[Closed] Mark Duggan lawfully killed

surfer - Member
threatened to have my car taken away, because of my colour!'
Wow they actually said that?

nope thats what he said unless you want to change what ive written

5thelephant I lived in harringey for 4 years with a stupid haircut, never got searched once (even when I may have been carring drugs)

I wasnt actually aware that silly hair was a crime

wonder why they pulled over david lammy his hairs very short?
[url= http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/08/mark-duggan-inquest-serious-questions-police-relations ]

In April 2005 I was stopped by the police. It was not the first time. As a young black man, being stopped on the street becomes part of everyday life, but this time was by far the most unnerving. I was on my way home from a constituency event with my older brother – a magistrate – in his Audi, when we suddenly noticed an ominous grey police van right on our tail. Seconds later, a marked police car forced its way alongside.

We pulled over and were immediately surrounded by heavily armed Operation Trident officers, shouting at us not to move and to raise our hands. Hearts pounding and minds racing, we did as we were told. I quickly managed to convince them that I was the local MP. Immediately their manner changed. They apologised, gave a mumbled explanation about mistaken identity, and promptly left. For them, I expect the incident was quickly forgotten and probably laughed off. But I was left with the nagging thought that it would only have taken one wrong movement – one inadvertent raise of the arm – and there is a chance I would not be here today.

Honest opinion is that if you carry a gun on these shores without the legal right to do so you should be shot on scene unless you literally surrender immediately, any pissing about at all and that should seal the deal.

So summary execution, then? Nice.

Armed, clearly dangerous and not killed by the police. Incapacitated, and then given immediate first aid.

On these two - there was 360degrees clear vision/sight around. As could be seen from the footage.

Have the posters on here actually seen a Toyota Previa? Its a big vehicle and if you approach one from the corners/side to the sliding door (and from the otherside) you are never going to have a clear view to ensure YOUR and your colleagues safety.

I also don't think people here have experienced the real outside world beyond being burgulared or maybe bullied at school.

These officers have to deal with some real pondlife on a daily basis non-stop.

Junkyard

http://www.traumaregister.co.uk/Articles/critical_incident_amnesia.htm

5thelephant I lived in harringey for 4 years with a stupid haircut, never got searched once (even when I may have been carring drugs)

Hora, very valid point re the distinction. I suppose the point I was trying to illustrate is that it isn't always a case of 'killing' someone for armed police in the UK. I'm immensely glad that they're not only held to, but operate to, such high standards, and face such high levels of scrutiny every time a shot is fired, regardless of the outcome.

As someone mentioned earlier, far better that any police shooting incident results in an inquest and headlines, than being 'just another'.

So summary execution, then? Nice.

Ninfan Cheers and quite interesting.

Honest opinion is that if you carry a gun on these shores without the legal right to do so you should be shot on scene unless you literally surrender immediately, any pissing about at all and that should seal the deal.

You know this is a comic, right?
[img] [/img]

When the riots happened it brought it starkly to me just how grateful I am to the Police and just how much we take them for granted.

Absolute scum who would never work or want to work who take from society and then scream that its society against them if benefits are removed or questioned thought they could do what they wanted.

I for one, saw the riots (in part) as a positive reinforcement of what members of the Police do for us.

**** the rest of you.

What do you think Duggan was going to do with the illegal handgun he'd bought? Wait for a court verdict before he shot someone with it?

So you're suggesting that the state should summarily kill people to show that killing people is wrong?

So you're suggesting that the state should summarily kill people to show that killing people is wrong?

CaptainFlashheart...

Michael Adebolajo and Michael Adebowale

Armed, clearly dangerous and not killed by the police. Incapacitated, and then given immediate first aid.

It isn't always as black and white as some may wish to portray.

You're right - it's not always black and white. I'm not condemning the entire police force. There are lots of cops whose only intention is to make our lives safer and happier.

Being cynical, I'd also say that the fact members of the public were filming events may have tempered the response of the more zealous officers.

I'm not sure that I follow the first aid comment however - it's not a bonus not be murdered by the police or left to die in the street.

and the small matter the london wide riots following the police failure to communicate with the family

I don't really think that the riots were all down to Duggan's shooting and I'm pretty sure you don't either. Almost nobody who was interviewed said they were out there to redress the balance by burning down furniture shops etc, most just wanted to smash and rob.

Being cynical, I'd also say that the fact members of the public were filming events may have tempered the response of the more zealous officers.

