My real views but at the extreme of what is acceptable.
I believe in managed death and I believe in harvesting organs where possible.
This chap was 32, his wife and his parents sat by the beside for 3+ days waiting for him to die. it was clear he was going to die. The ventilator was switched off at a time when the transplant team were still there. It took a further 8 hrs for his lungs to stop working and his heart to stop beating. He had been brain dead for at least 24 hrs if not longer at this time. IIRC he had "coned" ( best not explained further)
Managing his death better could have reduced the trauma for his family and allowed his organs to be used as everyone wished.
Larry Nivens SF has some good thoughts on "the organ donor problem" and the use of convicted criminals and the death sentence.
the use of convicted criminals
LOOKING THROUGH GARY GILMORE'S EYES! LOOKING THROUGH GARY GILMORE'S EYES!
I don't the full details of this case... but I have dealt with a fair number of young-to-youngish alcoholic patients, right to the bitter end - it's about as undignified and unpleasant a way to go as any. Hepatic encephalopathy can result in the kind of confusion you'd more commonly associate with advanced dementia.
I'll say this - the human capacity for self-destruction (for whatever reason) will never cease to amaze me. If nothing else, it underlines the achievement of those who pull themselves out of the tailspin.
Read an article in the Observer mag a few months back when a reporter had a stay on one of these wards himself through repeated self-abuse. A very sobering read. You got the sense of the body fluids, infection, pain and mental anguish. Not good.
What a tragic waste of a young life. He must have been looking forward to the next 25 years of standing in a Jobcentre, smelling of p1sh telling everyone that he knows his rights.
The presumption should always be that you don't fancy being stripped like a stolen car by the NHS version of a cut and shut gang.
I think the presumption should be if you DON'T want to be sliced manifest yourself by registering on a list.
Then as for this bloke, first society did fail him. You lots on here seems to forget alcohol is a drug. It is the tolerated drug of the Christian society hence it is tolerated, but it still is a drug. Maybe by the age of 18 this guy was too hooked up to quit, and already too sick to be saved.
As for the choice of giving him or not an organ it is not down to one single individual to choose whether or not he deserved it, but to a competent committee with knowledge if all the facts.
What a tragic waste of a young life. He must have been looking forward to the next 25 years of standing in a Jobcentre, smelling of p1sh telling everyone that he knows his rights.
Out of order. Alcohol can be a powerful and addictive drug. A tragic loss. Part of the blame lays with the idiots who sold him the alcohol at a young age to line their own pockets.
Should Paedos and murderers be given organs? Theres another box of frogs to open....
Death sentence by proxy?
A tragic loss
To whom?
His ****in family and friends for a start, whether they tried to help him or not. My friend had a relation who drank himself to death despite his family doing all they could to stop him, including trying to get him sectioned. They most cetainly were not doleys, Pikeys, Chavs or any of the other social groups that some on here like to look down on.
Think about watching a loved one of yours slowly destroying themselves and no matter what you do they wont stop.
And I mean REALLY think about how you would feel and then see if you feel the same.
Alot of people on here live in a sort of arrogance-towers. My bestmates Mum died of Liver failure at 42yrs old. Far too ****ing young. People dont chose to get addicted to alcohol. It happens.
Unfortunately most people that it happens to go into it with their eyes wide open though, well aware of the problems. I dont quite understand the "its addictive" argument unless your addict has no knowledge of this fact (possibly this case is an example of that). EVERYONE adult (and usually younger by far) knows alcohol is addictive. So to say someting is addictive is as strange to me as saying "its not his fault, crack is addictive" - sure it is, but he/you took it in the first place knowing the risks
Its legal hence its alot more addictive than crack. You can buy alcohol on almost every street corner (sic) compared to 'Crack.
In addition- You dont chose to become addicted, unlike crack its sneaks up on you. You need to be a 'man' infront of your mates when you are growing up/handle your drink. If a mate knew you were taking crack- well they'd freak. Thats why, IMO alcohol is the most addictive drug out there.
Regardless of how addictive it is, people KNOW it is addictive yet still become addicted. If you use a drug you should monitor it's effects on you. Take responsibility for your own actions.
Its not that easy. When you have known addiction. Thats when you'll understand.
