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I read a really interesting article about how motorcycles are often vulnerable when approaching on the major road with a car turning across the road from a minor road, a classic SMIDSY. They were trying to recommend something called the SMIDSYIAM, where as you approach so tip it left and right (like a weave) so you show you're clearly there and moving
It was a good article and helped to explain why they happen so often. It wasn't excusing them, but was trying to help explain them to vulnerable motorcycle users. Must try and track down the article
I’ve got no problem with taking the bell and reflectors off a bicycle. None at all.
I certainly wouldn’t go riding pinging the bell every 3seconds to annoy other road users, nope I see your argument is flawed and has no merit nor comparison.
Ding, Dong.
As for motorbike riders wearing tinted visors, that’s certainly a reality but one I have no problem with in the slightest. In fact I find it an odd Law to enforce when there are more interesting Laws to enforce.
The argument about loud exhausts will continue and rage along the highway for years to come. No motorbike rider has the right to break the Law when it comes to how loud they want to make themselves. Your argument falls flat when you have a Horn to use, whether that horn is loud enough is certainly a question to ask, but for this argument loud exhausts do not replace a facility that is there primarily to make aware other road users that you are in thier vicinity and would like to make them aware that you are about to make a manoeuvre that they should be aware of.
Quite simple really.
Bollocks.
You’d be beeping your horn almost constantly.
Most of the loud exhausts you think are illegal probably aren’t. Nobody is going to keep swapping end cans at MOT time.
Another point is why are they making electric cars with fake engine sounds now? It’s there to alert other road users and pedestrians to an oncoming vehicle.
Or should Tesla drivers have to constantly beep their horns?
There are lots of things that annoy us, sometimes we have to live and let live a little and understand we sometimes have be a little bit understanding.
As it is 100% down to the person choosing a noisy exhaust then the understanding lies with them, not with the people they are annoying.
Any other law breaking where we should live and let live ?
@bikebouy So let me get this straight you regardless of the legal or moral implications of it you honestly think that there are no times that a loud exhaust would make the presence of bike known where there would be no time to hit the horn?
Any other law breaking where we should live and let live ?
Kids riding on pavements?
As it is 100% down to the person choosing a noisy exhaust then the understanding lies with them, not with the people they are annoying.
Any other law breaking where we should live and let live ?
Yep the ones that help save lives. Also if its CE marked its legal regardless of what you think, thats the only test it needs to pass.
You lot are hilarious, on one hand you want bikers to behave in a way that's safer, then when they make themselves more noticeable and thus safer you moan about that too.
I bet you lot would be antisocial and ride a trail in the Lake District on a busy Bank Holiday weekend and think it was perfectly fine to terrorise walkers and families, that's legal so all fine !!!
Mind you most of you are probably in a coffee shop working out what the next thing to be offended by is 🙂
If you’d ever heard a motorcycle horn you’d laugh. They’re feeble and useless.
Years ago, when I was London despatch rider / courier, I ended up fitting a bloody great air horn to my top box. It was so loud that it had the curious effect of freezing traffic in terror, mid-manouevre which wasn't always a desirable thing. It sounded like something off an artic...
There was an study years ago that suggested motorists 'didn't see' motorcycles because they didn't view them as a threat to them sub-consciously. If however, you dress a bike up to look like a police motorcycle, suddenly it becomes very visible indeed. I reckon making it look like a helicopter gun-ship might work even better.
Any other law breaking where we should live and let live?
Kids riding on pavements?
People using bikes as two wheeled wheelchairs or push chairs in pedestrian only zones?
When I had a knackered knee I couldn't walk but cycling was tolerable if I took it steady - the only way I could get into town was by bike. My nearest town is a long walk or a short cycle ride. When I need to take my 2yo son into town it's much easier to use his seat on the bike as an improvised push chair rather than load a push chair into a car and find parking etc. Plus adding to traffic. (He can be quite noisy as well which can warn people of our approach but I probably ought not to mention that on this thread!)
Full disclosure: I also use my push bicycle for having fun on the public highway, which I'm confident nobody else on STW does.
Also there’s the general ‘presence’ they give you, filtering through traffic with a bit of noise makes you more ‘visible’ to drivers as they hear your before they see you.
Is there any actual evidence for this? Only time I notice load exhausts is as a pedestrian, in a modern car with the radio on, they don't make an difference....
