Ah yes the usual :- “I won’t/can’t/don’t do anything until big industries and governments” start acting. These are the words I get every time a little hint is dropped to people who don’t care.
But it's the absolute truth. Only governments can change industrial policy to use carbon free technologies and energy sources. Only governments can provide the money to enable energy suppliers to transition from fossil fuels to renewables. Only goverments can create the policy which forces or encourages populations to do stuff that uses less carbon. For every well meaning green hippy type (and I count myself as one) there's a hundred people who don't think twice about buying the latest SUV or flying to New York for a weekend away. What you do personally makes no difference, what governments do makes a massive difference. And the more you guilt-trip people into feeling bad about what they're not doing the more they will react against it and behave the opposite way you want them to. This is pretty basic stuff.
Eat less dead animals. Its gross anyway.
I’ve watched enough David Attenborough to know that most carnivores in the wild eat animals whilst they are still alive. We are quite civilised by killing it first
Regarding electric cars; lifecycle assessments on the whole agree that they are far better, 89% less CO2 according to this study for example
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1364032122000867
"For example, the additional production emissions of a Tesla Model 3 Standard Plus approximately correspond to the driving emissions of a Volkwagen Passat 2.0 TSI after 18 000 km"
So a Tesla charged off solar panels would be carbon free compared to a Passat after only 1 year of some people's use
Especially during the winter, the oven door is left ajar after use to warm the kitchen/flat.
A marginal gain that literally does nothing to help. The oven will warm your flat whether the door is open or not.
Is it a marginal gain if it negatively impacts quality of life (as many of the suggestions above seem to imply)?
When driving in winter make sure if you've got the heating on to keep the windows closed. This will keep the warm air inside helping to prevent global warming.
I run old cars (newest is 19years old) and keep spannering them to last as long as possible (I'm a tight arse as well as see the embedded energy in their production).
I litter pick most days. Unfortunately I don't have capacity to recycle the litter streams but I'm picking up an awful lot of single use plastics.
https://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/spring-clean/
Some things I do as a matter of course...
Towels get at least a couple of uses
Shower when I need a shower, not just because it's routine
Recycling to a reasonable degree
One child
Hardly eat any meat - eat no processed meat. Do eat a fair amount of chicken and fish though
Cycle to the shops or gym (when convenient, not all the time)
However, I'm not going to make any excuses or apologies for the things I don't do
If it's cold, the heating is on - we have Devon Rex cats who don't like being cold either
If you think you don't need deodorant, you are probably wrong
Not seen enough of the world - didn't go abroad as a child and still only been abroad 5 times at 52yo. If I want a holiday, I'm getting on a plane.
Balls to using hard soap
Unless I fold my business, driving is a necessity - and a diesel suits my needs. I briefly considered an EV, but for now it wouldn't be suitable
I've lived in the '70's once, I'm not regressing my lifestyle to mimic that again thanks
The OP has asked what marginal gains to save the planet.
As usual people go off on the 'big' companies, countries etc. Yes we know climate change is not going to alter much without these huge corporate conglomerates doing something. However the OP has asked for the little, wee, things that we (that's every single Tom, Dick and Harriet) can do to make a tiny difference, which when we ALL do it, will make a difference.
Oh and stop buying or using wet wipes (they sell the reusable type in our local 'green, refill' shop).
Buy fruit, veg and salads from a market stall/farmer's market/honesty box stall, where there will be virtually no packaging. Take own tupperware containers to the butcher/fish monger.
Turn off all appliances where possible when not in use. We never have our kettle/toaster/microwave left on.
Iron when there is a big pile.
Batch cook using a slow cooker.
Take own tupperware containers to the butcher/fish monger.
I rest my case. 🙄
Iron when there is a big pile
What's an iron? 😉
I’ve lived in the ’70’s once, I’m not regressing my lifestyle to mimic that again thanks
What you do personally makes no difference, what governments do makes a massive difference. And the more you guilt-trip people into feeling bad about what they’re not doing the more they will react against it and behave the opposite way you want them to. This is pretty basic stuff.
