happy days for the furrigners who can now buy up more U.K. assets at a rock bottom price.
Going to be an interesting ride to see exactly what gives first and how they bounce her out.
Redwood on R4 to paraphrase "cuckoo"
"IMF are wrong and it's probably their fault. This is much better than anything that went before."
so how long till the next GE? 2years?
will labour be any better if they get in then? Will there be a economy left?
the shorting of the pound should be banned. the people and companies doing that are already swimming in cash and its making the whole situation worse for the country. Its like when people deliberately pick a stock and try to crash it to buy it out. was there some reddit group that cottoned on to this with a gaming company and collective caused a massive problem by buying shares. maybe the British public, well those not freezing and soon to be starving should be shown how to shore up the pound collective to stop these bastards?
Redwood on R4 to paraphrase “cuckoo”
Redwood is madder than a bucket of spiders. It’s staggering that one man can be so consistently wrong about absolutely everything and terrifying to think that Truss actually listens to nutters like him.
What we’re witnessing is the continuation of the Brexit Disaster Capitalist project. They want to burn it all down, the NHS, the welfare state, the lot, and turn us into some Ayn Rand dystopia
will labour be any better if they get in then?
Seriously… give your head a wobble. The ‘they’re all the same’ narrative the Tories have aggressively pushed is half the reason we’re in this mess in the first place
A moment on tv years ago always stuck in my head, an interview with an economist that first coined the term “Brexit”.
He said he saw it as the start of an attempt to change the UK from a welfare state to a free market economy.
Back around the circle to the same place:
"Brexit isn't the destination, it's the vehicle"
If you voted Leave in 2016 or Tory in 2019 take responsibility for screwing up the lives of ordinary* folk, I just hope that it impacts you and your family more than mine #karma.
* - basically anyone who has to work for a living and/or rely on ANY state provision of ANY service
I don't remember thinking much better of blair and brown and that was mynonly experience of a labour government
they sent us to iraqi....I said I'd never vote for labour after that.
so that leaves any of the rest, who will never get in. my votes for green are just wasted
will labour be any better if they get in then?
As a very risk averse person, it is 100% a risk I am willing to take.
I don’t remember thinking much better of blair and brown and that was mynonly experience of a labour government
Then have a think about what the country would look like by now if this shower had got started with their ‘project’ 13 years earlier
If you think that the Labour Party would even contemplate something as insane as last Fridays debacle - borrowing huge sums to give tax breaks to the rich - then you’ve lost your grip on reality
Feel free to waste your vote at the next GE though, and enjoy another 5 years of Tory misrule 🙄
I don’t remember thinking much better of blair and brown and that was mynonly experience of a labour government
they sent us to iraqi….I said I’d never vote for labour after that.
Perhaps time to grow up a bit and do what's best for the country?
Well I'm worried that Labour might do something even more daft. like commit us to war. like Blair did multiple times.
whilst the tories have screwed up the economy no doubt there are worse ways things could go.
maybe you guys have a think too. telling people to grow up is incredible patronising
(and I will 100% not be voting tory)
I don’t remember thinking much better of blair and brown and that was mynonly experience of a labour government
they sent us to iraqi….I said I’d never vote for labour after that.
so that leaves any of the rest, who will never get in. my votes for green are just wasted
I'm genuinely curious. Would you prefer you or any of your family turning up to a hospital today, or how they were performing under the last Labour government?
Would you prefer you or any of your family turning up to a hospital today, or how they were performing under the last Labour government?
Or a schools. Schools were significantly better funded then
To claim there weren't serious failings with labour last time and forget the bad things that happened on their watch is almost as bad as people making apologies for the things the tories have done recently.
it seems the argument for voting Labour is "they can't be any worse surely"
I'm asking really on what evidence?
I'm a voter looking for a party that will get us out of this shitstorm.
Working in the nhs from the major years to now, the only time it’s ever felt like anything the government was committed to was 97-2010. You can blame Blair for the Iraq war all you like, the tories would’ve done the same but they would have not invested in the nhs the way the Blair government did. A vote for any party that makes Tory government more likely is an act of self harm as far as I’m concerned. Things are worse than I can ever remember and will only get worse if we don’t get this lot out and keep them out. It is that simple.
Whichever constituency you live in, you vote for the party most likely to beat the Tories
It’s that simple
We need electoral reform ASAP. That way every vote counts, not the nonsense FTP we have now.