So if they shoot someone they're violent racist murderers and if they don't they're being sneaky. Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

I would prefer it if people carrying guns were arrested and stood trial.

I'd prefer it if people just didn't carry guns.

rusty90...

The jury decided that he wasn't summarily killed. It does however highlight the risks of acquiring an illegal weapon - you may intend to kill someone else but end up dead yourself.

A jury also decided that Ian Tomlinson wasn't summarily killed. Didn't make that judgement correct either. Unless you're suggesting that Ian Tomlinson's killing highlighted the dangers of walking home from work? And if you walk home from work you can expect Police to murder you?

Getting on tube trains, while in possession of the wrong hue of skin, can also rightfully lead to being shot 8 times in the head at point blank range

kimbers - Member

surfer - Member
threatened to have my car taken away, because of my colour!'
Wow they actually said that?

nope thats what he said unless you want to change what ive written

So it may not necessarily be true then?

I'd prefer it if people just didn't carry guns.

So would I. That way, we'd avoid unarmed civilians being shot dead.

p8ddy, was more about the standards involved, especially when under intense pressure. I thought the way they handled that situation was exemplary, and should be held up as such.

[url= http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3974461.stm ]Caerful with those table legs![/url]

surfer - Member

So it may not necessarily be true then?

just like a Met police statement !!

CaptainFlashheart...

I agree - from reports, the police did handle it well. This should be standard practice though. Where Police fail to uphold those standards they should face the consequences.

Basically, I'm very wary of it becoming the norm to say 'Well done Police, you didn't execute anyone in the course of your duty!'

I would prefer it if people carrying guns were arrested and stood trial.

However, just shooting them on sight does save a small fortune in legal fees.....

Wont comment on the actual verdict as I dont know all the evidence - however

Why police stopped him in the first place?

Because he was known to be a very naughty boy, was known for carrying a gun, being part of a violent gang, and generally being a nasty piece of work. The car was stopped based on intelligence he was carrying a gun on him at that time.

IMO if Police have evidence that you use a gun, then fairplay that you can expect to get shot... unless of course you have turned up at a Police station and handed the gun over the day before.

Simple fact is that he would have never been shot if 1. He hadnt carried a gun. 2. Been part of a gang.

Simples really isnt it.

Binners...

Harry Stanley - Carrying a table leg whilst sounding Irish? He was asking for it.

I wonder how many times the initial police statement contained 'IRA' before they realised he was Scottish?

I felt a little of the fall out back in the riots that occured after the Duggan shooting. Just down the road where the Appt is is a notorously deprived area of London. We've never had any issues living here, none at all. Yet the riots brought out the bad and angst in folks, we saw cars burned, shops smashed and looted (only a few, but enough to bring it home) It was quite odd walking past a shop with the windows taken out and rubbish everywhere, quite odd. But the damage was caused to local people by local people, so really local people were damaging thier own environment around people they know, families they know.
Really bloody odd way to behave IMO.
As for the Duggan shooting, I'm with the Police. The guy should not have been carrying a gun, to carry a gun IMO means you are either under threat or are about to use threat, he had to opportunity to disarm (he did so) but the threat remained.
It is rather sad that the family have to keep fighting the justice system, the interviews shown on TV clearly showed a man covering his face and head yet supporting the Mother of Duggan, if you have nothing to hide then show your face...

This:

The overwhelming message I get from this is don't have an illegal firearm. All the rest is cobblers really. If you have a gun about your person it's just not going to end well is it?

This:

Mark Duggan is a victim of himself only. He has been arrested before and escaped justice probably through very good free legal advice. It is a classic example of someone who believes they somehow operate outside of consequential behaviour, that their actions do not impact upon themselves, if it does then it's not their fault. Mark Duggan refused to learn from his behaviour and pushed this to the maximum. I know if I was subjected to a hard stop by armed police with the commands of "don't move"' the last thing on my mind would be to jump out and flail my arms about getting rid of the evidence. He gambled, probably for the umpteenth time and lost. If he stayed put, got charged for possession of a firearm we know that he would be out after serving half of his sentence. He made this happen, no-one else.

This:

So the unasked question is: who would Mark Duggan have killed with HIS gun, if the police hadn't stopped him?

Possibly this:

And would there have been a riot if he did kill someone?

This:

but generally if you are stopped by armed police, moving very slowly and doing exactly what they say would be a good idea. So would not being involved in gang crime in London.

This:

What do you think Duggan was going to do with the illegal handgun he'd bought? Wait for a court verdict before he shot someone with it?

