[Closed] Manctopia

Yes, I know Tim heatley the property developer as I went to law school with him. He's a really good guy but even at 21 was a bit of a flash Harry (had a lotus Elise). I stopped watching after first episode though. What's that Morrissey song? "We hate it when our friends become successful"

Sorry for ignoring all your intelligent points for some meaningless jealous back story

Gonna watch this as I find that sort of thing fascinating. Seems the opposite of Sheffield which seems to be all about the family but again probably the inevitable emphasis on the middle-class. Leeds I'm not sure about.

It's interesting isn't it and god only knows what's going to happen in the new Covid world that we all inhabit. If I was a city centre developer right now (residential or commercial) I'd be more than a little bit nervous right now. As far as I know the south end of Deansgate was designated for the high rises, with Ancoats to the North East of the city centre being where they are developing more houses and family based accommodation. Could be wrong though. Check out this website - www.placenorthwest.co.uk - it's for the property community. Lots of stories (and btl debates) about what's happening in Manchester

It was fascinating, well worth a watch.

As someone who fervently believes that a lot of society's problems would be helped by the building of a lot of good quality, affordable social housing, I was shouting at the telly quite a lot.

I lived in Manchester for many many years. I came away with the impression that Manchester Council should stop all the overtly gesturing slogans about homelessness and put in some proper protections to ensure that a) Those offering community support service are not so easily usurped when the developers turn up and b) Existing residents are properly protected not just shifted further and further out.

Yes its great to redevelop where there once was rubble but not bulldoze over where proper communities exist.

It’s been utterly depressing viewing. There’s so much construction yet absolutely none of it is affordable housing for people to actually live in

90% of all housing is bought ‘off-plan’ by (mostly oversees) investors. A lot of that will just sit empty.

I was working in town, pre-Covid and a walk across the City Centre at 7.30 in the morning is a truly dispiriting experience

Chrome and glass towers going up everywhere, yet the homeless are sat with their sleeping bags in every single available doorway.

What kind of ****ed up set of priorities is that? There are nearly 100,000 people on the waiting list for social housing in Manchester and they’re building penthouses

As someone who fervently believes that a lot of society’s problems would be helped by the building of a lot of good quality, affordable social housing, I was shouting at the telly quite a lot.

The flipside of that is YUPPIES with some cash have to live somewhere too. Not everyone thinks or wants "bigger is better" housing. If someone in their 20's/30's wants to live in a city center apartment no amount of aspirational "executive homes" on the outskirts will change the fact they value being in the city center. And simple capitalism means whoevers prepared to pay the most get's to live in the most desirable places.

'spoon - 30 something that bitterly resents living in commuter belt hell in a house that's too big and takes up a sizeable chunk of his week doing the cleaning and DIY let alone commuting. But I do like having a garden and a shed. Even if now that I have a garden all my friends live too far away to pop round for a BBQ because we all live in different areas rather than in the city center.........

Lived and/or worked in manc since '93. Back then it was a crumbling wreck, but it had a strange post-industrial allure and genuine atmosphere. Now almost everything about it is fake, from the empty glass towerblocks Binners refers to, to the hipster bars and glitzy shopping precincts. I moved away 7 years ago and thankfully due to covid I no longer have to go there for work. I don't miss the place one bit.

I am not sure how good quality affordable housing in any way creates a problem for yuppies, they just spend less of their disposable income on housing and more on beard grooming products. In fact just like everyone else, they would be less trapped by their housing choices should they decide that they want a change.

Some of the development of Hulme and Moss Side during the 90's was excellent. A good balance between private and rented with plenty of good quality social housing. The council had destroyed the communities there during the 60's and 70's, moving all the residents out to sink estates like Withenshaw etc. With the 90's redevelopment they managed to build on the communities that had developed during the wasteland years of the 80's. The 'Homes for Change' development in Hulme being the best example.

Since the millennium the council has sold the City out to developers and speculators. I'd hoped that the success that had been achieved in South Manchester during the 90s would be replicated elsewhere in the City but I was sadly mistaken.

That woman from Collyhurst who looked over at the City skyline and bemoaned, "what has become of Manchester? it just looks like Hong Kong" was being too generous, a third rate Chinese provinvial city would be a more apt descruption.

I lost faith in MCC after they let the Oxford Rd Odeon get demolished. I appreciate that glass and metal is probably cheaper to build but dear god try and think of a more imaginative way of developing the city. I got the impression there were people oj the show that were a bit Emperor's new clothing about the fantastic views and things to do. "Oh wow check out the post industrial sprawls of Manchester and Salford. So beautiful. Just like Manhatten." Fair enough there are hills in the distance but its not the most beautiful city. Someone in the latest show was banging on about all the museums and restaurants on your doorstep. Fair enough restaurants but museums? MOSI, National Football Museum, that old library on Deansgate I guess?

