[Closed] Michel Roux Jr

I'll never eat in the gavroche ever again.
Seriously though, what a cretin.

Thats reprehensible. To pay below living wage is bad enough but to keep the tips that's particularly snide.

+1.
No excuse.

but to keep the tips that's particularly snide.

I have reverted to leaving cash tips recently - avoids this issue, I hope.

mitsumonkey - Member
Disappointing and disbelief spring to mind. He comes across as a real good guy on the TV, very eloquent and well mannered.
Greed ruins even the best them I guess.
Sad.

Roux said this week he was “embarrassed and sorry” after the Guardian revealed he was paying chefs as little as £5.50 per hour when they were working 68 hours per week.

£5.50 per hour! Wow! Is that for real? 😯

Greed is the beginning of all evil.

Yes, you want more, more, more ... 😈

Very poor indeed and as said above he's always struck me as really decent bloke.

The "French" way is not to tip on the basis the staff are paid a decent salary so as to not require tips as a top up. I suspect the front of house staff and qualified chefs are well paid. I also suspect the staff on below living wage are not staff who would get tips anyway. I also suspect Gavroche uses the service charge to calculate it's total revenue and hence calculate salaries.

Last time I ate at Roux Brothers (Michell senior) restaurant we left no tip as it's not expected.

As the piece says from Jan 2017 it will be service compris anyway

The article seems to suggest that there is a little confusion in the wording too. That A 'service charge' (which is subject to taxation) is different to a tip (which isn't), so customers didn't think they had to tip as they thought they were one and the same. All he's doing to recify that is taking the 'service charge included' off the menu so people will leave a tip. No doubt not reducing the cost of the set menu. (Doesn't mention the ala carte, maybe that's different). Did it mention what happened to any cash tips?

Met him at gavroche 18 months ago, one of the nicest, seemingly genuine, approachable restauranteurs ive ever met. All the staff seemed incredibly proud to work there too, oddly, if that was going on.

What a total branleur

Can't really add to what tomhoward said; I ate there once about 3 years ago with the same experience.

Very disappointed.

It works the same in architecture: One of our architects used to work for Foster & Partners and the hours they were expected to work there meant their hourly rate worked out close to the minimum wage. They relied on people wanting that name on their CV. He said people would regularly work to 3am, and be in at 7 the next morning.

It's despicable that companies get away with this kind of exploitation, just on the basis of reputation alone. However, I do think hourly rate is a bit of a misnomer as it ultimately depends on your take-home pay: If that is adequate, then your hourly rate is somewhat irrelevant.

In the case above, the take home pay was meagre by comparison to others in the same profession, which is where the exploitation comes in. How does the basic pay, not the hourly rate, compare to other restaurants?

TBF the set menu is only £212 (plus another £27.56) a head.He's got to make money some how,the poor urchin.

Thats royally taking the piss .

A slightly different perspective

http://www.bighospitality.co.uk/Business/Michel-Roux-Jr-scraps-tipping-at-Le-Gavroche

And none of the coverage reveals how much his waiting staff earn, does it?

Same as the kitchen staff or more?

TBF the set menu is only £212 (plus another £27.56) a head.He's got to make money some how,the poor urchin.

Including wines. That's probably 8 courses using the finest ingredients prepared and served by the best staff plus sky high London property rental and business rates.

Personally I'd rather eat and drink there once every 3 months and skip all other meals out.

And none of the coverage reveals how much his waiting staff earn, does it?

That link posted by THM suggests £19K across the board.

They also do a very nice £50 lunch.

Ya, I must admit I don't know how much rent he is paying in paradise London ... 😛

Which means he might be justified to pay that sort of wage to survive ... 😀

That link doesn't mention the waiting staff's wages, we can only make assumptions on that, I'll wager minimum wage. Also what the hell is a service charge? The restaurant charge you extra for bringing your dinner to The table?! Or do they share that with the staff?
I'm with mikey74 on this one, it's exploitation of their reputation.

standard fare in your posh eateries.. i ve worked in 3 michelin star places the Maitre takes all the cash tips and shared as he/she felt appropriate.. which depending on close it was to paying his rent usually stayed in his/her pocket.. tips paid by card were kept by the business..

only way us rascals in the kitchen got a look in was playing cards after service with him/her