Sums things up quite well for me. Don't do bad things or it will end badly for you, and could end very badly if circumstances coincide.

All the rest is 'what if' and conjecture.

Here's another 'what if'. What if the police bullet had passed through Duggan and killed an innocent bystander by chance?

That would be Duggan's fault too - he was the reason that those police were there and were armed. No one else.

Here's a list of British police officers shot in the line of duty, not including those killed during The Troubles. How many of their names do you know, and how many of you are clamouring for justice over their deaths? Gunshot victims only, there's another 180 or so who died through other means, on the course of their normal duties -

Alger, Charles William Alger
Avis, William James Avis, DCM
Barnett, Edward Alexander Barnett, QPM
Barton, Andrew Barton
Baxter, Allan, Allan George Baxter
Bentley, Robert Bentley
Beshenivsky, Sharon Beshenivsky
Bishop, Brian John Bishop
Bone, Fiona Bone
Brereton, Roger Brereton
Broadhurst, Ian Nigel Broadhurst
Brown, Laurence, Laurence Peter Brown
Campbell, James Campbell
Carlton, Gavin Richard Carlton
Choat, Walter Charles Choat
Codling, Raymond Anthony Codling
Coward, Ian Coward, QPM
Crouch, William Frank Crouch
Davies, Evan, Evan Thomas Davies
Dawson, Brian Dawson
Dibell, Ian Dibell
Dunne, Patrick Dunne
Edgar, Nathanael Edgar
Fletcher, Yvonne Joyce Fletcher
Fox, Geoffrey Fox
Fraser, Duncan Alexander Fraser
Goodman, Glenn Thomas Goodman
Gibson, William Gibson
Gray, Richard Gray
Guthrie, Peter Charles Guthrie, QPM
Gutteridge, George William Gutteridge
Haigh, David Ian Haigh
Head, Christopher Head
Hughes, Nicola Hughes
Hutchins, Frederick George Hutchins, QPM
Jagger, Arthur Gordon Jagger
Johnston, Robert Johnston
Kelly, James Kelly
Kew, John William Kew
MacKenzie, Angus MacLeod MacKenzie, QPM
Macleod, John Macleod
Mason, Francis John Mason, QGM
Miles, Sidney George Miles, KPM
Mussell, George Bertram Mussell, KPM
Olds, Philip Michael Olds, QGM
O'Donnell, James O'Donnell, QPM
Pawsey, Philip Pawsey, QPM
Porter, James Brian Porter
Pritchard, Robert Pritchard
Purdy, Raymond William Purdy
Richardson, Gerry Irving Richardson, GC
Russell, George, George William Russell, QPM
Schofield, John Schofield
Shiell, William Ralph Shiell
Smith, Dennis, Dennis Arthur Smith, QPM
Speed, John Richard Speed
Straughan, Matthew Walls Straughan
Taylor, Barry, Barry John Taylor
Thomson, Robert C. Thomson, MBE
Tibble, Stephen Andrew Tibble, QPM
Tucker, Charles Tucker
Tyler, William Frederick Tyler
Walls, Arthur Walls
Walters, Phillip John Walters
Willis, Francis James Willis
Willits, Albert Willits
Winter, David Thomas Winter
Wilkinson, William Adiel Wilkinson
Wombwell, David Wombwell
Woodward, Ian Weir Woodward
Young, Alfred Young, KPM

Does this excuse incidents like those that caused the unlawful deaths of Jean Charles De Menezes or Ian Tomlinson? No, of course it doesn't, nothing does. But for those who think those incidents give them carte blanche to label everything the police does as corrupt or self-serving or bigoted, I've got to say up yours, because those people you're giving sh!t to are out there day and night, risking (and sometimes paying with) theirs lives to protect you from the likes of a Mark Duggan, a Michael Adebolajo or a Michael Adebowale.

Sums things up quite well for me. Don't do bad things or it will end badly for you, and could end very badly if circumstances coincide.

So again, you're advocating summary execution?

Could you explain what de Menezes and Tomlinson did wrong?

bikebouy - Member
the interviews shown on TV clearly showed a man covering his face and head yet supporting the Mother of Duggan, if you have nothing to hide then show your face...

because the Met evan have a rep for coming after the families of genuinely innocent murder victims

[url= http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/jun/23/stephen-lawrence-undercover-police-smears ]http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/jun/23/stephen-lawrence-undercover-police-smears[/url]

if you have nothing to hide then show your face..

