[Closed] Low carb/Paleo vegetarian diet?

My wife is veggy and we started a low-carb eating plan about 6 weeks ago. She does eat fish though - dunno what your thoughts are on that.

We have one "treat" day every week when we can have what whatever we want and still have muesli in the mornings, so "low" carb, not "no" carb. Lots of veg, cauliflower "rice", a lovely low-carb chocolate cake, eggs, some cheeses (incl. Haloumi and Paneer) and she seems to manage just fine. I still eat meat, so supplement that with some other stuff too.

We're shifting weight slowly but managing to keep it off. I'm 5'7" and my target was simply to get out of the "overweight" BMI category. I managed that after 4 weeks (10 lbs lost) so I'm happy just to aim for 11.2 or 11.3 and leave it at that. Mind you' I've also started with weights to get some upper body strength back so I expect it might climb a little anyway.

FWIW,

as a vegi i prob eat far too many carbs for my own good such as a massive bowl of breakfast cereal in the mornings, pasta, baked tatties, rice, bread etc...etc...

You are me AICMFP. I live off carbs, protein is an effort. At 5'10" and ~11 stone, it seems to be working for me thus far.

She does eat fish though - dunno what your thoughts are on that.

I've been a strict vegi for 24yrs and never liked meat/fish so turning vegi at 17 was not a problem for me - i've never ate bacon in my life so i wouldn't know what i'm missing 😀 , i don't eat gelatine or any dead animal products but i do like cheese n' bio yoghurt etc - don't drink milk as i prefer soya milk so i dunno if i'll find it hard to get enough protein but on reading through some of the ultra endurance veg/vegan athletes blogs online they seem to thrive on such a diet and have no issues with protein depletion or suchlike, if they can cover 60 - 80 miles a day running on such a diet then i should be able to survive from one meal to the next without passing out surely.

Eating lots of veg would suit me fine and if your 10lbs of weight loss over 4 weeks is anything to go by then i could live with that, one thing i have read online (so it "may" be true) is that your body when consuming a high carb diet is more adept at burning carbs for fuel so thus you have to exhaust your carb/glycogen supplies before you start to burn fat, thus when you eat a low carb/non carb diet then you body recognises that it needs to burn fat as fuel and over time it becomes more adept at this method of fuelling which sounds like a win situation to me, i may have oversimplified the process but as far as i can tell that's the gist of what i picked up with my few hours of web surfing so far.

I'll have a read through some other online info but i think i'm gonna give it a try for a couple of months with no cheating allowed and see if it makes a difference, hope so....at the age of 41 my 32" waist is gradually creeping up to a 33" and i have the appearance of odd lumps that when i poke them appear to wobble.

[quote=somafunk ]one thing i have read online (so it "may" be true) is that your body when consuming a high carb diet is more adept at burning carbs for fuel so thus you have to exhaust your carb/glycogen supplies before you start to burn fat, thus when you eat a low carb/non carb diet then you body recognises that it needs to burn fat as fuel and over time it becomes more adept at this method of fuelling which sounds like a win situation to me, i may have oversimplified the process but as far as i can tell that's the gist of what i picked up with my few hours of web surfing so far.
That seems to have worked for me - but it took a bit longer for my Mrs body to adapt. One thing I have noticed is that I've become a lot more tolerant of a grumbling, empty stomach. Previously, as soon as I started to feel empty, I'd feel my energy levels dropping. Now, I just seem to be able to carry on as normal for much longer. I still think it's right to be adding in some carbs during hard exercise though.

Yep. I started late January on the Low carb, high fat diet. I still eat meat, mind. I cut out all sugar too. The weight just fell off me. I've never been fat but I did put on a lot of weight in a month over christmas due to no exercise and some pretty unpleasant pigging out on sweets, chocolate and beer. No idea why i did that.

Anyway, I struggled to get into one of my suits which was always snug but now I couldn't get into the trousers.

Oops.