I got so annoyed with walkers asking me where my bell was that I went and bought one for my G-160 - one of those matt black ones of eBay so I don’t look like a 5 year old - it’s flipping brilliant and I think they should be compulsory 😂
joking about the compulsory bit but not the brilliant bit!
Also there’s the general ‘presence’ they give you, filtering through traffic with a bit of noise makes you more ‘visible’ to drivers as they hear your before they see you.
Is there any actual evidence for this? Only time I notice load exhausts is as a pedestrian, in a modern car with the radio on, they don’t make an difference….
So no chance of hearing a horn then?
Have you thought you should probably turn it down so you are aware of your environment? If you failed to hear a horn surely that would be driving without due care and attention ?
Just saying like 🙂
How can the motorcyclist heat anything with that noisy illegal exhaust (plus earplugs, helmet etc.)
Better if everyone keeps the noise down and concentrates on safe driving.
Anyone can go a CBT for ~£150 and get on the road with a 125. Hardly expensive and adequate for 80% of general miles that most people do.
As a skinny 17yr old they were fine.
As a 6ft 16st 30something I'd struggle to motor pace a chain gang on one!
So no chance of hearing a horn then?
Horns aren't so much part of the background as engine/exhaust noise.
Its like compulsory DLR's though. Motorcycle organisations campaigned against them because motorbikes generally had them on all the time anyway, so if everyone had them they became less effective. Similarly if car drivers were to get used to 'looking' for something with a 105db screaming exhaust they won't 'see' a cyclist.
And on a Venn diagram of motorcyclists the overlap between those in hi-vis and those with horribly loud exhaust is pretty small.
You may like loud exhausts, but there is no reason for them.
I’ve got no problem with taking the bell and reflectors off a bicycle. None at all.
So, there's no reason for a loud exhaust, ergo don't fit one. But there is a reason for a bell and reflectors, which you're happy to remove? Right you are.
How can the motorcyclist heat anything with that noisy illegal exhaust (plus earplugs, helmet etc.)
Better if everyone keeps the noise down and concentrates on safe driving.
You'd think that but it's the complete opposite. With earplugs in and a fairly noisy exhaust I've been able to hear ambulances/police cars well before I've seen them multiple times, certainly earlier than the average driver. Ear plugs don't make you deaf, they just cut out the damaging wind noise.
I read a really interesting article about how motorcycles are often vulnerable when approaching on the major road with a car turning across the road from a minor road, a classic SMIDSY. They were trying to recommend something called the SMIDSYIAM, where as you approach so tip it left and right (like a weave) so you show you’re clearly there and moving
It was a good article and helped to explain why they happen so often. It wasn’t excusing them, but was trying to help explain them to vulnerable motorcycle users. Must try and track down the article
There's a really good video that demonstrates this, it shows that an approaching bike starts very small, stays small until it's less that 20ft from you, then get VERY large very quickly. Also shows that if you see a car side on and there's no movement between the car and the background then they also can see no movement between you and your background as a biker. Hence, the 'smidsy weave' to highlight your presence by making unnatural movements.
Here it is:
sometimes we have to live and let live a little and understand we sometimes have be a little bit understanding
This is type of comment is only ever made by people who expect others to make allowances for their selfish behaviour.
I know little about motorbikes, other than they are unpleasantly and unnecessarily noisy. I find cars too noisy too. I’m not sure there would be any need to give electric cars fake engine noise, if people drove with regard for more vulnerable road users like pedestrians. It would seem they may be necessary however, to allow people to drive in way that forces others to get out of their way.
Also there’s the general ‘presence’ they give you, filtering through traffic with a bit of noise makes you more ‘visible’ to drivers as they hear your before they see you.
Is there any actual evidence for this? Only time I notice load exhausts is as a pedestrian, in a modern car with the radio on, they don’t make an difference….
So no chance of hearing a horn then?
Have you thought you should probably turn it down so you are aware of your environment? If you failed to hear a horn surely that would be driving without due care and attention ?
Just saying like
Whenever I am cycling and an ambulance/police car comes along with its siren blaring, cars appear to take ages before they notice the sound, the ambulance needs to be virtually beside them. I too am dubious a noisy exhaust makes a motor cyclist more ‘visible’. Even if it did to a large extent, to rely on its affect and ride in a more risky manner sounds questionable.
Are loud exhausts not just used as part of the machismo?
