I avoid getting into discussions about Brexit,
because its been shown to be an utter disaster and thus indefensible? 😉
I avoid getting into discussions about Brexit,
In modern Britain that must somewhat limit your conversation topics.
I can assure you that it doesn't, the only time I ever see a conversation on brexit is on here. Every bleedin day.
Your conversations would be somewhat limited if you didn't talk about brexit? No offence like, I'm sure that you are a great person, but I'm glad that I don't ride with you! 😉
I can assure you that it doesn’t, the only time I ever see a conversation on brexit is on here. Every bleedin day.
And yet opinion poll after opinion poll shows that a vast majority of voters now think that Brexit was a mistake and would vote to rejoin if given the option.
I accept of course that rejoining will be a slow and difficult process. But I won't vote for a party that doesn't at least hold it out as a long-term possibility. If Labour chooses to chase the reactionary isolationist bigot vote, good luck to them, but they won't get mine.
Your conversations would be somewhat limited if you didn’t talk about brexit?
Actually, I avoid talking about Brexit most days but then I do live in Norway.
I guess that next you're going to say it's none of my business since I don't live in the UK as yet another deflection tactic to avoid answering the question I've asked you at least 3 or 4 times now. Just to head that off, I'm very much affected by Brexit, both in my own life and in my family's life. I don't really want to go into the specifics right now but just so you know, I very much have skin in the game.
Anyway, for the 4th (or is it 5th) time, why is the difference between a nationalised industry and a private company whose majority shareholder is the government so important that it’s worth throwing a huge tranche of workers rights on the bonfire?
What's happened to the brexit thread? Seems like the dead and buried brexit issue is jumping from thread to thread but not the one it should be on so we can all ignore it.
It may be amongst the folk you speak with but its false among the folk I speak with and in Scotland in general
If we're doing anecdotal evidence then may I submit my experience that all my arch-remainer lefty mates don't ever talk about brexit and are still planning to vote labour at the next election. They are however utterly obsessed with tory incompetence, strikes, the failing health service, and spiralling cost of living. Brexit never gets a mention, and neither does Scotland for that matter 🙂.
And yet opinion poll after opinion poll shows that a vast majority of voters now think that Brexit was a mistake and would vote to rejoin if given the option.
And yet opinion after opinion poll shows an enormous and probably unassailable lead for a party who's central policy is not to reverse brexit. Seems like all those people who think brexit was a mistake aren't sufficiently animated enough about it to change their vote. It's almost like they've realised that brexit isn't really the problem.
Amongst my family and friends we have many cross border families.
Anecdote or not. To say no one is talking about brexit - you can only say that about the circles you are in and its not a universal experience.
I fully accept its a non issue to some but its also still a live issue to some
Personally I will NEVER shut up about it and NEVER vote for a brexit party. Reversing brexit is the single action that would improve the lot of the people of this country
Amongst my lefty pals I do not know of a single person who will vote labour and their embrace of Brexit is a major reason IMO
It’s almost like they’ve realised that brexit isn’t really the problem.
Or they are voting anti tory and holding their nose to vote labour? The polls seem to suggest that rather more than brexit not being an issue
If we’re doing anecdotal evidence then may I submit my experience that all my arch-remainer lefty mates don’t ever talk about brexit and are still planning to vote labour at the next election.
This. Well, the brexit talk still happens, just not with you... 😉
Anyway, agree or not with Lynch (Mick not Che) on the need for Brexit to deliver left wing policies (I don't) he puts across the interests and concerns of his members well, and pricks the lie bubbles the media and politicians float his way with ease... I think far more of the public are now aware of what the government are doing in this negotiation that they were pretending had nothing to do with them.
Imagine watching telly and jrm is spouting his brexit bs and having to agree with him.
Puke.
all my arch-remainer lefty mates don’t ever talk about brexit and are still planning to vote labour at the next election. They are however utterly obsessed with tory incompetence, strikes, the failing health service, and spiralling cost of living. Brexit never gets a mention, and neither does Scotland f
The danger of "I can't vote Labour as they won't reverse Brexit" is that the anti-Tory vote splits and they squeeze back through with FPTP.
Not getting all that we want may result in getting more of what we don't want.
Reversing brexit is the single action that would improve the lot of the people of this country
I'd have thought the single action that would improve the lot of the people of this country would be removing the Tory Party from power as quickly as possible.
They'd done more than enough damage before we left the EU a couple of years ago.
They’d done more than enough damage before we left the EU a couple of years ago.
This.