We need to get back to consensual politics where politicians work together to find compromise for the good of the whole country, not the adversarial politics we have now; fuelled by the right wing press as it sells papers.
seems the FTSE's taking one for the team this morning after IMF marked Kwasi paper -2%
if you are a die hard labour voter, and your goal is to get your party in power *ignoring* or belittling floating voters isn't going to get the goal you want.
honestly I would love to believe labour will make this all better. it would actually make it much easier.
most of what are see are people saying it was better before, and it can't be worse. my view is, I'm not sure I need convincing. I felt vert strongly about unjust war and the fact Blair got away with it.
saying the tories would have gone to war is a unproven point, you don't know, its like me saying labour would have committed brexit so they just as bad as the tories.
Honestly I despair of our system where basically you have to either vote red or blue. (or vote tactically to get some one out).
everything seems so broken at the moment
Well I’m worried that Labour might do something even more daft. like commit us to war. like Blair did multiple times.
I was 100% against the Iraq war but remember that the Tories voted for it too.
Working in the nhs from the major years to now, the only time it’s ever felt like anything the government was committed to was 97-2010. You can blame Blair for the Iraq war all you like, the tories would’ve done the same but they would have not invested in the nhs the way the Blair government did. A vote for any party that makes Tory government more likely is an act of self harm as far as I’m concerned. Things are worse than I can ever remember and will only get worse if we don’t get this lot out and keep them out. It is that simple.
Nurse since 1996 and the only time I've felt valued (and got a payrise above inflation) was during the Blair/Brown years.
I have never seen the NHS so hollowed out and we're not into winter yet.
I’m a voter looking for a party that will get us out of this shitstorm.
Unfortunately, it's a 2 horse race.
I felt vert strongly about unjust war and the fact Blair got away with it.
Sure, but it was 20 years ago, and as others have said; Tories would've done the same (they voted for it).
There’s a lot of people online making some compelling arguments that this is deliberate disaster economics that has made a lot of money for some Tory donors. With Truss though, I do believe it’s mostly/entirely ideologically driven. Which is scary.
The two aren't mutually exclusive.
Donors might be able to buy subtle influences in leaders policies by buying up those hundred thousand pound lunches. But they're also backing the person who closely matches their interests. If you wanted this, it was cheaper to fund Truss' campaign so that she wins than it would be to bribe Sunak or any of the also-rans. In the same way I doubt we'd see a u-turn if the RMT declared they were funding the Tory party at the next GE. They don't want to buy influence, they just know which party is closest aligned with their aims.
My Tory MP this morning appears to be reaching the end of his rope.
https://twitter.com/JulianSmithUK/status/1574888103298441223
Well I’m worried that Labour might do something even more daft. like commit us to war. like Blair did multiple times.
Are you serious?
You think that because one labour leader went to war, that means labour is a party of war? You cannot seriously be that dim, can you?
That kind of bone-headed stupidity is a large part of what's wrong with politics.
Are you serious?
You think that because one labour leader went to war, that means labour is a party of war? You cannot seriously be that dim, can you?
That kind of bone-headed stupidity is a large part of what’s wrong with politics.
I concur with this statement
The pound isn’t crashing over a trifling batch of tax cuts. It’s because the markets are terrified of Starmer.
The pound isn’t crashing over a trifling batch of tax cuts. It’s because the markets are terrified of Starmer.
All these highly educated, motivated and ruthless money men are terrified of what a man who can't get into power for 2 years has said he might do if he's voted in?
Bunch of snowflakes.
Was he born last Friday? Looks a bit older to me
saying the tories would have gone to war is a unproven point, you don’t know,
Example - the Tories went to war in Libya, to 'free the people from a brutal dictator' then just f__ked off and left the Libyan people to the shitstorm that followed and continues to this day. Sound familiar?
There are definitely valid reasons why an argument could be made for not voting for Labour at the next GE. The Iraq war is not one of them.
I don't see anyone in the Labour Party I believe who can lead us out of this
and yes the wars (plural Blair took us to war more times than any other leader) plays heavy on my mind when I see Russians being conscripted against their will and what is going on in ukraine. I worry that could be us.
Now if you think my views are stupid that is an opinion, but I doubt I am the only one with such views and a less than rosey memory of the past time labour was in power.
it would be nice if you quit with the insults. if you want people to join your party of choice calling them idiots because they express their concerns isn't going to help...
I may well end up voting labour as said it appears to be blue or red. and I don't want blue. At the moment I would be negative voting. voting for what I don't want, and hoping the reds are better. I'd rather vote positive for someone I believe in. that currently isn't anyone
I have serious misgivings about 'Starmer's Labour' but to not vote Labour in the next election, to oust the Tories, would make you as amoral and idiotic as the RW Labourites who sabotaged Corbyn. Reeves has positioned Labour as 'pro-business' and only representing people in work so getting them elected will not be a panacea but it will be a start.
dangerousbeans
All these highly educated, motivated and ruthless money men are terrified of what a man who can’t get into power for 2 years has said he might do if he’s voted in?
