Sure that’s right?
Aldi Freerange RSPCA assured is only £4.79/kg
Prices as observed for chicken breast pieces, not whole chickens.
Will be shopping in Aldi for my chickens next time…
I'm not convinced by that 70% claim. According to National Geographic there are between 50 and 430 billion birds on earth. According to DEFR there are 17 billion chickens worldwide.
https://www.nationalgeographic.co.uk/animals/2021/05/how-many-birds-are-there-in-the-world
According to National Geographic there are between 50 and 430 billion birds on earth.
That is quite the confidence interval. If the actual number is around the 50 billion mark and the average chicken lifespan is four months, then the number of chickens that are hatched each year would be in the ballpark of 70% of all birds hatched.
The national geographic confidence interval is possibly as accurate as the suspiciously round 7 out of 10 quote.
Why leave at that, why not take them to a mortuary to see the smashed up human remains of a serious car accident so they know what happens when they get a car
We have a local hospital program that works along those lines. Not quite a visit to a mortuary, but get to meet someone that got very close and it gives them a good shock.
Michael Pollan's excellent book Omnivore's Dilemma (from around 2008 IIRC) talked specifically about the issues of poultry farming, particularly in relation to water pollution from the concentration of chicken poo.
one of the many awesome things about chickens is that if you squint they totally look like the T-Rex from Jurassic Park. Which is why one of ours is called Grimlock 😂
We had a bantam cock that took on fox hounds for fun. Having witnessed a savage snarling **** of a dog scarper with a lacerated face from maybe a kg of flying cutlery I'd say evolution went like this
Raptor>Chicken
He ended his days in RAF Leuchars as the mascot for No. 43 Squadron.
Not sure they are cleverer than dogs or cats
No not sure about it, chickens do not show higher intelligence than a cat or dog. Having had chickens, cats and dogs for over 20 years I have never had a chicken (had around 30) I would count as intelligent.
They are great to have around the garden though, especially cockerels. So great I made the choice not to eat them over 40 years ago...
They are great to have around the garden though, especially cockerels. So great I made the choice not to eat them over 40 years ago…
That's a very long life for cockerels!
@kelvin:
Hmm… dubious.
Slow cook an old laying bird and it will fall apart. We had chickens when I was a kid… nothing wasted.
Yep. I'll do that with my layers when they've stopped laying, and replace them with a few girls that I've grown.
However, we're not talking slow-cooked old birds - we're talking battery-farmed rotisserie chickens in sainsbury's falling apart - and a rate of death amongst those birds because 28 days, no exercise and food designed to make them put on mass means they have real health problems - including the ligament issues I spoke about (which also contribute to the 4% heart attack rate).
My light sussex take 20 weeks to grow to full size naturally. That's obviously an economic no-no for large producers. But like I said, within two years we'll never have to buy our own chicken ever again.
That's a luxury that a lot of people can't afford, but it's part of why I moved to the country. I cannot in good conscience sit by and continue to consume meat in the UK in it's current offering. I find it morally abhorrent. But I'm strongly of the opinion that veganism isn't the solution to the problems we face and I tried vegetarianism for years but cannot stick with it - so that leaves me in a place where I control how the animals I eat are raised.
Backing up my ethics with my hard-earned is all I've got left - but I ain't spending that hard-earned without understanding what the problems are in the first place 🙂
End goal there appears to turn them vegetarian or vegan.
Are you suggesting that would be a negative outcome? if so... why?
The mistreatment and slaughter of millions of animals is out of sight, out of mind for so many people. Maybe if more were aware, they would change their eating habits, maybe to a more plantbased diet, which would be better for the world as a whole.
@muffinman - yep. Maceration is legal so still done. But don't be conned by the "gas" thing - suffocation is painful - and that's what CO2 does (I know they use inert gases in other situations). Suffocation is not really a nice painless drift off to sleep.
Frankly, I think maceration is probably kinder - at least it's almost instant. But tipping bucketloads of terrified chicks onto the conveyor belt of death can't be fun either.
Mass slaughter of chicks is just one thing. Look into how they mass-slaughter the adult birds. And then imagine how the nice way it's written doesn't really fit with the reality.
Ethics are a right pain in the arse. Had to look into the dairy process for work recently. I've concluded that being a consumer of anything involving mass produced animal products is grim.
synthetic dairy - basically indistinguishable from the real thing but made in a lab - is going to be the Next Big Thing, particularly for processed foods. Probably not great news for dairy farmers though!Had to look into the dairy process for work recently. I’ve concluded that being a consumer of anything involving mass produced animal products is grim.