So I immediately cut out sugar and high carb food after reading up on Paleo. Within two weeks I had lost a load of weight. I've continued and those trousers now need a belt. I've actually got quite skinny to the extent where a guy in the changing room at work has crossed the forbidden boundary, he's commented on my weight!!!!

I still drink beer on a weekend and eat pizza on Saturday night and have a roast dinner.

Sounds good and positive so far from the responses, cheers peeps that's just what i wanted to hear (especially the beer and pizza bit) but i work as a chocolatier for 2 days per week.......aww poor-poor me eh, just watch the sympathy roll in 🙄 .

I have to taste fillings/ganaches and test the chocolate for bite/texture and melt to make sure it's in "temper" so i can work with it, this may be a problem but i could get someone else to taste it i suppose but i "know" what my ganaches should taste like and what texture/melt they should have, i doubt a small amount of sugar would make that much difference to such a strict diet though or would it?, i prob eat/taste 60g of chocolate a day and dab taste 10 different fillings on an average day but if i'm developing a new ganache i may taste loads n' loads...Hmmm - i'll see how the paleo eating method works out (i'm not calling it a diet, it's a change of eating) before i worry bout it.

As for other sugars in my diet i don't ever have biscuits or sweets in the house and i only take a small lump of brown sugar in my espresso's and i could quite happily do without sugar in it so that won't be a problem, i don't use shop bought sauces or suchlike so i guess i don't have a great deal of sugar in my diet to start with, i bet i'll still suffer from sugar withdrawal though if others accounts are anything to go by.

I did have a wee panic just now as went into the kitchen to make a cup of tea, i spied my bag of twiglets on the counter and thought "no more twiglets.....sniff...sniff..." , they are my friends with their little crunchy knobbly bits and oh so moreish but after i finish this sacrificial bag "nom...nom....nom......nom" they'll be no more twiglets passing my door or crawling into my shopping trolley.

My eating plan starts tomorrow, scrambled eggs and coriander with a large portobello baked mushroom for breakfast....but no toast as i've just thrown my loaf out for the birds.

😕

I have to taste fillings/ganaches and test the chocolate for bite/texture and melt to make sure it's in "temper" so i can work with it, this may be a problem

I apologise in advance for saying this but,

Have you considered spitting rather than swallowing?

She is not a vegetarian as that is an animal

Moreover,

She is not a vegetarian, she's a pescatarian. Saying you're a vegetarian who eats fish is a bit like saying you're a non-smoker apart from cigars.

Pedantism aside, this sort of thing causes problems for the rest of us when restaurants are lead to believe that a tuna dish is a great "vegetarian option."

My eating plan starts tomorrow, scrambled eggs and coriander with a large portobello baked mushroom for breakfast....but no toast as i've just thrown my loaf out for the birds.

Have you considered porridge?

Pedantism aside

I bet someone tries to correct that to [i]pedantry[/i]!

I like porridge but it's heavy on the carbs, 30g of carbs for every 50g of oats so i guess that's a no-no for a low carb diet, i like scrambled eggs wi coriander and a bit of red onion/cheese on the top and portobello mushrooms are nice when baked so that's gonna be my breakfast of choice....hungry just thinking bout it......only 6 hrs to breakfast so i'd best toddle off to bed.

[i]I like porridge but it's heavy on the carbs, 30g of carbs for every 50g of oats [/i]

Any diet you embark on has to be sustainable, otherwise you're wasting your time. Porridge (like most food TBH) isn't "bad" itself. 30g of carbs is neither here nor there, most 'balanced' diets recommendations include about 200-250g of carbs for the 'average' man, and not convinced paleo man was cooking scrambled eggs, but Im willing to bet they made a gruel out of oats....

We've been eating bread for 10,000 years. What's out of whack now is the calorie density, sugar and salt, and the amount people are eating, not the type of food.

178cm, 75kg. vegetarian FWIW.