Pretty basically wrong. ( see change in attitudes to loads of stuff in the past 50 years - ;like smoking and drink driving for example) The answer is we all need to do everything and also so do governments - governments respond to pressure from the population. Every gram me of carbon saved makes a differnce
Two examples of " I'm alright jack, I don't want to help, sod 'em let 'em die"
This is why mega death is coming in yours or your childrens lifetime. attitudes like this
Towels get at least a couple of uses
A couple of uses? You mean you wash your towels every other day? I'm either a complete minger, or that's mental. Our towels get washed once a week at best, and amazingly we're not covered in festering sores.
they sell the reusable type in our local ‘green, refill’ shop
Isn't a reusable wet wipe also know as a cloth? But yeah, unless you're wiping a babies bum, there's never (or at least very very very rarely) a reason for a wet-wipe. Or kitchen paper/roll, for that matter,
No-one scraps recent cars with faults. They sell them, to people who fix them.
The fundamental problem with car buying is the people who buy new cars and condemn fixable old ones to the scrap heap. That said, moving to EVs is a massive emissions saver so if we had to wait 40 years for old car stock to diminish that decarbonisation would take even longer.
Cars are an odd one in this discussion. Whether its because they are high cost, or regulated, or just large objects, they get rehomed much more than anything else.
Because I'm a sad bastard, I just checked all my previous cars. I know I'm younger than some of you lot so have a less extensive history and can still remember all the number plates.
First car (1996) I owned was still MOT'ed until Feb of this year, curently SORNed.
Second car (2001) after I part-exed it for £200, on 121000 miles it never got another MOT. As garages usually give old cars a fresh MOT to sell them, this one may have gone to the knackers yard. could I have kept this going for longer myself maybe?
Third car (2013) still going at 130000+ miles. I bought it a new clutch master cylinder before selling it. It otherwise worked fine.
current car (2020) on about 30000 miles.
What you do personally makes no difference, what governments do makes a massive difference. And the more you guilt-trip people into feeling bad
Genuine question - do you feel the same way about e.g. Boycott Divest Sanctions movements? It seems many people argue both that consumer behaviour is useful in shifting public positions on Israel, South Africa (back when) et al, but not useful for shifting public positions on oil use etc.
Personally, I'm inclined to think that changing consumer behaviour is all we really have, and if we wait for governments to lead then we'll all boil to death sooner rather than later.
A couple of uses? You mean you wash your towels every other day? I’m either a complete minger, or that’s mental. Our towels get washed once a week at best, and amazingly we’re not covered in festering sores.
I don't count and said 'at least'
There are usually a couple of towels on rotation between two of us, who as I've said, don't shower by default every day. Basically if a towel seems like it needs washing, it gets washed, if not, it's hung back on the (non heated) towel rail.
Out of interest - who out of the totally virtuous ones will refuse to go out on the bike when it's muddy - so that they don't have to wash their bike clothes?
My bike clothes need washing whether it's muddy or not.
Materialistic consumerism is not the enemy here, in truth I think it’s the only realistic long term solution.
The only solution is to create an economy based more on non-materialistic goods and services. So for example, instead of buying your kid a pile of toys, do something like riding lessons or a day out that doesn't result in the creation of a physical object from resources. (Kids do of course need some toys before you accuse me of being a miserable git, but it's a lot fewer than you'd think).
Genuine question – do you feel the same way about e.g. Boycott Divest Sanctions movements?
No I think everyone should put all the pressure they can on governments and corporations to tackle the problem because they are the only ones who can take action at the scale required. What I'm getting at is that many of the frankly laughable things that have been mentioned on this thread are no substitute for political action and voting in the correct way. Much of it is just virtue signalling nonsense designed to make people feel like they're doing something. Some of it - like not having kids - would be extremely destructive. The answer to this problem is in politics and economics exercised at macro levels, not in fiddling round the edges of consumer behaviour or lifestyles.
The only solution is to create an economy based more on non-materialistic goods and services.
Agreed - I always find it odd, the strange tension between these green-leaning businesses that, to their credit, are doing things better than many, but still need to exhort us to BUY MORE of their stuff so they can survive.
But really, I think the biggest thing for most people is holidays. And I also think that's the last thing anyone will give up. And all this worrying about deodorant or towels is just a sop to people's consciences.
I like to think I'm greener than average - but I still take a flight every other year or so. All my walking to Tesco and using the packaging-free shop is just tinkering at the edges.