On your "traumatized" kids waffle. Lol. Mates kids helped me process my last batch. They also go visit their grandparents on a working farm that does similar. They know what it involves - and for the past 150,000 years of homo-sapiens kids of that age were actively involved in DOING it. It's only since we've mechanised things that we've become separate from what we actually DO as a species - and that's wrong, and results in cruelty.
I've no doubt that it would indeed result in a lot more vegetarianism. Which would be a good thing for the planet. But it'd also lead to much higher welfare for animals - which is the morally right thing to do.
I think what we do now is snowflake-ism of the worst kind, morally reprehensible and intellectual cowardice.
Kids can take it. It'd be upsetting, yes. But they're only as fragile as we bring them up to be.
Got to agree with chevy (but not the odd "snowflake-ism" line)... if the process is extremely traumatising, don't hide it away, otherwise they'll never be the pressure to change it. Public cameras in slaughterhouses would soon lead to greater public pressure for a more humane end, even if at a higher cost and lower volumes. As an aside, my younger brother used to slaughter our birds, as a young teen.
The reason I used snowflake @kelvin - is that it's happening across all walks of life. We're not exposed to stuff so on the rare occasions that we do come across it (be it language used, unpopular opinions, unusual things in general) - we meltdown. (Sometimes violently because the level of anger is related to the level of shock - and if you're never exposed, you're more shocked).
Snowflakification of society 🙂
And since we ditched the enlightenment principle that we founded our society on - i.e. "I detest what you say but I will fight to the death for your right to say it" - and changed it to "I'm offended by what you say, so I will campaign for it to be banned like a thought-crime and for you to be locked up - but I do believe in 'free speech'" then this phenomenon is just going to get worse and worse.
You can say what you want. Deal with the consequences.
Nah. That's anti free-speech. As long as the consequences aren't criminal legal action then that's fair game. (Lose your job? Fine. But prison? That's the very definition of thought-crime).
Act in a way we don't like? Yep. Prison.
Say what we don't like? Different kettle of fish.
"I detest what you say, but will fight to the death for your right to say it".
Anything else is horribly dangerous.
What do you want to say that you think will result in you going to prison?!?
Are you quite sure you didn’t nod off while reading 1984, and wake up a bit confused?
End goal there appears to turn them vegetarian or vegan.
Are you suggesting that would be a negative outcome? if so… why?
Because the world would run out of cardboard?
@kelvin:
What do you want to say that you think will result in you going to prison?!?
Are you quite sure you didn’t nod off while reading 1984, and wake up a bit confused?
Nothing. I don't want to say anything that would land me in prison. But I understand that if we adhere to the enlightenment principles that our societies were founded on then there's stuff - stuff I really very vehemently disagree with - that people (arseholes, imo) can say that WILL land them in prison.
That's really really dangerous. Because it means we defer our ability to think to an authority - like a government - and we're infantilised by that. And it also massively increases the risk that unpopular speech - like "give gay people equal rights" - becomes criminalised and therefore injustice can easily become harder to reverse.
The fact that gay people have equal rights in this country is down to the fact that people were free to speak their mind without criminal consequences. They had all sorts of consequences (lost jobs, getting beaten up etc. etc.) - but they couldn't go to jail for it.
You can go to jail (or a lot lot worse) for speaking up for equal rights for gays in many countries. We used to chemically castrate our heros (see Alan Turing) for being gay in this country.
Free speech - including the protection of unpopular disgusting speech - is the only barrier to that.
IF you don't think that, that some speech should be prohibited - then you don't believe in free speech. You might tell yourself you do, but you don't really.
I think very few people in the UK actually believe in free speech. I bet vanishingly few actually deeply understand the concept and it's ramifications. And that can be seen by the fact that laws are regularly passed that weaken those protections because of the outrage of people who detest unpopular language.
It's a trap we've fallen into and it's one that leads to very horrible places.
Okay, nothing you want to say... but what "words" (not actions) by someone else can result in a prison sentence in the UK? How many people are in prison in the UK, right now, because they simply voiced their opinions? Based on what law?
If you're not already immediately aware of what sort of things we're talking about (and which I won't repeat here) then I can't help ya.
But I suspect you do know. And you're happy that they end up with prison sentences.
Just admit - you believe in freedom of speech "with limits". Which, in reality, is not freedom of speech.
Point me to one person in prison in the UK right now just for voicing their opinions?
I can't help you fight something that isn't happening.
That Begum woman has been effectively banished for her beliefs, not deeds.