Are loud exhausts not just used as part of the machismo?
they are really cool, well they are if you are a 12 year old boy who still wets the bed.
they are really cool, well they are if you are a 12 year old boy who still wets the bed.......
Or a 60 year old man who doesn't give a shit what you think.
Or a 60 year old man who doesn’t give a shit what you think.
Sums up the attitude very well, thanks.
The motorcyclists on this thread seem to be very, very defensive for what are attacks on the idiot type of motorcylist. I wouldn't defend an idiotic cyclist and I wouldn't defend an idiotic driver.
I dislike car drivers who have excessively noisy exhausts too and those noisy cyclists that have plastic cards hitting the spokes in their back wheel (you need to be old to remember that)
Every little helps when it comes to staying out the way of other motorists and staying alive. Be that a loud exhaust, bright headlights, high visibility jacket, a white helmet, defensive riding techniques, and so on. Each thing might only help 1% but that 1% could save a bikers life when that one driver 'nearly' doesn't see them.
Out of all our road users, I would expect cyclists to relate to this the most! I barely do a mile of road on my cycle commute but I feel far more vulnerable in that mile than I do on a 10 mile motorbike commute.
Also, you're either a petrol head or you're not, regardless of your age, I adore the sound of a V4 bike engine on full song, same as I love the sound of a V8 or V10 car engine. I despise the sound of a 125 with a tiny can which just sounds obnoxious. The same as I hate the sound of a 1.2l vauxhall Corsa with a stupidly load exhaust, again it's not needed. Cars/bikes that sound nice are part of the love of motoring and the love of performance cars/bikes, it goes hand in hand.
I know little about motorbikes, other than they are unpleasantly and unnecessarily noisy. I find cars too noisy too. I’m not sure there would be any need to give electric cars fake engine noise, if people drove with regard for more vulnerable road users like pedestrians.
The fake noise thing is to stop kids walking out into the road.
gauss1777
...Are loud exhausts not just used as part of the machismo?
It's to drown out the rattles of distress from the engine.
Usually caused by amateur tuning by nongs who think they know better than the engineers who developed the engine in a multi million pound engineering project.
I know this because... 🙂
I know little about motorbikes, other than they are unpleasantly and unnecessarily noisy. I find cars too noisy too. I’m not sure there would be any need to give electric cars fake engine noise, if people drove with regard for more vulnerable road users like pedestrians.
The fake noise thing is to stop kids walking out into the road.
Wouldn’t it be preferable to pay attention to what you are doing, anticipate kids and other such risks? My bicycle is close to silent and I’ve never come close to an errant ‘kid’. As a child we used to play in the streets, now we drive/ride around as noisily as we can, to keep children in their place.
It’s not about the driver it is about the pedestrian - for most people hearing is an important part of how they sense the world around them. I have never thought of myself as not paying attention but there have been one or two occasions recently when I have nearly stepped out in front of electric cars - I always stopped because I did a final check before moving but I can see how it would happen quite easily...
I'm guessing you've never ridden/driven in London? Hoardes of people (not just kids) head buried in their phones paying zero attention to the road, crossing where they like, playing chicken with the cars/busses/bikes, ignoring pedestrian crossings.
As a child we didn't have smartphones, and we had the green cross code man. Silent anything on the road is never a good idea.
Better get used to it as the world fills with (nearly) silent cars and motorbikes...
Rachel (who personally can’t wait - as soon as there is a decent electric bike, I’ll be swapping over)
I’m guessing you’ve never ridden/driven in London? Hoardes of people (not just kids) head buried in their phones paying zero attention to the road, crossing where they like, playing chicken with the cars/busses/bikes, ignoring pedestrian crossings.
As a child we didn’t have smartphones, and we had the green cross code man. Silent anything on the road is never a good idea.
Me? For 6 years, late 80’s early 90’s. Silent bicycle. You just need to take care. Whilst a noisy vehicle may bring your presence to the attention of some who are not paying attention, what happens when you cross paths with a deaf person on their phone? A constantly excessively loud vehicle seems to be a very high price to pay so that you can drive/ride at a speed incompatible with the conditions.
I have ridden in London many tines. I used to live there. Exhaust note is not a huge factor in whether you have a collision.
Rachel
As a child we didn’t have smartphones, and we had the green cross code man. Silent anything on the road is never a good idea.