Not quite in the same league as Michel Roux Jr but we had a fairly large gathering at Bill's recently. When the bill came someone asked the waiter what happened to the service charge or tip. The waiter explained the staff do not get tips. What they do get is an additional 20p an hour on their hourly rate. So for a 6 hour shift they'd get a measly £1.20 which could be liable for tax and NI (not sure of the thresholds at the wages they're earning)

either way it's unacceptable. Our bill automatically had the "discretionary service charge" added as our group was over a certain size. I'm more than happy to tip well if it goes to the staff, but automatic service charges that are retained by the owners are basically robbery or false advertising and keeping tips at all and not sharing them among the staff is a 100% shitty thing to do

But he also recalled his own training in Paris in 1976, saying he slept on his grandmother’s couch and washed in the kitchen sink. “Did I look at my payslip?” he said. “Not once.”

thats ok them

[quote=bruneep ]But he also recalled his own training in Paris in 1976, saying he slept on his grandmother’s couch and washed in the kitchen sink. “Did I look at my payslip?” he said. “Not once.”
thats ok them

Aye given his parentage and upbringing I'm sure he was never short of money

so, as above, WTF actually is a servce charge and why would it be a percentage of the value of the meal? - and if that is justifiable (and non-discretionary any longer), they ought to just build it in to the prices

TBH, the more I think about this, the less outraged I am (I wasn't particularly before but hey ho)

£5.50 an hour is only such because they put so many hours in for a fixed (£19k a year) salary. They get the same regardless of how many hours they do, crap in busy periods, better when it's not as busy. Swings and roundabouts. Appreciate that the 3 month waiting list suggests the quiet periods are few and far between though. If t'were me, I'd record all my hours, and if my hourly rate over the year was less than min wage, I'd be wanting to have a chat about rectifying it

Given the clientele, I imagine that the number of cash tips will still be of a decent value, compared to a mainstream chain restaurant. I also imagine a lot of other restaurant use the 'it's a service charge, not a tip' mantra. The problem is punters are wrong to assume they are the same, or that the tax laws are different, restaurant is playing by the rules.

I'll happily go back to check this is what happens, obvs...

Including wines. That's probably 8 courses using the finest ingredients prepared and served by the best staff

£5.50 an hour is only such because they put so many hours in for a fixed (£19k a year) salary. They get the same regardless of how many hours they do, crap in busy periods, better when it's not as busy.

Hence why I said that hourly rate is a misnomer. I also get the same regardless of whether I do a 50 hour or standard 38 hour week. Unfortunately, it's a symptom of being a "professional".

that you'll poop out yer butt 5 hours later.

..I should be so lucky

So the spokeswomen lied until the issue was pushed a little.

mark d - Member
So the spokeswomen lied until the issue was pushed a little.

If she is the PR person I think she might be in a bit of poo poo if this escalates further ... 😆

personally I think a restaurant bill should be a total of your food and drinks, without any service charge etc. That way, a customer can tip if they feel the service was good. I really dislike places where it's added on automatically.

I know the government were consulting the public and restaurant industry about it but don't think anything has come of it yet.

That restaurant is not going to have quieter periods, the 65-hour weeks are standard practice.

AND PEOPLE ARE LIVING ON THE STREET, OTHERS ARE DEPENDING ON FOOD BANKS, AND FINALLY RESIDENTS ARE DIEING IN CARE HOMES THROUGH MALNUTRITION,

WHAT a self centred idiot.

Hence why I said that hourly rate is a misnomer. I also get the same regardless of whether I do a 50 hour or standard 38 hour week. Unfortunately, it's a symptom of being a "professional

This ^^^^

I would imagine a stint at a his restaurant is like a training contract, therefore when you leave (which you will for that money), you reap the rewards elsewhere.

I can't stand a fixed service charge though. The whole point of a service charge is that you decide how good the service is and tip accordingly.

The problem you have with all this is "celebrity" kitchens are aware they are career stepping stones both for chef and waiting staff.
Its not unusual for the hourly paid Kitchen porter to earn more than the commis chefs as their roles are seen as an unofficial apprenticeship's and are hard fought over.
Some kitchens use and abuse this system while others really train their staff well and open up doors later on. M Roux's kitchens are a good place to learn the craft from chefs I know who have worked for him.

The service tip on the other hand is a con and gives everyone in the hospitality industry a bad name. The problem he will have is the tax man reopening his books and seeing how he has declared this. Surprised he is doing it as bad press like this is hard to shift.