And, importantly, removing the Conservatives from office can be achieved in a single day, with our votes. Rebuilding links with the rest of Europe is a multi decade journey. There is no quick fix... the Brexit process was one way, which is why more caution was required before committing to it.
Of course I accept that lots of people are currently saying they will vote Labour, whether holding their noses regarding Brexit, or just because they don't care.
Like I said, good luck to them. I think they may be a bit less damaging than the Tories, they have some reasonable policies on some things. But I will never again be part of the "80% who voted for pro-Brexit parties". And trying to cope with the effects of Brexit, without daring to mention the root cause, cannot and will not work and will probably tear the party apart in the process, as it has done to the Tories.
Isn't something like 98% of a flight done by auto-pilot, the pilots are only there for take-off and landing, then as a back-up for the rest of the time?
I'm not sure how the pay compares, but it seems that train drivers do a lot more than pilots.
without daring to mention the root cause
Ignore people who tell you that voting for a party/candidate means that you must accept their whole programme for government. It's nonsense. You can vote for a party and still voice and stick to your opposition to any/many of their policies.
Likewise, you can absolute support and be impressed by Lynch's performance in the role he has without agreeing with him on everything.
I’m not sure how the pay compares, but it seems that train drivers do a lot more than pilots.
And arguably more successfully, if looking at safety records.
What’s happened to the brexit thread? Seems like the dead and buried brexit issue is jumping from thread to thread but not the one it should be on so we can all ignore it.
Thats the thing about Brexit, as much as people would like to ignore it, its effects impact across many issues, removing workers rights is just one of them
keep burrying your head in the sand though if its easier
If we’re doing anecdotal evidence then may I submit my experience that all my arch-remainer lefty mates don’t ever talk about brexit and are still planning to vote labour at the next election. They are however utterly obsessed with tory incompetence, strikes, the failing health service, and spiralling cost of living. Brexit never gets a mention, and neither does Scotland for that matter
Pretty much sums me up.
- Is Starmer Labour the perfect Labour party, very far from it.
- Is Starmer Labour the best option I have come election time, very much so.
(Of course the tory ****er will still get 60% where I live but let's pretend that is not the case)
And I wasn’t trying to win any “battle”, I asked a straightforward question. Someone seemed to make a connection with the EU and brown people and I asked if there was one as it didn’t seem to me that there was.
I gave you a straightforward answer. Twice now, I think.
For reasons best known to yourself you decided to take issue with my question.
I have no issue with your question, it's perfectly valid. The "issue" is your unwillingness to accept a reply, choosing instead to leap on pointless minutiae. Look, squirrel!
I avoid getting into discussions about Brexit,
You're not very good at it, are you.
I think I am. In fact I am constantly criticised for not engaging. I have to keep repeating that whether we stay or leave the EU is no longer an issue for most people. Except obviously on here.
I have to keep repeating that whether we stay or leave the EU is no longer an issue for most people. Except obviously on here.
And you keep being told that that is only true in some circles. Here and amongst my family and friends europe wide its the key issue
If it's still an issue when will the date of the next referendum be announced?
When london politicians stop lying? 😉
the majority of the population now understand its a mistake
Here and amongst my family and friends europe wide its the key issue
If you're struggling to pay your electricity bill, don't have enough food, can't get medical help for a chronic illness, can't get housing, are underpaid, are under skilled/under educated, or have a host of other problems which many, many people ( probably the majority) do, then you'd consider the EU issue to be largely irrelevant.
That's because it is.
None of the above issues are totally attributable to leaving the EU and are completely fixable outside of it.
I'd love to be in the EU and I think it was a huge mistake to leave. But we did and endlessly whinging about it only divides the opposition to the Tories and strengthens their position.
Many of those issues cannot be fixed outside the EU
Its not whinging on about it. Its continuing to point out the stupidity of it and making the brexiteers own the mess - which now includes the labourr party. Its about keeping the number 1 issue at the forefront of debate. Its about supporting the majority who now know it a mistake. Its about wanting the best for this union of countries. Its about not accpeting labour and torie lies on the EU,
Its never going to go away, the ill effects will continue and we will continue to fall behind until at the very least we are in a much closer alignment with the EU
Except....
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/12/01/brexit-has-added-6percent-to-britons-food-bills-new-study-finds.html
And arguably more successfully, if looking at safety records.
But ignoring the fact that planes work in three dimensional space, where trains only move in one (faster/slower)
Isn’t something like 98% of a flight done by auto-pilot, the pilots are only there for take-off and landing, then as a back-up for the rest of the time?
