[Closed] Measles outbreak, MMR and cretins who don't get their kids vacinated

Here's an interesting read from 2000 on the role of the local Swansea newspaper in the low MMR uptake rates in Swansea area.

http://jech.bmj.com/content/54/6/473.full

Can't you get him vaccinated?

Andrew Wakefield has a lot to answer for.

This ^

To be fair, I don't blame the parents (much), they think that they are doing the best thing for their children.

Who I do blame is Andrew Wakefield, who should hang his head in shame, and the national media for their appalling reporting of the study.

Who I do blame is Andrew Wakefield, who should hang his head in shame, and the national media for their appalling reporting of the study.

And Anne Diamond.

Can't you get him vaccinated?

They don't give it until they are about 8 months old or so. Children who have not had it because they are too young are particularly at risk if they catch it.

To be fair, I don't blame the parents (much), they think that they are doing the best thing for their children.

I take your point, but i would counter it with the fact that there has been enough publicity to denounce the flawed research and the quackery in the popular media that I don't think anyone is justified thinking that MMR is anything but safe.

Not forgetting Jeni Bloody Barnett

If single dose vaccinations were offered the uptake may well improve. Telling parents that it's Our Way Or The Highway is bound to have an adverse reaction.

My daughter got measles even tho she'd been vaccinated 😐
However not once did we question whether either of them should have the jab!

Telling parents that it's Our Way Or The Highway is bound to have an adverse reaction.

Or to put it another way - "look, we're the experts in this, we studied really hard and we've done our research. We're qualified to advise you and you really need to listen to us because it can save your child's life. If you chose to ignore us then it's not just your own child you're putting at risk, it's other peoples' children also.

I can understand that you don't yourself understand the science but that's not a good enough reason to discount it. This isn't a game and it's not a conspiracy. Just because we're the experts and you're not, doesn't mean we're trying to poison your children'.

If single dose vaccinations were offered the uptake may well improve. Telling parents that it's Our Way Or The Highway is bound to have an adverse reaction.

Everything I've read on the subject says that offering individual vaccines actually lowers overall uptake as the likliehood of missing a vaccination increases. It also can casue people to think along the lines of "if they are offering single dose vaccines then there must be something wrong with the MMR" which there isn't. N.B. At the time the only licenced single vaccine for measles was considered to be less effective than that in the MMR.

"Yes, I know you're a so-called 'expert', but Anne Diamond says I shouldn't" 😕

Ah, the Herd Immunity argument. If you've had your child immunised then why are you concerned about what other parents have chosen to do, based on their understanding of the issue? And how far would you take the compliance in the immunisation campaign? Exclusion from schools and nurseries for the unvaccinated? Benefit sanctions? Evictions from social housing?

I noticed that my doctor didn't call it MMR with my son - hopefully that means a few more get it done than otherwise. I do blame the parents - listen to your doctor.

Hmmmmmm - should I listen to my doctors advice? Or Anne Diamond?

If you've had your child immunised then why are you concerned about what other parents have chosen to do,

My son is six months old and is therefore too young to have it. So he is very vulnerable, which was my whole point.

And how far would you take the compliance in the immunisation campaign? Exclusion from schools and nurseries for the unvaccinated? Benefit sanctions? Evictions from social housing?

I think exclusion from schools and nurseries is a good idea and I would be in favour of that yes.

Not sure what differentiates 'social housing' from 'housing' so I can't comment.

Ah, the Herd Immunity argument.

Otherwise known as immunisation projects only work once everyone is immunised.

[i]the Herd Immunity argument[/i]

Argument? You mean that proven cornerstone of epidemiology?

Back in the day I visited the lab in Dublin that did the original (and unsurprisingly unrepeatable work for Wakefield) just after the anti-MMR hype started. They were a scarily incompetent bunch. It never surprised me that Wakefield was discredited. For the record I also told everyone back then that it was junk work - with some serious arguments from those that believed this junk.