Edit facepalm: Manchester museum on Oxford Rd if its still going.

You’ve got to wonder what the city is going to look like in a few years.

As well as the fact that all these glass towers have absolutely zero architectural merit, and are dwarfing the traditional buildings in their shadows, there’s also how they’re being built. Ie: thrown up in five minutes by profit-hungry developers, happy to cut corners.

A lot of these supposed ‘luxury’ developments, that have only been up for a few years, are looking pretty rough around the edges already. I can see some of them faring no better than the tower blocks of the 60’s.

Loads of my colleagues have flats in town, from in Hulme, Castlefield and near Victoria. £1000 a month rent for a one bed flat in Hulme - WTF is that about ? Never mind the £8k ones. How the hell anyone affords to live in the city now is beyond me.

It's beyond affordable.

I am not sure how good quality affordable housing in any way creates a problem for yuppies, they just spend less of their disposable income on housing and more on beard grooming products. In fact just like everyone else, they would be less trapped by their housing choices should they decide that they want a change.

You're confusing social housing (for people who can't afford to live in the area they need to live in) with affordable housing. If people are living in it, then it's affordable for someone.

Like I said, not everyone with money wants a big house. Some (lots of it would seem) people want and can afford an expensive flat.

Like I said, not everyone with money wants a big house. Some (lots of it would seem) people want and can afford an expensive flat.

People actually buying an expensive Manchester flat to live in account for only 10% of the market.

The other 90% are (mostly overseas) investors. Most of those flats will sit empty. Just walk in to the City Centre at night and look up, to see what percentage are actually occupied.

It’s not hard to see why only investors can afford them. The prices are bonkers!

That property developer (who didn’t seem like a bad bloke at all), who would only sell to homeowners who were buying it to live in, and not investors, had only sold literally a handful of units in that huge development

All this construction is doing many things. What it most certainly isn’t doing is providing many homes for people to actually live in

It’s madness!

And the fact that Manchester City Council are slapping compulsory purchase orders on existing communities to be bulldozed to make way for yet more of these developments is absolutely obscene

The flipside of that is YUPPIES with some cash have to live somewhere too.

Absolutely. But practically everything for yuppies and effectively nothing for those who need affordable social housing does nothing to address the wider problem.

People actually buying an expensive Manchester flat to live in account for only 10% of the market.

The other 90% are (mostly overseas) investors.

Sauce?

Equally if you walk through some of the less savoury parts there's large numbers of empty buildings no one wants to live or do business there.

Sauce?

Have you actually watched the documentary?

It’s quoted repeatedly all the way through it. Being an extremely well-researched BBC documentary, I doubt they plucked it out of the air. I remember Andy Burnham saying a good few years ago that the figure was 85% at the time

That sound healthy to you? Good for Manchester and it’s communities?

The director of Manctopia did an in-depth hour long interview with Nihal on Five Live a few weeks ago. I’ll try and find the link. That’s worth a listen too

Equally if you walk through some of the less savoury parts there’s large numbers of empty buildings no one wants to live or do business there.

Maybe 10 years ago. Those days are long gone. Maybe you know better?

Can you point me towards any areas near Manchester City centre where there are large numbers of empty buildings that aren’t presently being built on.

None spring to mind. I was working on the city centre pre-Covid and theres development absolutely everywhere.

They feature Collyhurst on the programme. Yes, Collyhurst is a shithole, but it’s certainly not ‘full of empty buildings’. But it’s residents are having there homes compulsory purchased to be bulldozed to make way for more developments

Why would the developers bother to go to all the trouble of doing that if there were all this apparent available land you seem to think still exists?

You’ve not actually watched it, have you?

That sound healthy to you?

Maybe 10 years ago. Those days are long gone. Maybe you know better?

I spent 9 months making a different documentary in/around Manchester, and my family's from Bolton/Morecambe, so I'm fond of Manchester and the North West.

Which meant I spent a while staying on Deansgate, and equally a while staying in Toxteth, Wythenshawe, Stockport, Everton, Anfield, Rochdale, Oldham and a few others I've probably blocked from my memory! And yes, there's lots of empty houses and buildings.

Be slightly more objective, a lot of these areas being re-developed really do need the money spending on them.

I quite enjoyed staying in Deansgate and the Quays as it felt safe enough to not have to remove 200kg of filming kit from the car every night!

And yes, there’s lots of empty houses and buildings.