Any diet you embark on has to be sustainable

This is my approach, and infact I would say give up the idea of a 'diet', as this suggests you will return to the ways which got you to where you don't want to be.. Don't diet,just change the way you eat...
I'm 39, been Veggie since I was 14 with fluctuating weight for all of that time.

I had some initial success with losing/keeping weight off when I looked into the whole IDave thing on here for a while, although obviously I did a bit of a modified version of it to allow for me being veggie. I quite liked the idea that I would be strict with myself for all but one day a week though and just not worry about it for one day.

I actually didn't find the way I was eating then sustainable, though I did lose a bit of weight.
I have since just concentrated my efforts towards the 'Low-GI' theories which really seem to make an awful lot of sense to me. I read up a lot and also happened to have some in-work training which concurred with my findings.

So I now eat a fairly low GI diet and on Saturdays I just basically eat what I want. It's worked really well so far. I've lost a fair bit of weight in the couple of months I've been doing it and folks have commented on several occasions.

I've stopped drinking all the fizzy diet drinks I used to throughout the day and I've stopped sugar in my tea, which takes a surprisingly shorter time to get used to than I thought.

This book is great for gorgeous recipes..
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I also was drinking the odd beer or more during the week which has also stopped. I now just binge drink like everyone else! 😉
But yeah, it all helps to keep the weight off.

I eat very, very healthily. Tons of greens and nuts and pulses, B-vit supplements in case etc. Despite all this I have been feeling low in energy sometimes so had a blood test, but nothing missing it would seem. Totally healthy. Maybe just at a low ebb.

Recently cycled 125 miles over two days on winter towpaths from the Midlands to London so I'm kinda thinking my endurance isn't too far off the mark.

I think this sort of concept really makes sense. We eat way too much processed crap these days and I think this takes us back toward something our bodies are more in tune with.

Quick snapshot of a typical day...
Porridge for breakfast with unsweetened soya milk, cinnamon and fruit and nuts.
Bean salad with quinoia and roasted veg at lunch perhaps.
Grilled mushrooms, enchilladas, salads, roast veg and goats cheese etc for dinner maybe...
Nuts for snacks...
😀

[i]Recently cycled 125 miles over two days on winter towpaths [/i]

Top work... 😀

I think in addition, on here (as cyclists) we have a squewed version of being 'healthy' and 'fit' when what we really mean is "by any other measure, having a reasonably impressive level of endurance and energy" I've lost count of the amount of threads on here that start with "I felt really flat after my 160 mile 20mph average roadie* is my diet to blame"...

*I exaggerate for effect, but not by much....

this sort of thing causes problems for the rest of us when restaurants are lead to believe that a tuna dish is a great "vegetarian option."

+1

Agree with paleo diet but one step at a time for me - I'm gluten free after a recommendation from my chiropractor. Many of the people I know now are and everyone who has tried it has been blown away by how they feel now. I could NEVER go back. That's no beer, pizza etc. etc. Brutal but that's against no joint pain, lethargic and feeling crap all the time (although I didn't know how crap I felt for much of the time!).

Seriously, it's a revelation and I even spoke to the GP about it, to taunt him about all the people I know who no longer have terrible skin problems, semi-paralysed etc. who are now all fine and he pointed me to the British Medical Journal and told me he knew and that there "is a storm brewing - 70% of the population would benefit from this"!

The best resource that I know of for info on paleo lifestyle is Marks Daily Apple- if you sign up he sends you regular updates, info etc- really interesting and well informed- links to proper research etc well worth a look.

Just one question - was it Palaeolithic life that was described as 'nasty, brutish and short'?

Nearly 30 years on a veggi diet, 99% vegan in fact. I've never worried too much about carbs 5' 5" and 8st 4lb so it doesn't seem to have made me fat! I have been favouring carbs from potatoes and pulses rather than rice pasta and bread recently. I'm not sure it's made a difference but I'm feeling pretty good on it so I'll stick with it for a while.