I've known it from an immediate family member position, not from a first hand one. But I don't need to have suffered personally to know that I stop at the end of the week and think "hmmm...drank a lot this week, best cut back" and that's all it takes to prevent it, regardless of the situation. If you're responsible for your actions you wont get into a situation where you're becoming addicted as you'll spot it beforehand. IMO, and an off the cuff analogy for which I'm famous here, its like killing yourself by driving too fast. Driving fast is addictive, I get miserable and bored when I dont get to drive fast, driving fast gives me a big rush and a smile on my face and lets me forget the troubles I have. If I dont watch my speed regularly I naturally creep up to very high speeds and risk myself in search of the fun, but I'm responsible and dont let that happen very often as I'm aware it is dangerous. If I wasnt responsible I'd take no notice of my speed and likely die early of my speed (driving) addiction.
Unfortunately most people that it happens to go into it with their eyes wide open though, well aware of the problems.
Including 13 year olds.
I dont quite understand the "its addictive" argument unless your addict has no knowledge of this fact (possibly this case is an example of that).
And pray tell, do you ever partake of alcohol? Do you know it's addictive? Why do you drink it then?
EVERYONE adult (and usually younger by far) knows alcohol is addictive.
It doesn't say that on the can/bottle though, does it? It doesn't say that in the Tv ads either. Given that the 22 year old in question may have had less than ideal parental supervision since his initiation into drinking at 13, would you expect him just to know [b]how addictive and dangerous[/b] it can be to some people?
So to say someting is addictive is as strange to me as saying "its not his fault, crack is addictive" - sure it is, but he/you took it in the first place knowing the risks
Lot's of things seem strange to you coffeeking, human nature being one of them.
Wow CK you are totally clueless re alcoholism.
Society makes heroes of people who can handle their drink, get pissed and generally drink to excess.
Go find the interviews on the internet with the friends of one of the infantrymen recently killed, his two best mates eulogy was "He liked a drink" and "He was always up for drink and a night out" - what an epitaph for a young soldier.
Go spend some time with alcoholics and see just how hard it is to get away from it.
If you come off crack you can remove yourself from places and people where it may be offered to you. Whereas, alcohol is legal and promoted heavily which makes it very impressive when people drag themselves back from the brink, sadly some people have neither the support nor the personal drive to do so.
peer pressure is huge to have a drink, from a young age through adulthood.
try not drinking for a few nights out with no 'reason' and you'll see what i mean.
socialising in this country is loosely based on alcohol in most forms - lots of riding is for sure.
Once upon a time when you visited friends and they said "would you like a drink" you got tea or coffee, now it's wine or beer.
sadly some people have neither the support nor the personal drive to do so.
Well some of these 13 year olds need to MTFU and find other ways of dealing with their parents splitting up.
.
Of course the wish to sell (for large amounts of money) any spare livers knocking around, might have been the reason why Gary Reinbach was denied one. From earlier this year :
[url= http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/health/article5439761.ece ]Outrage over organs ‘sold to foreigners’[/url]
Quote :
[i]" THE organs of 50 British National Health Service donors have been given to foreign patients who have paid about £75,000 each for private transplant operations in the past two years.
[b]The liver transplants took place at NHS hospitals, despite severe shortages that mean many British patients die while waiting for an organ that could save their lives.[/b]
The surgeons who carry out the transplants receive a share of the operation fee — believed to be about £20,000 — as all the work is done privately in NHS hospitals. "[/i]
Presumably wealthy foreigners don't need to prove to the British government that they have gone dry for 6 months.
And I also presume that the families of the donors didn't receive 'a share of the operation fee'.
Bet all that complies with the wishes of the donor 😕
His ****in family and friends for a start
"family" will be mummy who spent 10 years watching him drink himself to death?
friends will be..? Pi55heads aren't the most popular people. In fact, other than other pi55heads, no-one really likes them. And in this case, this guy had, once, had a job, and got sacked because of his drinking. So now, in his 20's he's never had a job to speak of, so not likely to ever have another one because the time when you learn the base skills that form your working future has gone and the only skills he developed were putting away Special Brew and waking up with a hangover. All of which looks like a career in smelling of p1sh and knowing his rights in the Jobcentre, with specialisms in "borrowing 20p furracuppatea". No loss to anyone.
ernie_lynch this is exactly the sort of selfish shite that stops even more donors coming forward both current and future.
rogerthecat - im not clueless, though you may think I am. However I made no comments regarding the difficulty "getting off" alcohol, simply that it is simple not to "get on" it if you're responsible. I'm well aware of the social pressure to drink, I've been subject to it just as most other people have. I drank through my teens. But even then I assessed my intake and knew when to stop, and kept an eye on my mates. Dont want to come across as standing on a soap box, but it really is easy - if you take responsibility for your life you'll watch the things that can damage you and not do them to excess, regardless of their addictive nature. Addictive doesnt mean "innevitable" or "unnavoidable", at least not last time I checked.