Ah, the Herd Immunity argument. If you've had your child immunised then why are you concerned about what other parents have chosen to do, based on their understanding of the issue?

Herd immunity is the way that we ensure that those who either aren't vaccinated (e.g. are too young), can't be vaccinated (for whatever reason) or for whom the vaccine doesn't work are also protected. That is why everyone needs to be concerned about what other parents do. It's how vaccination works.

And how far would you take the compliance in the immunisation campaign? Exclusion from schools and nurseries for the unvaccinated? Benefit sanctions? Evictions from social housing?

You know there are parts of the US where such sanctions are imposed (well apart from the benefits and social housing). The freedom to choose what you do to and for your kids is not a freedom from the consequences of your actions and they can and do affect others. to put it another way, your right to swing your fists ends where my face begins.

The freedom to choose what you do to and for your kids is not a freedom from the consequences of your actions

<Applauds the eloquence of the argument>

I'm (nearly) 36, and I has to go back to have my MMR jab, as they couldn't find my records from when I was a kid.

I still don't like needles, AND I never got a sweet *harumpf*

Op

I think I heard someone from public health Wales say they'd dropped the age restriction to 6mths in the outbreak area...I may have misunderstood though...but if you live in South West Wales you may want to have a chat with a gp health visitor type person about it. Probably worth a discussion with health visitor anyway.

I think I heard someone from public health Wales say they'd dropped the age restriction to 6mths in the outbreak area..

That's good information, thanks for sharing. I am not in south Wales but there have been cases around where I live also, just not an outbreak like they've had there.

vaccination fans could try here for the (tinfoil hats on now) official opinion on things[url= http://immunisation.dh.gov.uk/category/the-green-book/ ]green book[/url]

Ah, the Herd Immunity argument

Nine month old son (second child) here.

Acquaintances have had neither of their children immunised. I am very keen that we don't see them until Udderlet 2 has had all his shots. Actually, I'm pretty keen we don't go near them at all, based on their appalling judgement.

At the time I wondered why the decision was made not to offer single vaccines. For in a short while they'd develop data that would trash Wakefield's arguement.

If you want your children to go blind or even die that's your decision but you're also putting my child at risk and that makes me angry.

Both ours have had all their jabs as recommended by the Health CTR. How do I know if that means they've had 2 shots of MMR, they're 7 and 9 now? Are both doses given as young kids or is it a later on booster?

What about me? How can I check - having had whooping cough last year I'm keen to avoid as many 'childhood' illnesses as possible thanks.

I guess the Health CTR can tell us, but don't want to waste their time if there's another way.

I wonder if there's a typical type of person who refuses MMR. Do some people not really understand the potential dangers of having measles?

At the time I wondered why the decision was made not to offer single vaccines

100% economic - the greater good argument as per OP

Give people a choice and they are more likely to take the choice you offer them.

theotherjonv - second MMR is intended to be before starting school at 5

read the green book chapter on scheduling - pretty sure it includes guff on "what to do with people who have lost their vaccination history" (assuming your GP doesn't have the records of course)

[i]Do some people not really understand the potential dangers of having measles? [/i]

No, they don't.

[i]so you'll be writing to your MP asking for the NHS to give those parents the choice of single vaccines then [/i]

No, the choice should not be available because they are less effective and [b]there is nothing wrong[/b] with the MMR vaccine.

so you'll be writing to your MP asking for the NHS to give those parents the choice of single vaccines then

No because as has already been established, the combined vaccine is both safe and more effective. Offering single vaccines is pandering to quackery.

I will however be writing to my MP to urge him to do more improve uptake and to consider the exclusion of children who haven't been vaccinated from schools and nurseries.

And, this isn't about individual choice, it's about societal good.

Given the choice, a lot of people wouldn't pay tax, or educate their children, but it's deemed to be for the greater good of society that they do, so the choice is removed. The same should apply here

I think that any sanctions against non-vaccinated children will break the ECHR and UK HRA.