And that officer is why I bounced the small child down the street, you know those angry birds and that instagram meant I didn't need to be aware of what was going on.
Like a group of 10 club cyclists holding up traffic ?
Bicycles are traffic though, they are unlikely to be speeding either, also they have an inalienable right to be on the queens highway, you as a motorcyclist are merely licensed and that permission can be revoked by the state at any time.
so that you can drive/ride at a speed incompatible with the conditions.
Who said anything about speed? We're talking about whether electric vehicles which are silent can cause more pedestrians to be hit by cars. Speed isn't what we're talking about.
And that officer is why I bounced the small child down the street, you know those angry birds and that instagram meant I didn’t need to be aware of what was going on.
So pedestrians should be allowed to wander about on roads without a care in the world because it's the car driver who wasn't paying attention fault when they walked out from behind a stopped bus, with no warning or possibility for the driver to stop? No. You walk out into traffic too busy playing angry birds to look before crossing and I'm sorry but it's not the driver that's at fault. Of course drivers have to pay attention, where did I ever say they didn't??? However, as a pedestrian, you use 2 or your 3 main senses when crossing the road. Sight and sound. Take away one of those senses and it doesn't take much to realise what will happen, especially when people are used to vehicles making at least a little bit of noise. There's only so much you can anticipate unless you fancy driving everwhere at 2mph...
Take unprotcted train crossings. Trains make little noise at the moment but they at least make some noise. Imagine a completely silent train and trying to cross over the line with one coming. Sod that.
I feel there are some trolls in this thread...
I feel there are some trolls in this thread…
Was that around when somebody said loud exhausts were needed to keep people safe?
Looks like not everybody agrees that silent vehicles are just as safe as those that make some noise.
NOT advocating for noisy exhausts on motorbikes by the way...!!!
so that you can drive/ride at a speed incompatible with the conditions.
Who said anything about speed? We’re talking about whether electric vehicles which are silent can cause more pedestrians to be hit by cars. Speed isn’t what we’re talking about.
Nobody mentioned speed, but I’m not sure it needed saying. If people stuck to the 20 mph speed limit, in the areas you’re likely to find pedestrians, your vehicle can be as quiet as you like - you’ll see what is going on around you in good time.
So pedestrians should be allowed to wander about on roads without a care in the world because it’s the car driver who wasn’t paying attention fault when they walked out from behind a stopped bus, with no warning or possibility for the driver to stop? No. You walk out into traffic too busy playing angry birds to look before crossing and I’m sorry but it’s not the driver that’s at fault.
This is is no doubt a common attitude, but I feel it is somewhat old fashioned. The times they are a changing.
I think there are some jurisdictions where it is always assumed to be the car driver that’s at fault in the first instance and maybe that’s not a bad thing.
No. You walk out into traffic too busy playing angry birds to look before crossing and I’m sorry but it’s not the driver that’s at fault.
Your Honour
OK, I agree that in some cases the blame in a car/pedestrian coming together can be shared. That doesn't change my opinion that silent vehicles pose more of a danger to pedestrians than vehicles that make noise, especially with all the distractions that are around now. And yes, if you drive a silent vehicle you have to take extra care when in areas with lots of pedestrians, because of this.
However - in my experience driving/riding something that makes a decent amount of noise gives you more presence to all road users and pedestrians, they simply notice you more and are more aware of you. You'll never change my opinion that loud pipes DO save lives.
But some pipes are too loud.
I think there are some jurisdictions where it is always assumed to be the car driver that’s at fault in the first instance and maybe that’s not a bad thing
Holland is like this. It’s probably no coincidence that it feels like a much safer place to be a pedestrian or cyclist.
That doesn’t change my opinion
Got some facts to back that up? Otherwise it's just opinion and everyone has one of those
Nobody is saying illegal exhausts are good, they’re not, but the exhausts that you think are illegal with your built in dB meters probably aren’t illegal.
Also, you never see a leopard stalking its prey with some tambourines strapped to its knees, because people don’t notice really quiet things creeping up on them.
Also, you never see a leopard stalking its prey with some tambourines strapped to its knees, because people don’t notice really quiet things creeping up on them.
Nobody is saying illegal exhausts are good, they’re not, but the exhausts that you think are illegal with your built in dB meters probably aren’t illegal.
How about we just crack down to a low limit? Or ban the sales of them unless we mark them in bright fluro pink?