"family" will be mummy who spent 10 years watching him drink himself to death?
friends will be..? Pi55heads aren't the most popular people. In fact, other than other pi55heads, no-one really likes them.
So, no good friends to rely on.
And in this case, this guy had, once, had a job, and got sacked because of his drinking.
And no friends, family or otherwise to put him right. I'd love to know the work history at 22 of a lot of the pious posters in this thread. How many of them missed a morning after a session at the rugby club.
So now, in his 20's he's never had a job to speak of, so not likely to ever have another one because the time when you learn the base skills that form your working future has gone and the only skills he developed were putting away Special Brew and waking up with a hangover.
He died at 22. I guess that means I'm ****ed too. I spent the years from 17 to...oh well....off my ****ing head on whatever I could get my hands on. I can still manage to go to work and do my boring,and at times stressful job five days a week. But this guy, he was just... beyond the pale. He should die.
All of which looks like a career in smelling of p1sh and knowing his rights in the Jobcentre
I work in a Jobcentre(plus 🙄 ). The alchies that come in haven't a ****ing clue of their rights, or what help is very occasionally available to them. They'd be afraid to ask incase some pious needledick like yourself took offence and referred them to DMA.
with specialisms in "borrowing 20p furracuppatea". [b]No loss to anyone[/b].
I'd hate to live in your world.
[b]but it really is easy - if you take responsibility for your life you'll watch the things that can damage you and not do them to excess, regardless of their addictive nature[/b]
I rarely feel like deliberately insulting posters here no matter how stupid...but...
So, no good friends to rely on.
Exactly, one of the "benefits" of membership of the Special Brew Club
I'd love to know the work history at 22 of a lot of the pious posters in this thread. How many of them missed a morning after a session at the rugby club.
..and more to the point how many were sacked because of being p155heads. Not very many, I'd guess
I don't have a clue what DMA is, because I'm fortunate enough to have stuck in at school and not have to deal with this scum, other than when it tries begging 20p forracuppatea.They'd be afraid to ask in case some pious needledick like yourself took offence and referred them to DMA.
I'd hate to live in your world.
You do, just the lower echelons of it.
Dr D, thats your opinion and you're welcome to it. It is my opinion that you can control what you do with your body, it may be difficult at times and it may take mentally checking yourself at times, but it is possible. Dont get yourself in that situation in the first place and you wont have an addiction to deal with. Brutal, but someone needs to be. The vast majority of the public cope with it and cope with self-limiting. I just do not subscribe to the "its addictive, its not their fault" doctrine I'm afraid. I'm fine with "they're an addict, they now cant help themselves", but not before that - they had a choice.
I rarely feel like posting a response to stupid posts by that arsenal chap, but the whole "im a victim" attitude just doesnt wash with me. You dabbled and took a chance with something that is addictive, you didn't keep a check on it, you lost the bet - now shut up. However, as I said earlier, this "victim" could well be an exception due to starting rediculously early and possibly also being immenselely weak willed and/or stupid and not heeding warnings about alcohol that are given out day in day out in schools and have been since I was a child.
I just do not subscribe to the "its addictive, its not their fault" doctrine I'm afraid.
<gasp> you mean, you really mean that people should take some kind of responsibility for their own actions??? Good grief what's the world coming to?
I appear to be living in a parallel world to some, mine is all faulty because it comes in shades of grey - any one know where I can get it restored to the factory setting of black and white?
Ohhh, fatboy, no need to get naaaaasty.
But hey, let's go!
..and more to the point how many were sacked because of being p155heads. Not very many, I'd guess
Well, what's your experience of the type of work or the conditions available to the Gentleman in question? If you're honest with yourself, this isn't a working class Dagenham type place to hang out. You know less about shit jobs than I do apparently, existing as I do at the
of society. And I'm guessing, just guessing, you know sweet **** all about the educational opportunities and support available to a child who was able to start his short journey to death by piss by the age of 22, at 13.lower echelons
I don't have a clue what DMA is, because I'm fortunate enough to have stuck in at school and not have to deal with this scum, other than when it tries begging 20p forracuppatea.
Well you could always google it in the context of jobcentreplus. It's what I assumed people with the ability or inclination to do so, would do. I guess some people are just [b]lazy[/b] though.
[b]Lazy[/b] or not, I still think you are a pathetic selfcentred little needledick, lacking in the minimal degree of empathy required to be a productive member of society by any measurement, and there's little I, or the Mods can do about that.
So what? Heres a newsflash.... your all going to die... maybe tomorrow ...
[b]OK this thread has got a bit out of hand now what with all the mudslinging and name calling, time to close it down. Mod[/b]