Not anywhere near the city centre, there isn’t. Not for years. That property developer was on about building luxury apartments in Rochdale. ROCHDALE?!!! 😳

Why? Because there are no development opportunities nearer the city centre. They were all snaffled by developers during this Present feeding frenzy.

Be slightly more objective, a lot of these areas being re-developed really do need the money spending on them

Absolutely agreed. But how does booting people out of their homes with compulsory purchase orders (to go where?) to build more glass towers for foreign investors to buy and leave sat empty, help anyone?

Other than the property developers, obviously?

The development Featured in Collyhurst was going to have prices STARTING at £350,000. I can’t see many of the residents presently being booted out of their homes being in the market for those. Can you?

So where are these people supposed to go?

Could you just confirm... have you actually watched it?

have you actually watched it?

I'm slightly more jaded about documentary making. It's a story, not impartial news.

Absolutely agreed. But how does booting people out of their homes with compulsory purchase orders (to go where?) to build more glass towers for foreign investors to buy and leave sat empty, help anyone?

I agree it's not the ideal outcome, but at some point eventually something has to happen, demand for investment properties dries up once investors realise that all that happens is another gets built and sold for the same price. Then the tulip bulbs all rot and the bubble bursts and all those properties end up cheaper and lived in. Some developers make an absolute killing, some foreign investors lose a fortune and people get homes in the end.

It's all much needed housing stock. Is there a better solution? The problem as I see it isn't the building, it's the selling.

I’m slightly more jaded about documentary making. It’s a story, not impartial news.

You’re the one stating ‘facts’ here that there’s apparently areas with ‘loads of empty buildings’ around Manchester City centre.

There isn’t. I was walking across the city every morning, pre-Covid. You can’t really miss it. They're building on literally every inch of land. It’s mad!

And an extremely thorough and well made 4 part documentary, that you haven’t bothered to watch, about a city you don’t live in, clearly shows that there isn’t and looks at the huge issues arising from the present huge scale of development

If you want to maybe give it a viewing, then your opinions might be better qualified.

Just a thought 😃

Actually, it’s a really, really good documentary. It’d be interesting to hear your take onit, having watched it, given that you’re in the business.

I’ll try and find that link to the interview with the director. That was fascinating

Mrs GTi and I briefly considered buying an apartment in the city do we went to see an estate agent opposite Harry Hall's. He couldn't have been more discouraging and succeeded in talking us out of the idea - the apartments are shoddily built with lots of water leaks, there's always street noise, you could end up next to a party flat and so on. We had the impression that he'd have been singing a different song if we'd been investors from China, South Korea or Russia looking to stash some loot in a safe haven.

If there are any empty properties left around Manchester city centre they're only empty because the landowner is leaving them empty so the land can be sold to a property developer.

If there were loads of empty properties there wouldn't be the numbers of homeless people living in the centre. Theres literaly no where left to squat.

One thing about the footage from Collyhurst is that the place looks like a tip. Where I live (Hulme) any rubbish or fly tipping is cleaned up pretty quickly and there's no vandalism. Looks to me like the council is deliberately letting Collyhurst rot. Removing services that residents pay for in council tax to leverage re-development is disgustingly cynical.

I'm not going to pile on with the hate for the property developer Tim, even though the building he is developing was one where many of my friends had studio spaces and got kicked out. He's the least worst type of developer screwing up Manchester at the moment. You won't see the worst ones, those that did the dodgy deals with the council, dodging their obligations regarding social housing etc. I thought the Tim guy stuck his neck out and was very open, even if I don't agree with him I can respect the fact that he's not hiding away and prepared to argue his case. Without his contribution the documentary would have been far less interesting.

For comparison, I live 200 yards from those glass towers in an old council, now housing association tower block and I pay £300 fa month for a 2 bedroom flat. I'm surrounded by housing association properties that were mostly built in the 90's when for every privately owned property that was built two housing association type properties were built.

Only watched episode 1 and it was really interesting, Tim the Developer of Capital and Centric semed a nice chap, open and affable, as well as being a bit to honest, but where all the cash coming from, funded by banks or private people to make a profit on, what happens to all those losing their jobs and cant pay the mortgage or get a new job paying similar cash.
Down the M62 in Liverpool there are quite a few huge blocks gone bust, one recently torn down,one declared unsafe by the fire service and all residents told to go, as well as another just one floor completed of about 30 floors and gone bust, and a few other stalled in construction.

Looks like a lot of people are going to loose a lot of money in the uk in general if two cities about 30 mins apart are anything to base fact on.