Yep. Given the frankly marvellous state of relations between the met and the local community, Its absolutely inconceivable that there would be any consequences or repercussions for you being recognised protesting against the police

De Menezes jumped a barrier at Stockwell tube and sprinted down to the platforms and had visible wires protruding from his jacket from a music player. It was at a time of heightened anxiety over bombings on public transport. Did he deserve to die because of these actions? Of course not. Did his actions contribute to the perceived threat he presented? Quite considerably. The people really to blame for this, of course, are the nutters who blew themselves up on 7/7/05.

Ian Tomlinson was very unlucky. He went along for a bit of a 'look-see' at some riots. I would not have made a beeline for any likely riots as I would be wary of being caught up in something involving a large crowd not acting rationally. He was not summarily executed, though. His death was a by-product of what was probably assault, aggravated by unknown health issues.

If people didn't do bad things then innocent people wouldn't get dragged in either would they?

De Menezes jumped a barrier at Stockwell tube and sprinted down to the platforms and had visible wires protruding from his jacket from a music player

He didn't jump the barrier that was police misinformation, and it clearly works as some still believe it despite the many many times it has been exposed as a complete lie.

[i]Menezes entered the Tube station at about 10:00am, stopping to pick up a free newspaper. He used his Oyster card to pay the fare, walked through the barriers, and descended the escalator slowly. He then ran across the platform to board the newly arrived train. Menezes boarded the train and found one of the first available seats.[/i]

Fair enough - I didn't know that.

Still ultimately down to the actions of the 7/7 bombers though.

De Menezes jumped a barrier at Stockwell tube and sprinted down to the platforms and had visible wires protruding from his jacket from a music player.

No he didn't. That just what the police initially said to try and cover their arses! It all turned out to be lies. As verified in court by independent witnesses.

What they said happened to Ian Tomlinson was a pack of lies too, as disproved by independent video evidence

Can you see a pattern emerging here?

Still ultimately down to the actions of the 7/7 bombers though.

Christ on a bendybus. Whats it like, being you? Is that some quantum karmic thing? Butterflies wings and earthquakes in China type stuff?

pondo - Member
Here's a list of British police officers shot in the line of duty, not including those killed during The Troubles. How many of their names do you know, and how many of you are clamouring for justice over their deaths? Gunshot victims only, there's another 180 or so who died through other means, on the course of their normal duties -

Alger, Charles William Alger
Avis, William James Avis, DCM
Barnett, Edward Alexander Barnett, QPM
Barton, Andrew Barton
Baxter, Allan, Allan George Baxter
Bentley, Robert Bentley
Beshenivsky, Sharon Beshenivsky
Bishop, Brian John Bishop
Bone, Fiona Bone
Brereton, Roger Brereton
Broadhurst, Ian Nigel Broadhurst
Brown, Laurence, Laurence Peter Brown
Campbell, James Campbell
Carlton, Gavin Richard Carlton
Choat, Walter Charles Choat
Codling, Raymond Anthony Codling
Coward, Ian Coward, QPM
Crouch, William Frank Crouch
Davies, Evan, Evan Thomas Davies
Dawson, Brian Dawson
Dibell, Ian Dibell
Dunne, Patrick Dunne
Edgar, Nathanael Edgar
Fletcher, Yvonne Joyce Fletcher
Fox, Geoffrey Fox
Fraser, Duncan Alexander Fraser
Goodman, Glenn Thomas Goodman
Gibson, William Gibson
Gray, Richard Gray
Guthrie, Peter Charles Guthrie, QPM
Gutteridge, George William Gutteridge
Haigh, David Ian Haigh
Head, Christopher Head
Hughes, Nicola Hughes
Hutchins, Frederick George Hutchins, QPM
Jagger, Arthur Gordon Jagger
Johnston, Robert Johnston
Kelly, James Kelly
Kew, John William Kew
MacKenzie, Angus MacLeod MacKenzie, QPM
Macleod, John Macleod
Mason, Francis John Mason, QGM
Miles, Sidney George Miles, KPM
Mussell, George Bertram Mussell, KPM
Olds, Philip Michael Olds, QGM
O'Donnell, James O'Donnell, QPM
Pawsey, Philip Pawsey, QPM
Porter, James Brian Porter
Pritchard, Robert Pritchard
Purdy, Raymond William Purdy
Richardson, Gerry Irving Richardson, GC
Russell, George, George William Russell, QPM
Schofield, John Schofield
Shiell, William Ralph Shiell
Smith, Dennis, Dennis Arthur Smith, QPM
Speed, John Richard Speed
Straughan, Matthew Walls Straughan
Taylor, Barry, Barry John Taylor
Thomson, Robert C. Thomson, MBE
Tibble, Stephen Andrew Tibble, QPM
Tucker, Charles Tucker
Tyler, William Frederick Tyler
Walls, Arthur Walls
Walters, Phillip John Walters
Willis, Francis James Willis
Willits, Albert Willits
Winter, David Thomas Winter
Wilkinson, William Adiel Wilkinson
Wombwell, David Wombwell
Woodward, Ian Weir Woodward
Young, Alfred Young, KPM

