[Closed] Macca on vegetarianism

Animals do not have rights.

But we have a huge responsibility toward them.

Indeed, it's complex, and as humans tend to view the "rights" of different groups of animals differently, for instance the 8 animals we eat regularly are in one group, where eating them or farming them is possible, or allowable and then water mammals are in another along with large apex predators and the primates...all seen to have a given set of rights from humans, which exclude them from being eaten. All very random.

Still, all of us are free to choose where our moral compass points, so again, have that conversation with yourself, and if you're happy with the answer it throws up, then great, it you start questioning your choices to date, then there loads of info to help make a decision

It's a bit like the religion debate. I've a lot more respect for someone whose actions have been thought about.

If you've looked at what you eat and decided that yes, the slaughter of an animal is an acceptable price to pay for your dinner, and you're quite happy chowing down on dead flesh, then fair play to you. If you're squeamish about the whole process, perhaps you might want to reconsider what you're putting in your mouth.

Eating meat does seem to be somewhat arbitrary though. Or, maybe that's the wrong word; it's cultural. As others have said, we eat pig and cow, but not horse or dog. Why, what's the difference? Other countries will selectively eat a different set. Is eating pig but not horse a moral issue? I think in the UK we just only eat ugly animals.

So we eat the meats we eat because we always have? That's a terrific reason to do something.

To be fair, it's the same reason we do most things.

We do them because it works.
If it didn't, we'd do something else.

Forced change doesn't often work, but leading by example often does.
Evolution in action, innit? 😀

I'm not squeamish.

So we eat the meats we eat because we always have?

I eat it at least because it's really delicious. Like, not just nice and tasty but it really seems to satisfy me in a way that I've never experienced with veggie food.

I think in the UK we just only eat ugly animals.

Apart from lamb and deer.

I do have much more of an issue with intensive agriculture than I do with eating meet. I was initially opposed to deer hunting like my Father in Law does, but then I thought that there is no less morally objectionable way to eat meat, so if I am prepared to eat farmed meat I should be prepared to shoot wild venison. I'm not sure I'd enjoy it though so perhaps I don't actually need to!

I eat it at least because it's really delicious

So why not eat horse? Or a nice juicy kittenburger?

Apart from lamb and deer.

Bugger. (-:

Unapologetic meat eater here, it has a certain density to it that veggie food doesn't, even things like jacket potatoes can't compare to a steak in my opinion.
There are juices that flow from meat that are divine and which veggie food just can't replicate.
More than happy to eat any meat, we are very closed minded in that respect in the UK.

frustrated that nobody has mentioned quinoa... a complete protein containing all 9 essential amino acids... I don't really see what meat has to offer over that?

I also though that everything had to use complementary proteins in order to achieve this be it meat or veggie

Ta for that, will check Quinoa out.

Would you have any objections to 'grown' meat btw?
Heard a lot about this a few years ago but nothing seems to have come of it as yet.

I am nota typical vegan though so some back history

i think eating meat is wrong as it is murder but it is the way of the world so hey ho
However I think farming meat is inherently cruel[ of course they suffer in ways a wild animal would not] so i gave up meat due to farming and then became vegan much later. Would have eaten fish as they were free but i dont like fish.

Would I eat death free meat. I am certain I would have when i started but after 30 meat free years i would be very surprised if i ate meat again however sourced.
I dont actually know what i would do now tbh as i know i can live without but by heck meat is tasty

i once got invited to an all vegan placenta party 😯

dear gods, Leave you lot alone for a day and it gets all serious and angst ridden. 😕

I listened to the Macca interview on R4 this afternoon. Mostly nothing new to me about the immense calorific value of food/crops lost to us when you use it feed a cow to then feed people, and Macca is a bit nauseating at points. 😆

I was pleasantly suprised at the notion that you can sustain such a population of farm animals on stuff that would never be consumed by humans, ie with no 'cost' to the potential humans fed by prioritising producing food lower down he triangle.

JY Quinoa is undoubtedly an excellent food source particularly for us veggies/vegans.
But until it is grown locally and in greater quanitities worldwide, it is not without its moral cost:
[url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa ]I read this in the Grauniad last week. [/url]

FWIW I am a strict vegetarian who also cooks meat for his children and friends.

FWIW I am a strict vegetarian who also cooks meat for his children and friends.

honestly, massive respect from me for that.

So your position is that humans would have evolved the same intelligence without eating meat, yes?

i think its literally an academic question as we cannot anser it

For example having language makes us intelligent as we can express ideas
Being bipedal increases blood flow to the brain making you clever and freeing up our hands for tools
Being social animals makes us interact and then lie and manipulate one another [ clever behaviour] or remember who we trust
how much each contributes to the whole NO ONE know but meat [imho]is probably the least important though or else all meat eating animals would be clever.

You can eat meat in my house if you bring your own plates and cutlery 😉
I have cooked meat for work but not for years and unlikely to do so again.
Put meat on the menu at my weddding - considered how many time i had moaned because there was nothing for me to eat that it was only fair that i gave them something to eat at mine.

So why not eat horse? Or a nice juicy kittenburger?