For her actions, not her beliefs. A decision I don't agree with. She's not in prison though.
Who is in prison, in the UK, just for voicing their opinions? If this is genuinely happening, an example must be available. Sentencing is public in the UK.
If we're to call for their release in the name of "free speech", we need to have an example. And just as importantly, if there are laws that have been used to imprison someone just for speaking their opinion, let's detail them... so we can fight for their repeal or reform.
Point me to one person in prison in the UK right now just for voicing their opinions?
The reason you phrased your question that way is clear and apparent. You've decided that "voicing their opinion" is different from things that they say. A quick google search will find you lists of people and cases where people are in prison for things they've said.
Speech doesn't have to be considered - thoughts and opinions don't have to be intelligable, or reasoned or considered to be valid. If we are to be free, truly free, we have to be free to be arseholes.
We will never be that in our actions, but we must be that in our thoughts and words - however abominable.
You know that and know what I'm getting at. So I won't go any further with you - and refer you to the answer I gave above.
A quick google search will find you lists of people and cases where people are in prison for things they’ve said.
An example then? Google is big. Be precise and we can discuss it.
You know that and know what I’m getting at.
I haven’t got a Scooby. Really. Sorry.
End goal there appears to turn them vegetarian or vegan.
Are you suggesting that would be a negative outcome? if so… why?
They'll never experience the joy of bacon.
Sorry @kelvin, I'm not dumb enough to fall into the obvious trap. Been there before - and it'd just be you challenging me to justify "supporting" speech that should "rightfully" be banned.
If you genuinely don't have a scooby (pffft, yeah right) then google is a small space and a useful tool.
You know when two people manage to trash a reasonable thread with a sidebar irrelevant bicker......that.
Sorry Convert. People being so angry about things that might not even be happening worries me a lot. Lots of misplaced anger out there.
The stats, ethics and future of poultry farming really interests me as well, so I’ve been part of ruining a thread I was really enjoying. Sorry again to you and others.
“for the past 150,000 years of homo-sapiens kids of that age were actively involved in DOING it”
According to your ‘ancient apocalypse’ theorists (Graham Hancock, et al), were still stumble-bumbling within a post-apocalyptic caveman type epoch.
“This is the era of calamity” (Gwar).
The preceding epochs may have been more technologically advanced and less egregious to the planet. Think ‘Terraforming’, billenia ago:
Our ancestors may have had means to feed themselves, without bashing each others skulls in.
My argument @Greatbeardedone - is that traditionally kids have been involved in killing and processing food. Be it in an agrarian system or otherwise. It's only very recently that there's been a paradigm shift that means we're divorced from that - and whilst beneficial and freeing us up to do other things, it's also detrimental - in that the distance means we treat our food abominably, in ways that previously we never would have.
The way to fix that is to make sure - to force - everyone to have explicit experience of what our society is. So we can't lie to ourselves, and we can't pull the wool over our own eyes.
It's the morally correct thing to do.
So we can have a KFC as long as they wring the neck of the chicken ourselves?
I suspect that might well be a winner with the feral yoot of the UK 😀
Nobody should have a KFC. The outcome of eating one is only marginally better for the person eating it than it was for the chicken.
it’s also detrimental – in that the distance means we treat our food abominably, in ways that previously we never would have
I agree with that. If we keep food production hidden, out of sight, there is no pressure to improve it.
Nobody should have a KFC.
Au contraire. If you don't love KFC gravy then theres something wrong with you. Though I wouldn't recommend watching the channel 4 documentary on KFC which showed how it arrives at KFC stores and is turned from a solid into a liquid form
Lets just say that the old adage is true... never let light in on magic 🙂
Anyway... heres some yummy KFC gravy in action....
Surely any chicken would be happy to sacrifice its short life to go out doused in that?
If you don’t love KFC gravy then theres something wrong with you
I agree - because it's designed to be like crack cocaine. And if you don't like crack cocaine after trying it there's something wrong with you.
Doesn't mean I advise you trying it 😉
Fair point 😂
Currently reading 'Eating Animals' by safran foer, which discusses much of what's being posted here - its exclusively about the US context, but as he adds in the preface, UK is headed the same way - he published the book 14 years ago and judging by the Wye valley issue we've maybe caught them up! It's a good read and I'll be interested to know what he thinks the solution should be...greater transparency, education through exposure, lab grown meat, PETA running the show, etc. ?
I'm mostly on a plant based diet but love my poached eggs on sour dough toast so can't quite pat myself on the back yet...