There are still plenty of development sites in East Manchester, Gorton, Beswick etc as well as lots of rotting old commercial buildings. I worked in this area for the last 8 years. Not City Centre but not Rochdale either. Our leaky rotting Victorian factory got demolished and replaced with new social housing (the plant relocated to an empty newer building 1/4 of a mile away so jobs stayed local).

Things is, stopping the city centre building won't equate to more social housing or shelters to help people take the first step to getting off the streets being built. Let the developers build in the city, wasn't that long ago no one lived in the centre, not sure I've seen many homes being demolished for the blocks, plenty of empty sites, crumbling industrial buildings and the odd obsolete retail park.

Is it sustainable probably not, is the building boom addressing the housing shortages, definitely not, is it the developers fault no. They are free to invest their money where they see fit. The council should be riding this boom, squeezing the developers through tax etc. and then reinvest in the developments the communities need. Although actual that has also happened, drive up Ashton Old Road, there's loads of social housing and more normal developments.

There are still plenty of development sites in East Manchester, Gorton, Beswick etc

😉

You know it makes sense.

This is actually Beswick.

I think many of us aren't trying to stop building and development, it's just we object to crap city centre building and develement. I mentioned that in the 90's development of private and social housing went side by side and that led to healthy outcomes.

Many new builds remain empty, not needing to be rented out as the return for investors takes priority over everything else. This artificially inflates rents which in turn causes a housing crisis. So whilst stopping building in the city centre won't in itself lead to more social housing, It does contribute massively to the housing crisis. It's the choice the council made. They designed the problem.

Plus everything looks hideous. I was working with an artist from London today and we agreed that the best new architecture in the city centre was the car parks near Salford Central station.

That picture of Beswick looks like that because the council chose to make it look like that. The people of Beswick pay their coinil tax like everybody else but they dont get served.

Clear the rubbish away and build a park. It's easy, so easy that you don't even have to build it, you just to grow it and tend to it now and again.

I think many of us aren’t trying to stop building and development, it’s just we object to crap city centre building and develement.

Hulme has already been mentioned as an example of great development. I used to live next to Weaste in Salford. The terraced streets down there were grim. Most properties were empty and the people still there were in negative equity and literally couldn’t give their houses away. Urban Splash bought the terraced streets and did this with them

That’s a great housing solution using a bit of imagination and existing housing stock.

The present city centre developments are a million miles from that. As far as housing needs are concerned, they provide little useful purpose.

They’re just investment vehicles for investors who couldn’t care less if they’re Manchester or Bratislava. It’s simply what makes them the biggest financial returns.

Is that what should be driving our housing policy?

The Hotspur Press factory will be the next place to turn.
Same exposed brick wall pitch pine floor at a daft price as all the other flats in town...

It was an unsustainable bubble no doubt massively accelerated by Covid. Some of those prices discussed are mental (have watched two episodes).

Those Salford houses are brilliant. I knew someone who got caught in the negative equity trap buying on those streets. So much of the positive development of the 90's was driven by urban splash, it's such a shame the city council didn't follow the example set by them.

Liverpool is the same. Building frenzy all over the city centre mostly being sold to outside investors. Little or no regard for the kind of housing that is probably needed. It would be interesting to know how many flats are occupied. None of the scousers I work with want to live in the new overpriced boxes.

I’m going to not rise to the bit and say anything about Manchester City Council and lack of democratic accountability. FPTP has a lot to answer for.

but has become an archetype of monoculturism

Yep, I lived in Manchester as a student and young professional for 15 years. I loved it but wouldn't dream of living there with a family. It's just not great for families.

When we come back to the UK we'll live in a small town or village. The modern British city just isn't family friendly.

born there, grew up there, didn't move away until I was 47. That was nearly 3 years ago.

Feels like I left it a bit too long, 200 miles feels just about far enough away.

Still amazed at how much a sizeable queue of people were prepared to pay for my old house, 5 miles from the centre.

Agree with Hugo about its unsuitability for families. Loads of social and safety reasons to move my kids away from it.

As somebody who works on the new developments at the end of Deansgate, I found it really interesting. Having worked on similar projects in Manchester for the last 5 years the number of tower cranes going up in that time is crazy. My firm alone owns pretty much all the land between Deansgate Square (big ass glass towers) and the ring road. Several more towers will go up there as well as a school and public park. Development on this scale isn't probably sustainable, construction has always been boom and bust. You will never get social housing in the city centre, land is to expensive. The soup kitchen getting kicked out with no where to go was shit. the council should buy up or rent (long term) empty retail space. One surprising thing I have noticed from the top of these towers is how green Manchester actually is.