Tony Blair did the most damage of all by refusing to reveal whether his son had been given MMR or individual vaccines - absolutely ridiculous when in reality the fall out form not revealing is potentially huge

Maybe parents should be forced to sign a form saying that by refusing MMR they are putting their child at risk of catching measles and list the potential dangers with stats. If I was a doctor and someone refused my advise I wonder if I'd suggest they find a new doctor.

Ah, the Herd Immunity argument. If you've had your child immunised then why are you concerned about what other parents have chosen to do

Because, as wrightyson demonstrated, immunisation is rarely 100% effective and relies on enough of the "herd" being immunised that the virus can't spread.

Maybe parents should be forced to sign a form saying that by refusing MMR they are putting their child at risk of catching measles and list the potential dangers with stats.

The thing is it may be okay for them to put their child at risk, but Herd Immunity means they are actually slightly increasing the risk to every child, not just their own.

Everyone had their part to play in the MMR issue.

Crap research, poorly reviewed by a supposedly high quality international journal, over-promoted on publication, with the inevitable media interest. Ignorant or wilfully exaggerated reporting in sections of the media (Daily Mail mainly).

Couple this with the pitiful, blustering response from the Department of Health, who initially outright dismissed the implied association between MMR, Crohns and autism without the strength of evidence to do so (that evidence is now in place, but certainly wasn't in 1998), and it's unsurprising that parents were and are both confused and distrustful of health advice.

Not many people come out of this with any credit.

Tony Blair did the most damage of all by refusing to reveal whether his son had been given MMR or individual vaccines - absolutely ridiculous when in reality the fall out form not revealing is potentially huge

I've got to disagree there. There is no way that the medical records of a child should be made public in an attempt to satisfy the public "concerns" for a non existant health risk.

I think that any sanctions against non-vaccinated children will break the ECHR and UK HRA.

Complete rot. Trumped by the rest of the population's right to healthy lives, preferably with their sight intact. An individual's human rights do not outweigh the safety of the rest of the population. Your interpretation, taken to its logical conclusion, suggests that incarcerating criminals would break ECHR and HRA.

I've got to disagree there. There is no way that the medical records of a child should be made public

Would knowing what the Blairs decided to do really have altered people's own choice?

Tony wasn't exactly known as the best decision-maker we've ever had.

Here's a thing, my daughter has had the MMR jab, yet she still got measles, albeit only a mild form.

Because vaccination isn't 100% effective, which is whyyou have to try to vaccinate everyone.

IHN - Member
And, this isn't about individual choice, it's about societal good.

Given the choice, a lot of people wouldn't pay tax, or educate their children, but it's deemed to be for the greater good of society that they do, so the choice is removed. The same should apply here

think the current trend is to "nudge" people to conform - so on the vaccine issue - low uptake triple dose MMR so why not offer option single dose if that might solve the problem?

(I'll answer that perceived cost and negotiating with GP's)

as to the CMO's credibility on other issues (which some of us considered and remembered) - here is an extract from Sir Donald Acheson's obituary in the Daily Telegraph - one persons greater good is some one else's problem

In November 1998 Acheson conceded at an inquiry that he might have misled the public over the safety of beef at the height of the "mad cow" epidemic in 1990, which was linked to the deaths of 29 people from a new form of Creutzfeldt-Jakob Disease.

At the time of the outbreak he had said in a television interview: "There is no risk associated with eating British beef, and everyone – children, adults, patients in hospital – can be quite confident with the safety of beef."

Looking back, Acheson said, he should have stuck to the more cautious line, previously agreed with his scientific advisers, that there was "no scientific justification for not eating British beef". The advice of his experts had been that "there was a remote risk, not no risk".

It was a measure of the tightrope that is often walked by the CMO. Acheson said that during the scare over salmonella in eggs, the government had tried to persuade him to issue over-optimistic public statements.