I’m not sure how the pay compares, but it seems that train drivers do a lot more than pilots.
There are many rail systems around the world that are partially or fully automated, so the potential for some level of 'auto-driver' clearly exists. The technical implementation for UK rail infrastructure would probably need a chunk of investment to update and standardise things, but actually taking any of those tasks off the driver would be a huge political challenge.
But ignoring the fact that planes work in three dimensional space,
Which means that they have loads of room for error!
I had no idea that walking was a more dangerous form of transport in the UK than cycling :
I'll remember that the next time I'm told "I won't cycle as it's too dangerous".
Edit: The stats in the link above only refer to "air", I believe that the overwhelming majority of air related fatalities involve private planes, not commercial planes. So flying on commercial planes is even safer than the figures suggest.
I had no idea that walking was a more dangerous form of transport in the UK than cycling :
Have you not been listening? 🙂 Ive been banging on about that for years. walking helmets make as much sense as cycling ones
walking helmets make as much sense as cycling ones
You walk at the same speed as you cycle - about 30mph downhill?
The human body didn't evolve to handle impacts into solid objects at speeds of over 5 or 6 mph.
Have you not been listening? 🙂 Ive been banging on about that for years. walking helmets make as much sense as cycling ones
just off to get some milk from the shop 😂
"The technical implementation for UK rail infrastructure would probably need a chunk of investment to update and standardise things"
A chunk of investment is an understatement
For example to automate the service in the South East would require changing the entire infrastructure. Signalling would need changing and look how long it took to resignal London Bridge! In addition all the third rail DC would need changing to overhead AC. Plus all the new rolling stock. It would require billions of pounds.
There is talk of it happening where I drive but the mooted date is well into the 2070's
https://twitter.com/the_tuc/status/1611028421882122241?s=21
https://twitter.com/the_tuc/status/1611028750501650436?s=21
Labour have already said that they’ll repeal these laws by the way, before we start the “all the same” stuff.
I had no idea that walking was a more dangerous form of transport in the UK than cycling :
Are joking or trolling? Because this does not show that walking is more dangerous than cycling.
The tweets by the TUC really do highlight the shortsightedness of voting for Brexit to "allow" for nationalisation of your industry when the referendum is conducted during a Tory administration. If you can't make the leap of imagination (as many folks pointed out at the time) that leaving the EU threatens worker rights legislation far far more presciently than it allows an environment where nationalisation becomes achievable. You open yourselves up to accusations of allowing your ideology to get in the way of the day to day practicalities of your member's [already hard-won] rights.
It's all very well to claim that you'd continue to "fight" for those to be returned should they be lost, but it's damned site easier not to allow oneself to be maneuvered into potentially losing them in the first place. Having to fight the same battle over again removes the shine from Lynch as a negotiator.
Are joking or trolling?
You have already established earlier today that I am a troll who should be ignored. To remind you here's your long spiel :
Gents
Do not feed the trolls. We can all see you mean well, but Ernie entered this conversation earlier with a crappy motte and bailey fallacy and has been shooting out other fallacy bait and intellectual dishonesty ever since.
He does not represent the majority opnion on here, or in the country, I think he does not even represent his own opinon. So why are you all wasting your time filling up a decent discussion by arguing with attention seeking trolls? You have to learn not scratch that little mossie bite.
Why don't you take your own advice?
There are many rail systems around the world that are partially or fully automated, so the potential for some level of ‘auto-driver’ clearly exists
It already exists.The Elizabeth Line trains are fully equipped with auto-drive, though there is a Driver on them still. When they terminate at Paddington, the Driver can get out, press a button, then the train automatically travels to the next junction,waits for the signal, then comes back into the adjacent platform. The Driver then gets back on to travel back the way they arrived. i read that the Central Core of this has to be automatic once the 24+ trains per hour are working, as a manual driver cannot keep to the timetable, and once one train is 2 minutes late, it backs up the whole system for hours afterwards.
2 of the Tube lines are automatic, and IIRC, London Bridge to Kings Cross, and , of course the Docklands are automatic, and has been for 20+ years.
The ECML is getting new signalling now to allow this to happen too. Once it has been proven on a main line, it will be rolled out across the Country, they are doing away with physical signals, and doing it all via radio links. Capital cost is around half of the cost of new signalling.
Even heavy freight engines have driver assist functions that tell the driver to accelerate/slow down etc. It was found some drivers used 10% more fuel on a trip, and their driving style was causing this, so the aids give a definite financial incentive to the Companies.