Bunch of snowflakes.
You really think this is about tax cuts? That the fall in sterling and the surge in the price of government borrowing were responses to cutting income tax to 19p and returning to the 40p higher rate that pertained throughout all but the final month of the Blair/Brown years?
Come off it! Just look at the numbers. According to the Treasury, by far the biggest revenue commitment in Friday’s mini-budget was the energy price freeze (costing £31 billion for households, £29 billion for businesses). Then came the non-rises in National Insurance (£19 billion) and corporation tax (£19 billion).
Compared to these figures, the actual tax cuts – as opposed to the cancellation of proposed rises which no one, surely, would propose from first principles today – were trivial: £5 billion for the income tax cut; £2 billion for the long-overdue IR35 rollback; £2 billion for the scrapping of the top rate; £1.7 billion for the rise in the stamp duty threshold.
To listen to the BBC or the Labour Party, you’d think that the fall in the pound was caused, not by the £60 billion energy price freeze, nor yet by the £400 billion dropped on the lockdowns, but by the £2 billion which will supposedly be lost in removing the highest tax rate.
I felt vert strongly about unjust war and the fact Blair got away with it.
The loudest voices against the war in Iraq were from Labour MP's, especially Robin Cook. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_Cook#Resignation_over_Iraq_war
This thread is getting derailed
@DT78 if you want to argue the relative merits of Labour from 20 years ago, go jump on the Sir! Kier! Starmer! thread
To listen to the BBC or the Labour Party, you’d think that the fall in the pound was caused, not by the £60 billion energy price freeze, nor yet by the £400 billion dropped on the lockdowns, but by the £2 billion which will supposedly be lost in removing the highest tax rate.
It's not about how much it is, it's about what it represents and who it benefits
How many bikes you got Multi?
Blimey! What’s everyone been sprinkling on their cornflakes this morning? 😳
spawnofyorkshire
It’s not about how much it is, it’s about what it represents and who it benefits
To blame these tiny tax reductions for the fall in the pound is akin to a fly alighting on an exhausted shire horse as it lies down to sleep, and telling itself that it wrestled the mighty beast to the ground.
and yes the wars (plural Blair took us to war more times than any other leader)
...we're a long way from the budget, but before rewriting history why not google Kosovo to see why sending soldiers to stop murderous fascist regimes (contrast with Hurd sophisticatedly sitting on his hands whilst there were massacres and concentration camps in Europe); and Sierra Leone for that matter to see how this did actually lead to good outcomes for those on the receiving end.
COVID - Priced in
Energy crisis - priced in
Diabolical lunacy - not priced in
To blame these tiny tax reductions for the fall in the pound is akin to a fly alighting on an exhausted shire horse as it lies down to sleep, and telling itself that it wrestled the mighty beast to the ground.
So what did Starmer do on Friday to spook these men who rule the financial world?
And why are they all seeming to say it's in response to Tory direction not Labour's conference?
saying the tories would have gone to war is a unproven point, you don’t know
A greater percentage of Tory MP's voted for the war than Labour MP's - does that help?
dangerousbeans
So what did Starmer do on Friday to spook these men who rule the financial world?
And why are they all seeming to say it’s in response to Tory direction not Labour’s conference?
The fiscal statement has been so widely mischaracterised that I suspect several voters genuinely now believe that the Tories are trying to boost the economy by making the rich better off.
What the sterling sell-off may have reflected – and what those Deutsche Bank analysts may clumsily have been suggesting – is the belief that this budget has made a Labour victory more likely.
Eta
I can't keep posting this drivel, however this 👆 is what Daniel Hannan apparently believes. See:
https://conservativehome.com/2022/09/28/daniel-hannan-no-the-pound-isnt-crashing-because-of-a-trifling-batch-of-tax-cuts/
Christ I’m not saying I’m going to vote Tory because labour went to war.
I’m not going to vote Tory, full stop
I am worried about labours capability to do any better
I am also worried about a war.
I want a party that I have confidence in to sort out domestic affairs, and a party that will not go to war against putin.
the markets were spooked, because Krazy coked up Kwasi thought that not publishing OBR's take was some kind of master stroke in reality they have just assumed correctly the worse.
LOL at tory boys appeal to Authority fallacy of Conservative Home
Politics doesn't happen in a vacuum. It responds to what's gone before. It'll be a while before a government goes off to a foreign war precisely because of what happened to Blair after Iraq.
Markets got spooked re sterling because they were shown that the country's being badly run right now and according to many economists and the former chancellor the exact opposite of what's needed.
Page 1
Only government spending will boost growth.