Does this excuse incidents like those that caused the unlawful deaths of Jean Charles De Menezes or Ian Tomlinson? No, of course it doesn't, nothing does. But for those who think those incidents give them carte blanche to label everything the police does as corrupt or self-serving or bigoted, I've got to say up yours, because those people you're giving sh!t to are out there day and night, risking (and sometimes paying with) theirs lives to protect you from the likes of a Mark Duggan, a Michael Adebolajo or a Michael Adebowale.

Good post.

Take into account the officer who was shot in the face by Raoul Moat and lived....there are others like him who dont make the list above because they didnt die in the line of duty but have been horribly disabled by scum with guns.

I used to want to join the Police but after 14 years as a Paramedic and having seen their job up close its not something i would consider now.

They deal with an underclass who operate with a different set of morals to the rest of us, for a huge amount of their clientele there is a massive amount of kudos seen in resisting the Police when asked to do something....even something reasonable like 'please stop swearing and go home' can and does result in a confrontation and then the scum scream foul when the end result is an arrest and a night in the cells.

Basically when the Police identify themselves and issue an instruction you should comply, the hows-whys-and wherefores can be sorted out later, unfortunately these idiots try to resist, argue the toss at the time and wonder why the Police resort to force....

....if you thought Duggan had a gun and you told him to raise his hands and put himself on the floor (a reasonable request) and instead he ignored this instruction and started to turn towards you, what would you do?....

This is the kind of split second decision making the armed officers make, i dont envy them.
I would always prioritise my own safety too.

He had a gun but threw it away, could the officers be sure of that?....what if he had a second gun?....like i said, horrible situation for all concerned but as others have said; dont carry a gun and if the Police stop you try to be polite and comply with their instructions, playing billy-big-bollocks when armed officers are pointing a gun at you is not the time or place.

An idiot took himself out of the gene pool is how i view this incident.

dannyh nicely illustrates the power of the Police spreading misinformation, its been widely reported that demenezes didnt jump the barrier for years now, yet the myth persits

David Rathband R.I.P.

Mendez- yes remember the bombings? Binners in Hollywood movies the good guys never shoot an innocent by accident in the heat of the moment.

In real life, sadly it does happen.

If the people protecting us make the odd mistake in difficult circumstances then I for one, am prepared to accept this.

Its hardly Brazil and its death squads ffs.

Christ on a bendybus. Whats it like, being you? Is that some quantum karmic thing? Butterflies wings and earthquakes in China type stuff?

It's quite easy being me, because I stick to the rules (mostly), certainly stick to rules that would wind up with me being hurt or killed, and try to stay away from people who don't.

Are you seriously suggesting that fifty odd people being blown to smithereens on publich transport has no causal link to the De Menezes case?

In that case, I think you might be deluding yourself......

It's quite easy being me, because I stick to the rules (mostly), certainly stick to rules that would wind up with me being hurt or killed, and try to stay away from people who don't.

So did De Menezes.

If the people protecting us make the odd mistake in difficult circumstances then I for one, am prepared to accept this.

I think many of us would be more accepting of it if the perpetrators weren't quite so keen on covering it up.

Did the Jury/inquest use the word cover up or are you a plastic-anarchist who has taken recreational drugs in your life? 😉

So did De Menezes.

Yes, and it is a crying shame that what happened did.

If there hadn't been a heightened state of tension owing to the 7/7 attacks it probably wouldn't have happened.

Police lying (I am reliably informed by my fellow posters) is not acceptable, even if a cock-up has resulted in the death of someone. That's a bad thing too. And you know what - that also contributes to some of the attitudes towards police.

You see, it is always a minority spoiling it for a majority.

[img] https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTYo2LmIBvF72pTfiHo5Ck_8sHsZxpUQp4qRPlHF0nJ6Cr47nOEyQ [/img]