How much did the “The Elizabeth Line” cost? How long did it take to build? We’ve have a government that has cancelled all new lines north of Crewe. At the current rate, new lines and upgraded lines will be ready for driverless trains at some point next century. It’s all pie in the sky to think driverless trains on our existing ancient infrastructure can be part of any plan for transport over the next couple of decades. Driver aids are more about coping with increasing the utilisation of these lines than they are about making it any easier or cheaper to train drivers, never mind do away with them.
can’t get medical help for a chronic illness,
The pool of skilled Spanish staff that NHS could rely upon has been denied them by leaving and is directly attributable.
If you’re struggling to pay your electricity bill
That will be due to our government not being able to follow the lead of EU who are levying extra charges on the producers to reduce bills. One has less of a voice than 27, directly attributable.
don’t have enough food
Prices went up as food rotted un-picked in the fields. Guess where that labour used to come from?
There's three that affect the poorly paid/provided for. If I could be bothered I could probably find causes behind the other items but these are the three main ones.
The depressing thing is that Brexit is just allowing the Tories to "Turbo-Tory".
Brexit was always going to be a terrible, regressive step for the country. However, with the right government, the damage could have been more successfully limited and some benefits realized (And before somebody wheels out the "name one benefit of Brexit!" line...... I don't know what they are, but the reality is that Brexit has happened, and we have to find some way of making it work for us).
The problem is that The Tories are so far from being the "right" government that it's beyond parody. They are using Brexit to continue their ideological mission of asset-stripping the country in order to line their own pockets, and those of their mates/donors. Everything that they do is to further this singular aim - and it's always done at the expense of the British public.
Any country governed by these kind of people is going to be run into the ground, and Brexit has just accelerated this decline.
Now is not the time for navel-gazing, and debating ideology..... there is a very urgent need to remove these amoral kleptomaniacs from power, and install a government who is actually interested in doing what they are supposed to be doing: Governing for the good of the people.
If Starmer's policy was that he was going to re-open the pandora's box of Brexit if he won - it would allow the Tories to regain all the votes from people who were "fed up of hearing about it".... the Tory comms team would have a field day. It's far better for him to have a policy of "making brexit work" which appeals to (almost) everybody, and short-term, is really what needs to happen anyway.
I believe that anyone who voted/supported Brexit is fundamentally unsuited for a leadership role (unless you are one of those people who stood to directly benefit) because it required that you ignored facts/reality in favor of ideology.
However, I can criticize Mick Lynch for his support of Brexit - but appreciate the way in which he's winning/maintaining public support for the strikes, and shining a light on the shit-**** ery of the modern tory party.
PM, no. Union leader, also no. Union spokesperson - brilliant
there is a very urgent need to remove these amoral kleptomaniacs from power, and install a government who is actually interested in doing what they are supposed to be doing: Governing for the good of the people.
I wholeheartedly agree, but there's a fundamental flaw in this solution.
... the reality is that Brexit has happened, and we have to find some way of making it work for us
Why?
How long do you think it will take to rejoin the EU? On terms that the country would find acceptable?
That's not a short term strategy. Even if that's the long term goal, the reality is that the UK needs to find a way of making brexit work in the short term
LOL. You might as well say "Solar power isn't a short term strategy for satisfying the UK energy demands. We have to make unicorn farts work in the short term".
Why?
The EU is only going to consider a return for the UK if 1. the overwhelming majority of the population want it, and depending on what question you ask of folks, that isn't clear. and 2. it is the settled policy of EVERY political party that has a outside chance of getting into power. I'd say that's going to take anything between 10-30 years. In that intervening time, we've got to make the best of what we've got otherwise we'll end up as some sort of dingy backwater, and I don't want to live in a dingy backwater. I didn't vote for it, but here we are (democracy etc etc)
Getting back to Lynch and the RMT, clearly their support for Brexit is shortsighted and will in time be a tactical error that I think they'll come to regret. Inside the EU, workers rights are settled under law and his only battle is to nationalise his industry. As both France and Germany are effectively nationalised; it's clearly possible. The only challenge will be in the form of defending the decision in court, so their central claim (the you cannot have nationalised railways inside the EU) is clearly just a political one, not a real one. Now outside the EU, the RMT have the battle of both defending worker's rights and nationalisation, and workers rights will be challenged by successive Tory governments every time they're elected into power. That is, after all, the point of Brexit for them.
Unless Mick Lynch actually wants to have that fight every four or five years with every Tory government (and that's not beyond the realms of possibility) than he's not done his workers any favours by supporting a Tory shaped Brexit.