Can't help but wonder whether this 60+ hour working week is voluntary or compulsory. Makes a big difference.

Can't help but wonder whether this 60+ hour working week is voluntary or compulsory. Makes a big difference.

I'd venture, neither: it's on the same basis as all "professional" jobs, i.e. you stay until the job is done, regardless of whether that takes 10 hours or 60 hours. Either way, you get the same money.

Yeah, but it swings both ways. If I was on a 40 hour week on a fixed salary with no overtime I'd happily do 60 hours one week so long as I did 20 the next or get time in lieu. 60 hours week in week out whilst being paid for 40 is taking the kids, why would you work an extra 50% of your working week for free? What they need there is more staff.

It'll be expected that you do the 65 hours every Week without question. Given the prestige I'm sure vacancies would be filled rapidly.

Would be interested in the finances of a place like that.

The food is obviously super expensive but they won't do many covers and the overheads will be high given the location

To be the best in the world in any profession often requires sacrifices in terms of time/social life in the early days. You are either prepared to put the time in or you are not - no harm in the latter unless you expect the rewards that come with the former.

Unfortunately, it's a symptom of being a "professional".

AND PEOPLE ARE LIVING ON THE STREET, OTHERS ARE DEPENDING ON FOOD BANKS, AND FINALLY RESIDENTS ARE DIEING IN CARE HOMES THROUGH MALNUTRITION,
WHAT a self centred idiot

Love the change to lower case near the end.

FINALLY RESIDENTS ARE DIEING IN CARE HOMES THROUGH MALNUTRITION

Where is this reported, how is it relevant, and WTF has it got to go with this story?

I check where the tip goes these days before I pay it.

SOMETIMES paying cash gets round this.

A waitress told me last week that not only did the restaurant take a portion of the tip but the staff had to make up the difference some way if customers didn't pay the service charge!!!

Top whack prices should equal good wages.

Same as when Blumenthal says he's doesn't make much profit at around £255 + drinks per head.

Bloody hell since when was waiting tables a professional job??? I can't believe these positions in restaurants are salaried.

At that level, it always has been in order to get the best staff. Why, in this country, it's seen as a lower tier job, I'll never know. Your waiting staff are the front line for sales and customer satisfaction, just because they are dealing with food, not IT/cars/whatever where those roles are seen as 'professional' shouldn't matter. Especially at that end of the market.

Same as when Blumenthal says he's doesn't make much profit at around £255 + drinks per head.

I can well believe that, how many people/hours do you think are involved in the production of that meal?

Bloody hell since when was waiting tables a professional job??? I can't believe these positions in restaurants are salaried.

- At that level, it always has been in order to get the best staff. Why, in their country, it's seen as a lower tier job, I'll never know. Your waiting staff are the front line for sales and customer satisfaction, just because they are dealing with food, not IT/cars/whatever where those roles are seen as 'professional' shouldn't matter. Especially at that end of the market.

+1. And unless we start to treat it as a 'proper' job then restauranteurs will always get away with at or below minimum wage expecting it to be made out from tips.

As to why anyone would do 50% extra hours for no extra money. In some careers, to get the job done, it's what it takes sometimes. Rightly or wrongly.

In this case it's so you can do your time at a 2* restaurant, get it on your CV so you can then open your own restaurant, and hire your own staff to treat like slaves. It's always been the way, plus ca change.

We don't knock sportspeople who spend hours and hours practising their sport for little / no pay; I don't see this as much different. I'm not defending stealing tips that should be shared, but I will defend the fact that it's long hours. The staff know what the deal is and why they're there instead of doing more set hours at Pizza Hut.

He has paid people below the legal minimum wage.
He lied about the service charge.

No excuses, it's unjustifiable.

He has paid people below the legal minimum wage.
He lied about the service charge.
No excuses, it's unjustifiable.

As to why anyone would do 50% extra hours for no extra money. In some careers, to get the job done, it's what it takes sometimes

I can well believe that, how many people/hours do you think are involved in the production of that meal

His prices have doubled. Not sure his output has.

Not as prolific but Sat Baines employs about 30 staff and he's £110.

I understand the labour involved. I'm just not buying it. I don't have any problem with top flight levels of dining, I just don't expect Sorts Direct levels of business.

