In a few years discussions about taxing ICE’s will be about as relevant to HMRC as the VAT rate on cashmere codpieces.
Umm...
ICE vehicles are going to be sold in the UK at least until 2030. Given that they can last for 20 years that's be go in to be a lot of them on UK roads until 2050 at the earliest.
(And the chairman of Toyota has recently said that they do not expect EV take up to reach more than about 30% of the total vehicle sold in the foreseeable future)
If you have zero interest in cars then that may make zero sense to you, but please stop questioning my (and others) motivation for what car I buy.
But you reply with such long posts that fail to get to the point!
Maybe I just don't like the word poverty being associated with buying a car. I see people in poverty every day, they don't have cars, it just smacks of a either arrogance, trying to show off, lack of understanding about how far too many live or a complete and utter lack of empathy
But you reply with such long posts that fail to get to the point!
Apologies.. I'll be succinct so you understand. You are completely wrong about my motivations for buying a new car.
Hope that clears it up for you...
Weight on it's own would be a pretty dumb way to class vehicles for VED. Presumably the idea behind using weight is it's determining the impact of that vehicle but without taking annual mileage into consideration it's way wide of the mark.
Maybe I just don’t like the word poverty being associated with buying a car
A better term is Utility spec - steel wheels, unpainted bumpers. A modern day equivalent to a 2CV or Series Landrover. Closest I've found is an old shape Berlingo or the first Dacia's but even those have gone upmarket. I don't want the frills or gadgets of modern cars.
I number of people were grumbling about “poverty spec” cars
That is an ironic term. People grumble about low spec cars because they like the optional extras on cars, not because they care what others think about their cars.
Presumably the idea behind using weight is it’s determining the impact of that vehicle but without taking annual mileage into consideration it’s way wide of the mark
That is already rolled into the large amount of tax on petrol and diesel.
Going back a couple of pages:
I don’t find my worth in material goods. I find it in friendships and experiences. I feel sorry for those who need to buy stuff to prove their own value
Anti-snobbery is JUST as bad as snobbery, because it's basically the same thing. You own a nice bike don't you TJ? Because you ride, and you want to appreciate something that works well whilst you're using it. That's the reason I have kept the nice car I have - because I love to travel to places that are accessible by car, and I love driving this particular car. Because it drives really well.
You also spent money restoring an old motorbike, because you love what that bike represents and what it is. And you presumably love how it rides. Well, that's not that different to people who like certain cars. Undoubtedly there are some shallow folk who buy cars just to impress others, but there are a great many more who keep nice cars (old or new) for the same reasons you have your nice MTB and your motorbike.
Intersting article on Autocar today stating how the average age of a car is growing. The following comment was particularly notable for this conversation (well, the start of it at least!):
According to Philip Nothard, insight director at Cox Automotive, a key factor is the rising price of new cars, up 129% over the past 15 years from an average of £22,868 to £52,342. This is almost 50% above inflation across the same period,” he said.
“The average diesel car is now 149% more expensive than its 2009 equivalent and the average petrol 93% more.
The cars are also bigger heavier faster with more gadgets.
Also safer, generally better to drive and more economical too.
Interesting to note that people who think EVs are very expensive are probably thinking back to the last time they cared about new car prices. I thought they were very expensive then I realised how expensive new ICEs had also become. The main difference in the market is the lack of EVs at the cheap end - because you can't absorb the battery cost in the price of a small car. That said I'd far rather have a 3 year old EV than a brand new Toyota Aygo.
Oh yeah, re weight - I think 15 years ago was probably the nadir, they've been getting slightly lighter since then. My 2006 Passat was 1472kg, looks like a similar car is now 1430kg - with more gadgets too.
The average diesel car is now 149% more expensive than its 2009 equivalent and the average petrol 93% more
I'm not sure the average list price is a particularly useful metric. Diesel makes up almost no new sales these days, and I can't think of a new fiesta-sized car thats available with a diesel any more, and almost no focus-sized cars (maybe the golf is still around?) - whereas 15 year ago they were common.
Interesting discussion..
The bit that I don't fully understand is that the scheme was introduced in April 2021 at £40,000.. we're now at the end of 2024 and yet it remains at £40,000. Adjusted for inflation it should be £48,413.95.
Everything has got more expensive. As it keeps getting mentioned, the list price of a Passat Estate 1.5 R-line was £ 35,390.00 in 2021, the same car now is £43,780. That same car now falls foul of the luxury car tax because the amount hasn't been adjusted to keep up with inflation, yet student loan interest rates and other government money making schemes see regular inflation/interest rate reviews. Seems the government just wants to ensure they keep increasing the 'tax' on us.
People grumble about low spec cars because they like the optional extras on cars, not because they care what others think about their cars.
No, i grumble because the seats are uncomfortable, they are noisy and very often badly put together.