An old classic!
https://twitter.com/vizcomic/status/1801535548106158138
edit - not sure why twitter links sometimes embed and sometimes don't. Hey ho
Agreed – I always find it odd, the strange tension between these green-leaning businesses that, to their credit, are doing things better than many, but still need to exhort us to BUY MORE of their stuff so they can survive
thats the difference between dark and light green. Light green can be consumerist, dark green is not. Light green buys ecover fabric cojnditioner, dark green does not use fabric conditioner etc etc
Molgrips, As ugly and inefficient as the current consumerist economy is, it is still the only option in town, you can't just shut down the tat factories without consequence. If we all suddenly cut back on tat, what happens to all the labourers at the bottom of the chain? That income is a potential education for a child, that education brings a more sustainable world.. The world economy has to work for 8 billion people not just the lucky few.
We need to keep pushing for greener production. it's realistically achievable and in progress, don't give stuff up, buy the most ethical and environmentally friendly version you can afford. Share your wealth don't hoard it.
Spend it locally on stuff with low environmental penalty. Local beer and food for example.
Unfortunately we've already gone past the tipping point, we need some massive technological break-through to deal with the mess we've created - slowing down our destruction is very ineffective at this point. Stuff like tree planting is only a short term measure until (hopefully) that technology comes along that allows us to manipulate our climate quickly and positively, otherwise all those living trees just turn into dead trees and release the CO2 back as they decompose.
Don't worry, I'm still "doing my bit" and pretending it makes a difference but we shouldn't kid ourselves anything we (or governments/businesses) can do at this point is going to be enough to halt (let alone reverse) global warming.
Molgrips, As ugly and inefficient as the current consumerist economy is, it is still the only option in town, you can’t just shut down the tat factories without consequence.
I'm well aware of this. That's why I think the only solution is going to be technological, which means we can still go ahead and produce things but they will be made from renewable sources and low carbon energy. To do that we need new technology. The only other option is actual communism where everyone's activities are centrally managed and no-one gets paid you just get food and board.
If you want to have a life with choices and opportunities of fulfilment, then you need to be able to travel, buy things (yes, things, to allow you to explore your interests e.g. bikes, musical instruments, books etc) and pay for services that have incurred resource costs to supply. The only solution is to make those things genuinely sustainable. I don't just mean using bioplastics and solar panels, I mean properly sustainable in the long long term right down to the roots.
Light green can be consumerist, dark green is not. Light green buys ecover fabric cojnditioner, dark green does not use fabric conditioner etc etc
I'd say dark green has to go much further than that. Never travel anywhere, don't buy anything etc. Not buying fabric conditioner just makes you a microscopically darker shade. I don't, by the way 🙂
Meanwhile ...
Molgrips. That was just an example. Never travel is saft. You travel in the least damaging way and as infrequently as possible. Of course you have to buy stuff to live. Just do so locally and in the least damaging way.
Dark green is a lived philosophy. Light green is a bolt on to your existing life
You travel in the least damaging way and as infrequently as possible. Of course you have to buy stuff to live. Just do so locally and in the least damaging way.
You're saying the same thing. 'As little as possible' has no clear definition, just like the 'least damaging' way possible. Every single one of us makes a choice on how 'green' we can go before it starts to require too many sacrifices. Even your 'dark green' lifestyle is far more environmentally damaging than a great many people outside the developed world.
Biggest thing an individual can do is go vegan. That makes the most difference, for both the environment and wellbeing of animals. Modern meat production has no historical precedents in its cruelty and disconnection from anything natural for the animals forced to live their conscious existence within that machinery.
I went vegetarian in 1996, and completely vegan in the 2000s. To me the direction our world is headed in was completely clear already back then, even more so today - today I don't really have too much hope that our civilization is going to make it without a disastrous collapse of some kind in my lifetime. And I studied forest and mire ecology at university level - I have a very good understanding of the ecological disaster we are in the middle of causing - before becoming a professional bike mechanic.
I also last owned a car in 2004. Used an airplane once in the last 15 years. We travel by train, or by bicycle and on foot.
Don't make children either. I would not want to watch my children grow up inheriting this mess. I have personally never wanted kids anyway - I have nothing against kids and I have worked at childrens daycare when I was younger - there are just too many people consuming too much. Luckily my spouse shares this view and it was discussed when we originally met.