In this case it's so you can do your time at a 2* restaurant, get it on your CV so you can then open your own restaurant, and hire your own staff to treat like slaves. It's always been the way, plus ca change.

We don't knock sportspeople who spend hours and hours practising their sport for little / no pay; I don't see this as much different. I'm not defending stealing tips that should be shared, but I will defend the fact that it's long hours. The staff know what the deal is and why they're there instead of doing more set hours at Pizza Hut.

Totally agree with you on why the chefs are willing (and happy) to work such long hours - and the potential benefits to their future career.

But I do think we should support their efforts to get paid fairly for their hard work.

Hopefully they get fed at work, 'cos £19k isn't gonna stretch far working in central London - and I'd also worry that the low pay restricts entry to the profession to those who can afford to subsidise their own living costs.

As to why anyone would do 50% extra hours for no extra money. In some careers, to get the job done, it's what it takes sometimes. Rightly or wrongly.

Nope - always wrongly, always abuse / exploitation of staff

I'm right in saying you don't have to pay the service charge aren't I?
I've crossed it off in several places I've eaten...especially when they list 20% or so, and it's been poor..

Dr

mitsumonkey - Member
As to why anyone would do 50% extra hours for no extra money. In some careers, to get the job done, it's what it takes sometimes

'Sometimes' is the keyword there. Sometimes isn't every day, every shift. Flexibility is no bad thing but all too often employees are being exploited in salaried jobs.

- and also in response to TJ.

I did go on to say that in this case (where it is the norm) that there is a different scenario, and while i don't disagree that it is 'exploitation' of a sort, the people that are being exploited are accepting of it for the long term benefits.

Still think stealing their tips is a prickish thing to do though.

Met him at gavroche 18 months ago, one of the nicest, seemingly genuine, approachable restauranteurs ive ever met. All the staff seemed incredibly proud to work there too, oddly, if that was going on.

People say the same thing about Donald Trump when they meet him at his resorts. Of course he's nice to you - he's on the meter and thats what you're paying him for. 🙂

The whole tip/service charge thing should be left behind. It's a remnant of an era of class division and is only there to make the diners feel generous/superior and the staff grateful/inferior.

Still think stealing their tips is a prickish thing to do though.

As I understand it, he isn't. Customers think that the service charge is the same as a tip, so don't tip. It isn't.

Except that he lied about it.

Dunno how old you are tomhoward, but service charge didn't used to exist. It was introduced so people didn't have to work out the tip (and to deal with skinflints of course).

Restuarant staff used to explain the tip was already added when asked by diners.

This thing about it not being the same as a tip is new and IMO an attempt to gouge more money out of customers & staff at the same time.

Totally agree with you on why the chefs are willing (and happy) to work such long hours - and the potential benefits to their future career.

Indeed, its the same in many careers. I certainly did in my early days. Plus its enjoyable to build top-ranked businesses so always smile at the "I am not working past 17:00" mentality. Fine. just dont complain if others do better.

Will definitely be a bit more vigilant now about what is being added to my bill & whether it is a genuine tip for staff or just goes to the profits of the restaurant.

I'm noticing more & more places add on a 'service charge' rather than calling it a tip & I have always assumed it goes to the staff....

The problem you have with all this is "celebrity" kitchens are aware they are career stepping stones both for chef and waiting staff.

Chef maybe, but for the waiting staff?? Stepping stone to what? Do Pizza Express only hire waiting staff with Michelin star experience?

Is this referring to waiting staff and chefs?

Either way, waiters here are very different from Pizza Express and from my recent experience at a M* restaurant really add to the experience, especially a good sommelier.

Welcome to the Catering trade.

Been doing it for 20 years. The first 10 in commercial places. 60 hours week are quite normal.

The last 10 in a school have been much more relaxed.

I went to the fat duck recently, with the Mrs and a group of friends. For the volume of food and drink, £500 each was bloody extortionate. Yet apparently it barely breaks even.

Was famished on the way home, ended up grabbing a subway...

I'm moving towards a no tips policy. Antiquated system based on fear and embarassment, at least in Blighty.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28793677

Don't go to the Us then where anything less than 20% tip is considered a smack in the chops by the staff.

I went to the fat duck recently, with the Mrs and a group of friends. For the volume of food and drink, £500 each was bloody extortionate. Yet apparently it barely breaks even.
Was famished on the way home, ended up grabbing a subway...