When you (not just the poster) say growth please explain how you measure that and why that measure means anything to a country with a negative trade deficit.
Klunk
Free Member
LOL at tory boys appeal to Authority fallacy of Conservative Home
Multi21
Free Member
I can’t keep posting this drivel, however this 👆 is what Daniel Hannan apparently believes. See:
Just to be clear I think it's batshit crazy.
Treating the OBR report like the Russia Report or the Sue Gray Report has probably shown them that they should save their can-kicking and fact-hiding for Parliament, not the financial markets.
Nothing screams 'I've been told this is a shit idea, but I'm doing it anyway, and I think we've had enough of experts' quite like this. And makes institutions wonder - in the middle of two pre-existing crises - what the **** is coming next.
and yes the wars (plural Blair took us to war more times than any other leader) plays heavy on my mind when I see Russians being conscripted against their will and what is going on in ukraine. I worry that could be us.
You worry that Starmer would start conscripting us? Seriously, take more water with it.
The pound isn’t crashing over a trifling batch of tax cuts. It’s because the markets are terrified of Starmer.
I think this is batshit crazy.
I think this is batshit crazy.
Just the usual Tory narrative that absolutely everything is Labour's fault. That they've not been in government for 12 years is irrelevant.
The fiscal statement has been so widely mischaracterised that I suspect several voters genuinely now believe that the Tories are trying to boost the economy by making the rich better off.
More accurately
The fiscal statement has been so widely seen that I suspect Tory voters genuinely now believe that the Tories are trying to boost the economy.
On the other hand the financial markets just see it for what it is.. I way to transfer money from the poor to the super rich.
To listen to the BBC or the Labour Party, you’d think that the fall in the pound was caused, not by the £60 billion energy price freeze, nor yet by the £400 billion dropped on the lockdowns, but by the £2 billion which will supposedly be lost in removing the highest tax rate.
You don't need to listen to either ...
First question really is why would Truss or Kwarteng care about the UK economy?
What does it matter to them personally? They will have informed the investors in advance or the media and the media in advance of parliament and made sure they personally made enough money out of this and that their beneficiaries made even more.
In a single "not a budget" they transferred the future earnings of most of the country to their mates and personal offshore accounts.
Klunk
I think this is batshit crazy.
So do I, it's a quote (as was everything I posted) from the article written by Hannan which I linked.
What would you expect from Hannan of the ERG? Blimey it's extremely unlikely that Labour would propose anything that might upset international capitalism.
@multi21
You might want to make it clearer that you don't agree with something when you post like that. Looked very much like you were advocating the utter shite from Hannan
@multi21 thank goodness, I was about to call your carers and have you sedated
Aint the post-truth world just wonderful
t
spawnofyorkshire
Full Member@multi21
You might want to make it clearer that you don’t agree with something when you post like that. Looked very much like you were advocating the utter shite from Hannan
Apparently it was too subtle, I thought some people might have clocked it after the "fly alighting on an exhausted shire horse" quote 😀
What the sterling sell-off may have reflected – and what those Deutsche Bank analysts may clumsily have been suggesting – is the belief that this budget has made a Labour victory more likely.
Wow! Have you been eating the mushrooms that are now sprouting across this fair isle? I don't even know where to start with this fantasy analysis. I have no doubt this budget has made a labour govt more likely, but it's almost certain that the markets would calm down if Starmer and Reeves were installed tomorrow. What the markets are scared of is not tax cuts, but a Prime Minister and Chancellor who are willing to make reckless bets with the entire UK economy as an expression of faith in their outdated bankrupt ideology.
It's all very well wanting to switch to a low tax, small state economy, but that can't be done overnight, because the UK doesn't have the financial power to ride out the storms in currency and debt markets.
What the markets are scared of is not tax cuts, but a Prime Minister and Chancellor who are willing to make reckless bets with the entire UK economy as an expression of faith in their outdated bankrupt ideology.
Why would you think "the market's" are scared?
This is a huge opportunity for them ... from "the market's" perspective this is just betting on the pound falling or crashing against other currencies.
There is no point seeing this as personal .. it's just a way to make betting against the UK as profitable as possible.
I don't think it's much of a bet... I'm sure Truss knew exactly what would happen having been advised by the markets and has moved her own assets accordingly.
As Steve says "the markets" don't give a monkey's what the future holds, so long as they can make money in it when we get there and on the betting on it in the mean time.
This is a huge opportunity for them … from “the market’s” perspective this is just betting on the pound falling or crashing against other currencies.
Some (Kwasi's mates and former employer) think like that, but others are simply wisely dumping British investments because they expect their value to decline. To characterise it as being 'scared' is wrong, I agree, that would suggest irrational decisions.