Bear in mind, my threshold for all of these parameters are wildly different to yours. Because any minute now someone is going to pop up and say that their 14 year old Peugeot is the comfiest thing they've ever sat in, and silent as the grave. And nothing squeaks, creaks or rattles.
Interesting discussion..
The bit that I don’t fully understand is that the scheme was introduced in April 2021 at £40,000.. we’re now at the end of 2024 and yet it remains at £40,000. Adjusted for inflation it should be £48,413.95.
I guess it's not inflation based then, so how are the other measures of economic performance going for the UK? National Debt? GDP? Public spending (as a proportion of GDP? Number of family's below the poverty line? Can the current government afford to just give up such sources of funding?
Plus with a luxury tax on cars, you have to wonder if the demographic it typically affects (predominantly high earners) are a group that a Labour government aren't particularly concerned about wooing/alienating, because they probably consider them more likely to vote Tory regardless of how various wealth based taxes affect them. while the Tories that imposed the current luxury car tax arrangements probably thought they could rely on those same votes...
There's a question, would this specific issue be one that affects the way you vote at all?
The cars are also bigger heavier faster with more gadgets.
A lot of the gadgets can be trinkets, or for driving pleasure - or for safety...
Emergency braking for collision avoidance
Warning systems to let you know if someone is approaching too quick at the rear
Voice controlled systems so you aren't messing about with your stereo
Warning systems to tell passengers not to open a door if a cyclist is approaching
Junction surveillance to give an extra pair of eyes when, lets say - a cyclist might be approaching that's difficult to see on a restricted view junction
Just a few examples of modern car technology that you don't get on 'utility' spec or older motors
Just a few examples of modern car technology that you don’t get on ‘utility’ spec or older motors
Actually, the hire Dacia I had recently seemed to have most of them. And they worked better than the Ford Tourneo I just hired.
Most of the safety stuff is now mandated if the car is a recent model (as in has been launched recently) - certainly need it if you want a none terrible ncap score.
Warning systems to let you know if someone is approaching too quick at the rear
I can think of multiple situations in which this knowledge is useless! Possibly dangerous if driver panics! How does one utilize this particular piece of information when getting out of the way is either unsafe or not an option? Assume crash position?
I can think of multiple situations in which this knowledge is useless! Possibly dangerous if driver panics! How does one utilize this particular piece of information when getting out of the way is either unsafe or not an option? Assume crash position?
I don't know about other cars, but in mine it will put the hazards on to try and alert the oncoming vehicle.
As I tend to not pull right up to the bumper of the car in front and the auto hold is on, if I get a warning, I have the option to maybe move another 10ft or so forward with a quick dab of the accelerator and potentially get out of the way of the crash zone.
I'm generally looking for this kind of stuff in my rear view mirror anyway, but if I can get another warning, it's all good with me
It has to be set to a 'defined' (DVLA defined) value to stop each dealer taking the p1ss where the car costs £5 but you have to buy the key at £39,995.
It is a joke in that 10+ years ago when introduced, £40k hit big Mercs, big BMWs and Land Rovers. Quite rightly. But now it's hitting middle of the road Ford, Vauxhall, Skoda, Hyundai and even Kia.
They should stick it on the 1st reg cost - make the new car purchaser pay. But the rental and leasing car companies didn't want that (as they'll ship the car on after 2 or 3 years so only get hit by half of it and spread out) so the Gov of the day (Tory gov ?) favoured them.
I can think of multiple situations in which this knowledge is useless! Possibly dangerous if driver panics! How does one utilize this particular piece of information when getting out of the way is either unsafe or not an option? Assume crash position?
The car also does things, precharge the brakes, get ready to discharge airbags and pretensioners, prepare to apply the handbrake/EPB if the car starts rolling (after the crash), begin connecting to any oncall services etc Depending on the manufacturer and what options you've paid for.
The question is though, why?
Because it's my job. I've spent 20+ years, on and off, being paid to pick fault with cars. And then write about it.
There are plenty of taxes that seem unjustified/unfair but at least with this one you can easy choose to avoid it if you want, without any risk of anyone even calling you tax avoiding/evading scum.
has been mandatory on all cars since 2022 – so even utility spec new cars have it
Probably doesn't happen in the car world, but I have a bike manufactured in the EU in 2016* that doesn't even comply to emissions regs introduced in 2006, nor does it have abs, although that was covered by an "end of series" declaration.
* 1st Registered in 2018
Warning systems to let you know if someone is approaching too quick at the rear
Mine's got that! I think they call it a "rear view mirror"
Only on STW could you list a load of car SAFETY features (some of which are designed with actual cyclists in mind) and people find a reason to sneer about them.
This place is incredible sometimes
The car also does things, precharge the brakes, get ready to discharge airbags and pretensioners, prepare to apply the handbrake/EPB
I've never heard of any of these things (aside from pretensioners). In normal conditions the car isn't ready to do these things?