When its available I happily eat Horse meat, its lovely. (normally not in this country)

No idea what Kitten tastes like, and I would imagine it would be quite expensive. But if I was somewhere where it was available, I would probably give it a try. Like I do with most foods.

honestly, massive respect from me for that.

It's a lifestyle choice not a religion, I don't think it's really that noble gallant or respect-worthy. Same way I would get cider and whisky in for guests at a party even though I can't stand drinking it myself. You still have to smoke in the garden though.

What is really funny is that whilst I am often curious, I have never ever been able to sneak a cheeky taste of whatever meaty stuff I am cooking in the kitchen whilst no-one is looking. Ridiculous of me since the animal is dead and served to my kids whether I have a sneaky nibble of it or not. 😆

I also tend to over rather than under cook meat these days as its so many years since I made it for myself I worry I might have lost my 'judgement'. Friends approach my barbecues with some trepidation nowadays!

So why not eat horse? Or a nice juicy kittenburger?

I would eat horse, perhaps not kitten though. I think cats and dogs etc are of higher IQ so life and death means a bit more to them. I ought not eat pigs for that reason, and I don't eat it very often.

JY if you cooked for me I would look forward to eating a vegan meal. However I do seem to remember I asked for real milk in my tea that one time 🙂 It was cos I am suspicious of soya milk, of course I should have had it black.

frustrated that nobody has mentioned quinoa... a complete protein containing all 9 essential amino acids... I don't really see what meat has to offer over that?

What about availability too? It's not sufficient for something to simply be in a food, it has to be accessible by your gut. E.g. iron in vegetables - it's there, but hard to process.

The not so good side of Quinoa is this
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jan/16/vegans-stomach-unpalatable-truth-quinoa

Ps And before you complain about the source/newspaper, others are available.

"Impact of Carnivory on Human Development and Evolution Revealed by a New Unifying Model of Weaning in Mammals"

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0032452

[i]I've a lot more respect for someone whose actions have been thought about.[/i]

absolutely. Rusty Spanner's point is a brilliant example, if you don't believe animals have rights, then at least treat them with respect. Find out where your food comes from, and how it's been farmed. I don't believe for a moment that the cellophane wrapped lumps of white, pink and brown meat on supermarket shelves would pass rusty's test. Make it your business to find out.

FWIW my eggs come from my neighbours mostly, and milk, well, as a veggie it's hard enough eating out without restricting your diet further, and chefs seem to have decided that we eat goats cheese in a pastry parcel....

I don't believe for a moment that the cellophane wrapped lumps of white, pink and brown meat on supermarket shelves would pass rusty's test.

It's not necessarily as bad as you think, but it is certainly a valid point. There is meat on the shelves that comes from a long way overseas if you look.

FWIW I just had lamb from a farm 5 miles or so from here. I also had their sausages this morning - they were cellophane wrapped, in a polystyrene tray too.

Mol, you're probably right, but at least your local butcher can probably tell you more about the provenance of your chosen animal. and if you're going to eat them, you at least owe them that.

you at least owe them that.

I don't get the "you owe them stance". they are a prey animal they get get munched.....I'm more than happy to hunt, kill and prepare my own food. At no point do I think about anthropomorphising my food to think, "thank you mr bunny, I hope you've had a jolly life hoppity boppiting about with all you're little bunny pals, now you're stew"

😯

[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbit_starvation ]Don't eat too much rabbit or lean meat....[/url]

it's all right nick lean meat starvation won't get me, my diet is very similar to a chimp, I eat lots of fruit, leafy stuff, insect protein, nuts and anything small and fury I can get my paws on (I do cook it unlike my Darwinian brethren though)

actually, that may also explain excessive hairiness and temptation to fling poo at those who annoy me. 😀

tazzy, cool.

morally there's everything from "Animals have no rights, and we can do what we want" at one end and "Animals have a right to life, and killing them is morally wrong " at the other, and everything on the spectrum in between. As long as you're giving it some thought, and not just blindly picking up chicken 'product' off the supermarket shelf, or justifying your meat habit by some hokum about evolution, then happy times.

Are you actually saying you personally get a significant amount of your protein from quinoa, every day?

Or are you just putting it out there as a "veggie superfood"?

some hokum about evolution,

I studied evolutionary and population genetics for years so I'd be a big fat dobber if I did 😀

Any reason we can't grow quinoa in Europe?

Any reason we can't grow quinoa in Europe?

already growing strains of it in the Loire Valley, but not a fantastic tonnage per hectare

So what's the most ethical way to eat meat in the UK? Do I need to go and get myself an air rifle?

The vast majority of my meat is Waitrose/Duchy/Laverstoke Park (Jody Scheckter) organic or local farm shop (all pastured, some organic). That's enough to satisfy me the animals have had "a good life" (whatever that means) although the animals' welfare is a side benefit rather than a primary consideration for me. I appreciate I'm in a reasonably privileged position to be able to do this (as far as the supermarket organic goes - local farm shop meat is not particularly expensive IMO)

Do I need to go and get myself an air rifle?

Might need something a bit more powerful, unless you're hunting mice.

...which if you are. Best get in a professional.

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