I think that any sanctions against non-vaccinated children will break the ECHR and UK HRA.

Why do you think that? Lots of decisions are taken against individual will, mental health 'sectioning' for example.

The whole thing was stupid. How many kids are born each year, say 500K. If you stick a empty needle into all of them then statically you will always get some that start to get a severe condition. Doesn't mean it is linked to the injection. In the same way you will always get some kids that do badly respond to MMR but from a government point of view they have to look at public health as a whole and whats best for the country. We might not like getting dictated to from government but sometimes it is needed as it's for the good of everyone.
Personally I have always thought you have to be an idiot not to give your kid the MMR. If you hate it so much get the single injections done privately.

Eldest was taken for polio diptheria and whatever it is yesterday, nurse commented that "not many people turn up for this one" is there some scar estory about this lot of jabs or is it just laziness from parents who CBA taking their kids?

edit IIRC someone on mrs side of the family (distant family) had the MMR and soon after developed problems, think a payout was involved, don't have the details tho. Did the NHS ever payout for [i]possible[/i] MMR links?

I would not hate people now, yes all need to be strongly encouraged to ensure children are vaccinated, however it seems we are living with the legacy of sitautions past, as previously described.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-22036576

Bloody awful disease, I had it as a child in the 70s, mum and dad talk of how touch-and-go it was of me pulling through. Fevers, hallucinations, fitting... *shudders at memory*

Hope everyone is unnaffected.

kev

When mrsH was heavily pregnant we decided not to get the Swine Flu vaccine.

Why the panic and hysteria OP? You've got many many years of potential harm from drivers/roads etc etc etc. My 3yr old lad ignored me and rode into the road on Wed night even though hes normally sensible.

As odd as it may seem to most right-minded people:

A separate issue is that some parents, large numbers in some areas, just do not bother (Others are suspicious of 'authority') to take their children for any immunisations or normal check-ups. These people may not be the most 'thinking' people in the community and many are not necessarily [i]too busy[/i] to visit the doctor.

They are actively encouraged and visited by the health authorities in an attempt to rectify the situation.

Why do you think that? Lots of decisions are taken against individual will, mental health 'sectioning' for example.

There would be direct evidence presented of immediate risk to that individual's health measured against his/her right to refuse treatment.

When the benefit to the individual is less marked - a moderate risk of infection with a very snall risk of complications or death, it's much more debateable. The vast majority of children survive measles infection with no after-effects or complications whatsoever. Herd immunity also offers little or no additional benefit to the individual.

IIRC someone on mrs side of the family (distant family) had the MMR and soon after developed problems, think a payout was involved, don't have the details tho. Did the NHS ever payout for possible MMR links

A small number of children will suffer vaccine damage - not of the type described by Wakefield, but complications linked to the vaccination nonetheless. ~Even 'safe' vaccines aren't 100% safe, there will always be a tiny number who will suffer reactions, some severe. The government has a scheme for paying out compensation to these families.

Why the panic and hysteria OP?

It's not either Hora, I'm angry at the idiocy of the situation, just like I'm angry at people who recklessly endanger others by driving too fast or using their mobile phone.

I know I sound very angry.

Hora, not wanting to get dragegd into this, but flu vaccine is different.

IIRC, there are countless forms of flu kicking around, it may help you as an individual to get the vaccine, will certainly do no harm, but as it is hit and miss it is not a population vaccine.

My understanding is that there is one form of polio, one measels, one mumps etc etc.

Does that make sense?

Kev

A separate issue is that some parents, large numbers in some areas, just do not bother to take their children for any immunisations or normal check-ups.

Kinda. But it's a little bit more complicated than that.

The BMJ link on the first page points to a fall in vaccinations in the areas where a local paper campaigned against MMR jabs. So there's a combination of apathy and people making a positive decision not to vaccinate going on here.