This is a really good link to whats going up where in Manchester

https://www.google.com/m16 https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1iKsAEkRbZ42vWsAvG5-LNeziihs&ll=53.48556403012985%2C-2.2597552515626007&z=16

Just as counter to some of the above points as they mainly reflect bitter middle aged men, I know and work with a number of much younger people - early career types. They rent this type of place because there is no commute, close to social life & no ties, it is very disposable. If they are DINKYs then this going to be very affordable at £1,000 a month, they will be pulling in maybe £4k+ between them. When I was their age I had bought my first house in one of the poorer areas of outer Leeds as this lifestyle wasn't on offer up north at the time. I have to say there is some appeal, although in hindsight I'm obviously glad I got onto the housing ladder early, but socialising was a massive pain in the arse.

Excuse the humpty question, DINKY?

Pre-Covid the average wage in Manchester was £26k. If the people who have money are leaving for the suburbs and satellites I can only see the new towers coming down again. There's something oddly Keynesian about this. I lived in Manchester in the 70s and for the last 3.5yrs half the week. Hulme was a reversal of fortunes for the people living there. These towers (I did hear 80) left me bemused. There's very little infrastructure and 1 Deansgate is already having its issues plus all the cladding business elsewhere. The air was kin awful in the centre and you felt relief straight away when you left. Who would want to pay big money for that?

craig5
Full Member
Excuse the humpty question, DINKY?

Dual Income No Kids Yet

Just watched episode 2, so many void properties that could easily be used a s soup kitchen for the homeless, in the city centre, lots of empty retail space available, just needs a landlord or the council to get its fingers out and do some walking and talking .

just needs a landlord or the council to get its fingers out and do some walking and talking .

Good luck with that. A couple of years ago my boss came back from a meeting with the council top brass and told me that all the homeless people in Manchester were imported from outside by gangsters to take advantage of the fact that, 'Mancunians are too generous'. This came from the person at the council (I never got the name) who at the time was in charge of dealing with homeless people. Manchester City Council don't give a flying f*** about the homeless, and genuinely believe the problem doesn't exist, and is instead a money making scheme organised by non-mancunian gangsters.

Here's the council leader back 2015 cofirming this view..

https://www.manchester.gov.uk/blog/leadersblog/post/743/homelessness-and-street-begging

and another one..

https://www.manchester.gov.uk/blog/leadersblog/post/860/-peak-begging-season

just needs a landlord or the council to get its fingers out and do some walking and talking .

Good luck with that! The only thing that counts is returns on investment for fund managers. The only thing. The homeless aren’t even on the radar.

In this brave new world, people who can’t afford a half a million quid mortgage are considered second class citizens.

I’d love to hear what Howard Bernstein thinks about all this. The man who drove all that development in the 90’s. Who did so much for this city he clearly loved. He really was a visionary. What’s his take on this? That would have been a worthwhile addition to the documentary

So sad, any one of could be homeless in months if the downturn continues, and then what, civil unrest.

I'm begining to realise how fortunate Hulme and Moss Side were in the 90's, not only that they got all the investment that areas like Collyhurst never recieved but mostly because they rebuilt the entire area so theres very little derelict land or unrenovated property to build on or demolish.

What a difference a decade makes. I'd assumed that other areas would gradually receive the treatment that Hulme and Moss Side had recieved, (i,e. redevelopment that suited the needs of the community.) 10 years on it was Ancoats and Miles Plattings' turn, only the needs of the community were ignored this time. What would Howard Bernstien think indeed.

For the last couple of generations people have come to study in Manchester (and other Northern cities) and stayed on, it's helped to create a healthy (cosmopolitan) mix between newcomers and natives and between the classes as well. It's that mix that fuelled the Manchester renaissance where the population developed organically and in a positive way, that has now ceased and that's not a good thing. Im sure there's many on here like me who moved to the city from the countryside and learned to adapt and integrate. For the Sandmen and Women (Logans Run reference) they dont have to adapt and integrate, everything has been arranged for them, the city has adapted to their needs. The modern city is no longer an urbane or cosmopolitan place, It is the new suburbia.

Definitely a middle aged man looking back with rose tinted glasses, doesn't make me wrong though.

My own take on Manchester is that it feels sterile - lived in many places across the globe to make my opinion. The city should 'feel' way more than it does - in terms of size and supposed stature. Visitors and friends come based on the media hype, find out its nothing like its portrayed, leave and and won't come back. Newcastle and the 'real' vibe is much more a northern city in my opinion. I also don't get the scary, perceived violent side of the city - having grown up in Glasgow all im seeing here are dolls with (EVOC?) bum bags tied around their shoulder/waist.