We also consume as little as possible, the goods we do buy are clothes and bicycle equipment - and I always try to buy the most durable, ecologically best gear possible - and manufactured in good labour conditions which means nothing made in China or preferably anywhere in Asia. I always select the manufacturer that does not chase easy profits over true quality.
There is no furniture in our apartment that would have been bought as new. Everything is inherited, or from recycling, or thrown away and repaired. Same with plates, cups, utensils and everything - inherited from dead relatives. Only thing bought new is the steel frying pan and a few camping pots and pans.
Food wise, buy everything possible local. The closer, the better as it supports the local economy, and transit emissions are smaller.
I feel really hopeless much of the time, but my conscience would not let me do anything but my best according to what I can do. While all around people seem to be blithely unaware of anything being wrong, or actively saying that its all a conspiracy or some utter shit.
Unfortunately we’ve already gone past the tipping point, we need some massive technological break-through to deal with the mess we’ve created – slowing down our destruction is very ineffective at this point. Stuff like tree planting is only a short term measure until (hopefully) that technology comes along that allows us to manipulate our climate quickly and positively, otherwise all those living trees just turn into dead trees and release the CO2 back as they decompose.
Don’t worry, I’m still “doing my bit” and pretending it makes a difference but we shouldn’t kid ourselves anything we (or governments/businesses) can do at this point is going to be enough to halt (let alone reverse) global warming.
Yup. Without something miraculous happening in geopolitics and technology, not to mention an enormous, rapid shift in the lifestyle of the developed world, it's all pissing in the wind at this point. I'll do my best to add my own tiny bit of piss into that effort, but I know that its in vain.
How many maginal gains will it take to cancel out our return flights to California next year? On the plus side we aren't flying anywhere this year.
In the big picture though anyone who regularly flies is kidding themselves if they think sticking a bit less water in the kettle is going to matter.
Tj, we have created a world economy that relies on the flow of money from the wealthy to the poor. If wealthy countries encourage their wealthy inhabitants to keep all the wealth to themselves then what happens to the poor? We cannot restrict that flow without severe consequences for many. If buying locally works for you, great, but if we encourage everyone to do so then the world economy collapses which will mean a radical shift in your local purchase power.
A few people have mentioned packaging, the packaging industry is worth hundreds of billions.. that puts food on the table for a lot of people. We need to improve and or replace NOT remove. Reduction will just slow the progress
The marginal gains aim is to buy as much or more tat than last year while reducing your carbon footprint 👍
How many maginal gains will it take to cancel out our return flights to California next year?
I suspect several years of my below average CO2 to regain what was lost by flying to the Yukon 😉 A few years average car usage?
Modern meat production has no historical precedents in its cruelty and disconnection from anything natural for the animals forced to live their conscious existence within that machinery.
Much of it, but not all. I can buy lamb that has been raised on a hillside behind my house. Next time you're in Wales look how many sheep are wandering around the hills and how many you see crammed in barns.
If wealthy countries encourage their wealthy inhabitants to keep all the wealth to themselves then what happens to the poor?
They will spend it somehow and / or we take that wealth off them. Use the same resources but spread it around. 🙂
Reduction will just slow the progress
Exactly! This is what is needed. We need to reduce consumption particularly of energy. We have plenty of food and stuff and energy for the worlds population if we share it around.
How many maginal gains will it take to cancel out our return flights to California next year? On the plus side we aren’t flying anywhere this year.
Not flying has been one of my main reductions. I've not been on a plane for 6 years - and that was Glasgow to Barra 😂. However, Mrs S doesn't feel the same and we'll be flying to France this summer. TBH I looked very seriously at the alternative travel options but couldn't square the additional cost and time required. We're off to visit friends there so it's not like a destination pulled out of a hat either.
You flew about 2x4000 miles, TJ. So very roughly just an average year of car use rather than several in terms of CO2. You have no descendants to worry about so any efforts you do make is pure philanthropy.
Every time these threads come up people turn it into threads about themselves and how wonderfully eco they are.
Oh, I know I'm not really making much effort but then I see other folk who don't give a shit and sometimes wonder why I bother at all.
On the other hand, reading what folk on here are doing makes me reconsider and is good for ideas. It's important it shouldn't be a pissing contest though.
we have created a world economy that relies on the flow of money from the wealthy to the poor.
What parellel universe is this you speak of? The one I inhabit works the other way round.