Uptake in the area covered by the study (the area around Swansea, where the current outbreak is taking place) was over 90% before the South Wales Evening Post's campaign, just over 77% after. Linky: [url= http://jech.bmj.com/content/54/6/473/T1.expansion.html ]http://jech.bmj.com/content/54/6/473/T1.expansion.html[/url]

There would be direct evidence presented of immediate risk to that individual's health measured against his/her right to refuse treatment.

It could also be the case that the individual presented a risk to the community, not just to him/herself. Either way, I very much doubt that making vaccinations obligatory would go against any current human rights legislation. IANAL, though.

Sometimes you can't do right for doing wrong..

My eldest was at the age for the MMR right in the middle of the scare / hysteria about it. We made the considered choice, as non-scientists who weren't able to reach an informed judgement, to pay for separate vaccines.

Unfortunately, we went with the doctor who was subsequently prosecuted for his shoddy practices (including not keeping vaccines refridgerated) so we ended up getting the MMR done at the GP anyway.

Much as I'm normally happy to blame the Daily Mail for most of society's ills, it's worth pointing out that one of the vociferous backers of Wakefield was the normally righteous Private Eye. They never really properly apologised when it became clear they had been disseminating dangerous nonsense.

I think I heard someone from public health Wales say they'd dropped the age restriction to 6mths in the outbreak area..

It could also be the case that the individual presented a risk to the community, not just to him/herself. Either way, I very much doubt that making vaccinations obligatory would go against any current human rights legislation. IANAL, though.

The lawyers would have fun with it either way, I guess, as you could make a good case in both directions.

As others have suggested, there are sneaky ways to compel parents to get their kids vaccinated without making it compulsory full stop - make nursery/school attendance conditional on vaccination, which I believe happens in other countries.

Of course it's panic and hysteria. In 2012 there were 2016 cases of measles in the UK, that's 0.003% of the population. I can't find stats for deaths from measles but a doc quoted by the BBC said it's 1 in every 1000 cases. The Health Protection Agency website says that a healthy person that contracts measles is highly unlikely to develop complications and even then it would be treatable by antibiotics.

There are many reasons that children are unvaccinated. The largest group is those who are too young, this group will always exist and will always be at risk of catching and transmitting the disease. The next largest group are those who cannot be vaccinated for medical reasons. The group who's parent decide not to vaccinate is very small.

In just two pages of posts we've read about two vaccinated children contracting the disease, so it's not quite as reliable as 'they' would have you believe anyway.

[conspiracy theory hat on] The current hype about unvaccinated children from the press and government has more to do with earning profits for mega-pharma than it does a genuine concern for children's health and wellbeing [conspiracy theory hat off]

So from my brief skim read here the doctor is always right? Do what they say without thought.

cough
Thalidomide

Parents "try" to do the right thing, arguing the MMR case with my wife involved a lot of "what ifs" evenually we had it done.

I have found my family doctor to be pretty poor to be fair.

bent udder - Member

" A separate issue is that some parents, large numbers in some areas, just do not bother to take their children for any immunisations or normal check-ups."

Kinda. But it's a little bit more complicated than that.

The BMJ link on the first page points to a fall in vaccinations in the areas where a local paper campaigned against MMR jabs. So there's a combination of apathy and people making a positive decision not to vaccinate going on here.

Agreed. There are other areas with a wider issue, though, and this has also mentioned.

In terms of sanctions/compulsion what I found interesting was that in 1998 I did a semester at a US university as part of my degree. In order to register as a student I needed to show my vaccination records and although I'd had the single vaccinations as a kid (and had my doctors records to prove it) I had to have MMR before they'd let me enrol.

The current hype about unvaccinated children from the press and government has more to do with earning profits for mega-pharma

There's a lot more profit in giving old men a stiffy than in the MMR jab.

Vaccines are safe and Gulf War Syndrome never existed .

So from my brief skim read here the doctor is always right? Do what they say without thought.