Just one question - was it Palaeolithic life that was described as 'nasty, brutish and short'?

No, it was life in the early colonies in America.

Anyway, OP, have you not heard of this iDave diet thing? There've been a few short threads on it on here I think.

It's basically Paeleo but without the fruit.

One point though:

We eat way too much [b]processed crap[/b] these days and I think this takes us back toward something our bodies are more in tune with.

Quick snapshot of a typical day...
Porridge for breakfast with unsweetened [b]soya milk[/b],

What's soya milk if not processed crap?

What's soya milk if not processed crap?

Yes, I see your point of course and you are right, which is why I said we eat 'way too much'.

It's very difficult to avoid processed altogether these days. It's a fact of modern life, especially if you don't want to drink dairy milk, but anything you can do to reduce your reliance on it is better. I suppose I could just have water in my porridge... 🙂

Incidentally, you CAN make your own soya milk at home, but it's very labour intensive and has a very short shelf-life, but in that form, is very good for you and free from potentially harmful processing.. Not for me though, I want to ride my bike.. 😀

I don't eat too much processed stuff if possible but I'm only human and like convenience too! If I can take steps to reduce what I use, then that's good enough I reckon. At least I'm not living completely blinkered then. But yeah, processed food will inevitably find its way into your diet unless you want eating to become a full time job!
🙂

That is a lot os stuff up there, but I was Slow carb for a year and lost quite a lot of weight and now I have been paleo for 2 years. It's the best change that I have ever made in my life.

Don't eat processed foods, avoid foods with sugar don't eat grains.

it's easy and if you make an effort to get more good quality sleep, it will transform your mental and physical wellness.

Check out robbwolf.com and bulletproofexec.com as well, it's another goldmine.

I actually prefer porridge with water. I've found I can do without milk altogether but it's hard to give up the last little bit of milk for coffee. Cheese on the other hand I find hard - it gives body and sustenance to so many otherwise unfulfilling meals.

but in that form, is very good for you

There's some debate as to whether or not the soya itself is good for you, due to all the phyto-oestrogens.

I can't eat cheese. Only problem that ever really causes me is eating out. Next time you're in a restaurant, look at the veggie offerings and see how many have cheese in them; I'll wager it's probably "all of them." There seems to be a train of thought that goes "no meat? Bung a load of cheese in instead."

Well, it's what I'd do 🙂

I know how you feel though. Try getting a lunchtime sandwich without mayonnaise in it.

Cheers peeps for the positive comments and the weblinks/books regarding the change of eating, i thought i 'd be seen as a crank but far from it it appears, had nice big breakfast, a couple of espresso's and about to head out for a long road ride on the bike seeing as it's my day off.

And i know what you say when you mean it's not a diet, i've been banging on for years with my mates regarding their so called "diets" as what they need is to change their eating habits rather than rely on a short term fix, i think it'll be pretty easy to change my eating habits as i'm pretty arsid, when i decide to do something i do it without question so fingers crossed it works out.

I'm not giving up my espresso though 😀

Just ordered that Rose Elliot book!

I've been sorta veg idieting - which meant a lot of Quorn and bit of a restriction on variety. Hoping said book will help.

I am not particularly strict but reducing cheese, bread, beer and potatoes intake seems to help alot.

If only I could get rid of my dark chocolate addiction!

Just ordered that Rose Elliot book!

Strangely there is a few recipes in there that feature pasta. But I think as she goes through in the foreword, if you can reduce the overall gi rating of your meal, then thats better than nowt...

I wouldn't worry about dark chocolate. A couple of pieces of 85% has hardly any sugar in it and a lot of good for you stuff actually.

Is this paleo/low carb diet not just the infamous idave diet, or am I missing something?

[i]am I missing something?[/i]

Yeap. But do not fear, you're in good company ^^^^^

Is this paleo/low carb diet not just the infamous idave diet, or am I missing something?

It's similar. Paeleo includes fruit, but it's basically the same idea reached from different principles.