The only thing I could do to make a difference is insulation in my house and solar panels but it’s not my house (housing association) and I don’t have the money to do it so I’ll continue to burn coal/wood - usually get through 4 bags/week if cold in winter and 2 bags logs as stove is never off, in summer it’s far less. The air source heat pump has been switched off for 3 years along with the Tesla battery as the ashp cost an absolute fortune to run but I live alone so it’s easy enough to cope without hot water as I have an electric shower.
Solar panels/insulation under the floor, attic, walls (as there’s none anywhere) and replace the knackered 40yr old double glazing windows and I’d be a happy toasty bunny.
Been vegi for 35 years, had 8 flights in my life/last in 2001, do 150 miles a month in car for mum to get my shopping/take a mate for her shopping.
Don’t buy clothing/other shite etc, last purchase was Aldi joggers 2 years ago so can’t do much else.
Every time these threads come up people turn it into threads about themselves and how wonderfully eco they are.
Apart from the people who want to shit on it and inform everyone about how pointless attempting to be green is.
I don't care if it's pointless. I'd rather feel like I'm making some tiny insignificant contribution to the world being a better place than the alternative.
The thing is that this
Every time these threads come up people turn it into threads about themselves and how wonderfully eco they are.
And this
I don’t care if it’s pointless. I’d rather feel like I’m making some tiny insignificant contribution to the world being a better place than the alternative.
are equally valid.
There are three types of people (massive generalisation alert)
1 People who say there isn't a problem
2 People who say there is a problem, but it's too big a problem for individuals to be able to fix.
3 People who say there is a problem, and if individuals do all they can individually, it can be fixed.
Both 1 and 3 are, I think, deluded. I get that that if you fall into 2 or 3 you may wish to do all, or as much as you feel able or bothered to, do to minimise the problem, but as a firm believer in 2 who's doing what he can, all we're really doing is making ourselves feel less guilty (because unless we're going to time travel back and live before the industrial revolution, we're guilty)
The problem is systemic, and cannot be solved by any easy means.
Largest part of the problem is that our planet-wide economic system is based on the idea of permanent growth as a necessary part to keep the system running. Endless growth in a limited planetary ecosystem - that is the logic of a cancerous growth.
A cancer will kill the host, as it does not care about anything but continuing growth and amassing imaginary wealth.
The only true wealth on this planet are the ecosystems providing livable conditions. The only net producers are plants and photosynthetic algae - they provide life for everything else (somewhat simplified).
At present our whole economic system is wholly disconnected from this basic reality, and we act like we can simply take whatever we happen to want, without any consideration of what it is doing to the web of life that we are but a part of. This is a simple but unescapable fact, and any solution that does not start from this fact is doomed to fail. We should be thinking of "how can we improve survival of all life" - instead we have treated "nature" only as a resource to be tamed, conquered and exploited - for a few thousand years now.
It basically started with agriculture, and this system has been spreading since then - until the empire now encompasses the whole planet, and is running against hard limits that cannot be denied anymore. It did not start with industrial revolution, it goes much further back than that, but the industrialisation and hydrocarbon use simply pushed this into exponential acceleration.
http://www.rainbowbody.net/Finalempire/index.html This book is a very concise treatment of this whole subject, if anyone happens to be so inclined.
Current problems regarding the overproduction of meat, sugar, salt, alcohol, cars, pharmaceuticals, etc are due to the govts attempt to channel revenue in preparation for the next big thing.
Whats the next big thing?
Space/ the moon.
The big money will be in the manufacture of pharmaceuticals and artificial hips, etc, in zero gravity environments.
But you need a significant investment to achieve escape velocity.
So your supermarkets and utility companies are trying to skim as much cash out of you as possible.
The sheer quantity of meat, they’re trying to foist on us is quite staggering.
It would have been simpler just to offer ‘space bonds’.
Likewise, you could argue that the whole covid debacle was an attempt to see if we could manufacture and deploy antivirals sufficiently quickly enough to counter anything that’s been harbouring in the moons rocks for the past billion years.
The best environmental strategy at the moment would be to petition the govt to legalise the use of cannabis.
Widespread use would make it easier for the public to change their current bad habits.
I guess that the good news is that, globally, they’ll release the chokehold on the environment in favour of astronomical financial returns from near-earth industries.