If I was medically qualified, or an epidemiologist, then I might question the medical profession more. I'm an accountant, so, yeah, I'll take the word of the doctors given that they know (a lot) more than I do.

Otherwise, it's a bit like those conspiracy theories about the twin towers, moon landing or whatever - I don't understand what you're telling me, so it can't be true...

In just two pages of posts we've read about two vaccinated children contracting the disease, so it's not quite as reliable as 'they' would have you believe anyway.

The plural of anecdote is not fact.

Two immunised kids contracting the disease. How many people with imunised kids have read this and their kids not had it?

Lots I expect. Bear in mind it's only 90% effective.

bent udder - Member

The plural of anecdote is not fact.

You've just killed the internet

In just two pages of posts we've read about two vaccinated children contracting the disease, so it's not quite as reliable as 'they' would have you believe anyway.

35 people in this thread - 2 cases of ineffective vaccination.

[i]"They"[/i] say effectiveness is supposed to be 90%.

So that all sounds about right given the small sample size. No?

The fact that vaccines are not 100% effective is the entire reasoning behind [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity ]herd immunity[/url].

There are many reasons that children are unvaccinated. The largest group is those who are too young, this group will always exist and will always be at risk of catching and transmitting the disease. The next largest group are those who cannot be vaccinated for medical reasons.

Yep.. and the way you protect the children in those two groups (plus those for whom the vaccine was not effective, plus those who choose not to have it) is by reducing the chances of the virus being transmitted to them by making sure everyone else is immunised.

gwaelod - Member
bent udder - Member
The plural of anecdote is not fact.

You've just killed the internet

Sorry about that. My bad. 🙁

No, the choice should not be available because they are less effective and there is nothing wrong with the MMR vaccine.

There IS a problem with the MMR vaccine - people are (wrongly) scared of it. Even if individual vaccines are less effective they should still be available, even at a cost and with the appropriate info. It isn't as good and shouldn't be necessary but is better than the current situation

Yeah, I see what you're saying, but by making the separate ones available you're reinforcing the idea that there is something wrong with the combined one, which there isn't.

Well I for one am very glad for all those people getting their kids vaccinated. My littlest one has been unable to have the MMR as he was diagnosed with needing heart surgery from the age of one (he would be un-eligible for surgery for quite some months if he'd had the jab).

He's now one and a half and is down to have the jab next week. Thank you to everyone in the herd for helping to keep him safe in this time.

🙂

Do some people not really understand the potential dangers of having measles?

There's potential dangers in letting your kids play outside, cycling on their bikes, playing conkers etc. etc. etc. I ended up on hospital for three days after playing hide-and-seek (long story!). There's a risk in anything.

I think the government handled it badly (possibly after string of untruths before that people just started not believing them for anything), but once someone says something is bad it's tremendously hard to convince even intelligent people that it's not.

There's potential dangers in letting your kids play outside, cycling on their bikes, playing conkers etc. etc. etc.

Of course - but most parents try to reduce the risk to their children (e.g. it's risky crossing the road. We still let them do it but we teach them the green cross code)

Vaccination is a very simple measure that reduces the risk to your child and all other children with practically zero impact on their freedom or happiness.

I can't find stats for deaths from measles but a doc quoted by the BBC said it's 1 in every 1000 cases

From the data collated in the US between 1987 and 2000, the frequency of measles attributable deaths was 0.3%.

On the basis that there have been at least 500 confirmed cases in South Wales (and that number is expected to rise), at least one family is going to experience the death of their child.

That death is going to be entirely preventable.

You can't reasonably expect your kids to grow up in a hermetically sealed box and yes they could get killed by a car tomorrow. But that argument is analogous to saying that there is not point in teaching your kids road sense because they might get leukemia.

You teach your kids road sense to reduce the risk of them getting killed on the road. You give your kids the MMR vaccine to reduce the risk of them dying from measles.