As far as I'm aware, airbags are attached to an electronically-ignited firework. What is there to prepare? I don't really want to bounce off the steering wheel because the car goes "hold on, I wasn't ready."
Mercedes Pre Safe is an example of this
Only on STW could you list a load of car SAFETY features (some of which are designed with actual cyclists in mind) and people find a reason to sneer about them.
Yeah.
STW: Drivers are terrible!
Also STW: We hate automatic safety features!
I’ve never heard of any of these things (aside from pretensioners).
Maybe you need a Luxury car? 😉
In normal conditions the car isn’t ready to do these things?
It's ready, yes. But 50 ms of prewarning allows it to do them better. And if the crash doesn't happen, it goes back to ready.
As far as I’m aware, airbags are attached to an electronically-ignited firework. What is there to prepare? I don’t really want to bounce off the steering wheel because the car goes “hold on, I wasn’t ready.”
It'll be looking at the timing of the bags, which one first, second, third, and what the time delays should be, and how fast to deploy them. Based on stuff like what the steering wheel angle is, whats the yaw rate of the car, whats the pitch, is the car accelerating or decelerating, how much pedal is the driver using (and which pedal). With the advanced warning you can get a much better model, because you can monitor everything *now* and continually, rather than every 100-200ms. Which would lead to a preprogrammed sequence with minimal "extra" data, which will start once it recognises that an impact has happened.
(Precharging brakes changes the pedal response in some scenarios, to support slamming the brakes on and *really* meaning it. Rather than what a lot of people do which is lift off a little bit, for reasons i'm not aware of. Which makes the crash more likely and more than likely worse when it does happen.)
Right. That makes more sense.
Rather than what a lot of people do which is lift off a little bit, for reasons i’m not aware of.
This will be people who learned to drive pre-ABS. You put your foot to the boards and start sliding, every fibre in your body is screaming "you aren't slowing down, press harder!" but the correct thing to do is let off slightly to allow the wheels to start turning and regain traction.
This will be people who learned to drive pre-ABS.
That's one group, there's also *loads* of crashes with people too young to have learnt to drive without ABS. It's just a weird thing that happens. I suspect it's partially because they are surprised by the amount of braking you can actually get when you *really* want to stop from speed. And how much stuff shifts around in the car. Loudly.
"Assumed knowledge" handed down from parents, don't brake too hard or you'll skid?
/shrug
Why do drivers of luxury cars need so much safety tech?? Drivers of BMWs, Audis, Mercedes, Range Rovers etc are well known for being such careful drivers full of empathy for other slower drivers.
“Assumed knowledge” handed down from parents, don’t brake too hard or you’ll skid?
Or watching their thousand quid mobile phone disappear into the footwell, followed by a litre of mocha focka wocka starbucks?
Why do drivers of luxury cars need so much safety tech?? Drivers of BMWs, Audis, Mercedes, Range Rovers etc are well known for being such careful drivers full of empathy for other slower drivers.
Much of it's legally mandated, so it'll be on poverty spec Dacias eventually. Luxury and premium brands do it first (usually before it's legally required to sell cars) because it's easier to amortise the cost of parts/software/testing in an expensive car than a cheap car. Also they tend to do more regular, and more thorough facelifts/updates, which may also trigger the legal mandate to have it fitted. (Some updates are only considered to be "decorative" so not sufficiently new car ish to require it to meet *all* the new regs, just yet.)
A lot of the gadgets can be trinkets, or for driving pleasure – or for safety…
Emergency braking for collision avoidance
Warning systems to let you know if someone is approaching too quick at the rear
Voice controlled systems so you aren’t messing about with your stereo
Warning systems to tell passengers not to open a door if a cyclist is approaching
Junction surveillance to give an extra pair of eyes when, lets say – a cyclist might be approaching that’s difficult to see on a restricted view junction
Or just don't use a phone whilst whilst driving?
elsewhere on STW it seems ok to spend £4k on a bike
There’s a £12k bike in this thread.
Buy whatever car you like, love, enjoy and can afford. If your nearly new car falls into a bracket where you pay a few more pennies tax… shrug it off and get on with enjoying your purchase. If you can’t afford it, buy something cheaper.
Or just don’t use a phone whilst whilst driving?
Not sure why you went to the effort of quoting me, when nowhere in my post did I mention the use of a phone?
It seems like the shitbox drivers are losing their minds in this thread and just coming out with random words now.... 😉
elsewhere on STW it seems ok to spend £4k on a bike when you can also buy a bike for £400 both have two wheels saddle etc etc. No frothing there <shrug>
The sticky PSA thread has people going "absolute bargain" over a pair of bicycle wheels costing seven hundred quid. At that price point I'd expect them to come fitted to an entire bike. And pedals.
Which, y'know, is fine and all, but puts the snobbery arguments into perspective. A bike is just a tool, amirite?