Paeleo is about only eating things our stone age ancestors would have had access to (ie before agriculture) based on the idea that our bodies will be best evolved to deal with that diet and it will therefore be best for us.

iDave is mostly about minimising the amount of insulin your pancreas has to produce, on the grounds that insulin inhibits the burning of fat and makes you want more sugar.

Funnily enough they overlap almost entirely.

big difference is that there are no beans or lentils in paleo and some people have high fat dairy (me for one!)

Oh, I didn't realise legume were out of paeleo. That must make it hard.

[i]Yeap. But do not fear, you're in good company ^^^^^ [/i]

Oops, missed that comment from the wanderer before I posted 🙂

I lost about 6-7 kgs on the idave diet so was happy with that. I didn't follow it to the letter of the law though as still had a splash of milk in tea & coffee but did drastically reduce refined sugars/cut out all bread and cheese though.

I miss the lack of fruit (and cheese - I love cheese) so the paleo diet is somewhat appealing.

They still had Subway in the Stone Age though right? 😉

You may be interested to learn that the only study into insulin index that's available online rated cheese as very low. Which means it's IN in my book 🙂

Although go easy cos it is calorie dense.

I have been primal/paleo for just over 1 year now and feel much better for it.

"Paleo" is an extremely broad church and means different things to different people. Personally I feel that diet - although important - is only a part of it. Keeping as active and possible, minimising stress and maximising your enjoyment of life are also very important and vital to the mental aspect of overall health.

I would also not worry about "what cavemen did" or even about sticking 100% to Paleo ideals. As long as you can take enough away to modify your overall lifestyle for the better then you will be taking a positive steps.

Ditching refined food (sugars in particular) is the most important part of the diet IMO. I felt considerably better mentally after I did that - I would say my overall mood improved, I found it easier to concentrate and get to sleep, etc.

Carbs are a contentious issue and IMO it is worth experimenting to find your personal "sweet spot". You probably want to eat less if you are trying to reduce bod fat (maybe under 100g/day) possibly upping them to around 150g after you reach your target weight. Then there are people like this chap ([url= http://eatingacademy.com/ ]http://eatingacademy.com/[/url]) who claim a VERY low carb (ketogenic) diet works for them long term. The main problem with carbs IMO is that they provide a lot of energy but very few micronutrients so you are better off replacing them with e.g. lots of veggies. Of course if you are very active and already eat a lot of veggies then they are a good source of extra calories. Sweet potatoes are your friends here!

With regards to being a veggie: yes I'm sure it's possible. Just make sure you're getting enough protein. You may want to look into protein supplements (whey if you eat dairy, soy if not). If you're going lower carb then make sure you increase the amount of fat you eat to compensate (the worst thing you can do is starve yourself) as you still need to get enough calories from somewhere.

I would recommend the website Mark's Daily Apple for the regular blog posts. Stay away from the forums though, they make this place look positively sane 🙂

amen to that brother!

My mental health is much better, my physical health is better and I am generally a happier person.

Now if you can figure out how to get grains out of your kids diet, i'd love to hear. Our youngest has had part of his large intestine removed because of a genetic problem. He does OK, but I think he'd be better off without the grains. unfortunately it's simply too difficult to control what he eats, even with my wife on board with the idea, the daycare and grand parents are more or less unable to comprehend life without bread.

Tell a little white lie and tell people you've just found out he's allergic to wheat?

So if paleo is pre-agriculture, does it have NO vegetables? Meat you kill and eat, fruit you pick, but carrots are farmed?

it is worth experimenting to find your personal "sweet spot".

See, I got the piss ripped out of me mercilessly for suggesting that I might be one of those people who might need more carbs than others for the type of riding and training I do....

I can go fairly low carb but my top end power when riding goes through the floor, and if I go too low I lose the ability to do anything other than pootle really slowly. It was like having some kind of debilitating illness.

Re vegetables - there are many wild vegetables that cavemen would've eaten, and that some people around the world still eat. Modern farmed veg are derived from them and are considered similar enough for it not to matter. Except I think sweetcorn, which has been bred to have tons of fructose in it.

Re vegetables - there are many wild vegetables that cavemen would've eaten, and that some people around the world still eat. Modern farmed veg are derived from them and are considered similar enough for it not to matter. Except I think sweetcorn, which has been bred to have tons of fructose in it.

Well no, cos they ate loads of bread and potatoes. Those things are not ideal apart from on grounds of cost.

I can go fairly low carb but my top end power when riding goes through the floor, and if I go too low I lose the ability to do anything other than pootle really slowly. It was like having some kind of debilitating illness.

However there are a couple of points that might be worth considering. How much time have you given your body to adapt to a lower-carb regime? I've heard several times that peoples' bodies have taken a few weeks for their metabolism to adapt, during which time you might have to ease off the intensity and/or accept a performance loss. I have also often heard of the "zone of misery" where people are eating too few carbs for decent performance but too many to enter ketosis. Have you tried a very low carb (ketogenic) diet?

If you've not come across it before then this chap's blog is well worth reading [url= http://eatingacademy.com/how-a-low-carb-diet-affected-my-athletic-performance ]http://eatingacademy.com/how-a-low-carb-diet-affected-my-athletic-performance[/url]
From memory the conclusion seemed to be (for him) that a low carb diet did indeed decrease his top-end power slightly (although nowhere near as much as you describe) but the trade off was that his lactate threshold was massive increased along with his endurance at less-than-peak output. Interesting stuff!

Seems bit like my theory of "eat like your grandparents did".

As molgrips says though, you would IMO be better off replacing white potatoes with sweet ones or other root veg and ditching the bread entirely.

mollys a natural sprinter not endurance. less than peak output is not desired i'm guessing.

"A 2011 ranking by U.S. News & World Report, involving a panel of 22 experts, ranked the Paleo diet lowest of the 20 diets evaluated based on factors including health, weight-loss and ease of following.[26] These results were repeated in the 2012 survey, in which the diet tied with the Dukan diet for the lowest ranking out of 25 diets; U.S. News & World Report stated that their experts "took issue with the diet on every measure".[26] However, one expert involved in the ranking stated that a "true Paleo diet might be a great option: very lean, pure meats, lots of wild plants. The modern approximations… are far from it."[26] He added that "duplicating such a regimen in modern times would be difficult."[26]"

mollys a natural sprinter not endurance. less than peak output is not desired i'm guessing.

[b]@onehundredthidiot[/b] seen that report before, it is a load of nonsense as far as I'm concerned. Remember that primal/paleo is a lifestyle [b]not[/b] a crash diet. It can't be evaluated in a few weeks/months or at all in fact if the diet is the only part adopted. As I have stated previously the diet is only one part of the whole and I have found immense benefit from the lifestyle change.

How much time have you given your body to adapt to a lower-carb regime?

Well (at the risk of repeating myself) when I was in Germany I had an 18 mile flat commute, done 3-4 times a week. I stuck to the diet rigidly for 3-4 weeks (with energy drink on the commute) and lost weight, but my performance dropped off to the point where I could not physically ride at more than a granny pootle. So I introduced more simple carbs around the riding and it levelled off, I lost 10kg or so but if I tried to do a 10 mile TT pace I'd be fine for about 10 mins then just die completely in a few minutes.

I did it for three months or so, and at the end I thought sod it, ate 3-4 twixes a day and a couple of cokes (but kept the slow carb breakfasts and meals); I lost another 2kg and got loads of pace back.

Fell off the wagon for a good while, then managed some good results in a three week period by doing 10 mile flat out commutes having fasted, then eating loads of simple carbs afterwards. Lost 3 really tricky kg but also got much faster in the process.

Amongst lots of other things, insulin is anabolic. I find that if I do things that would produce lots of insulin it really promotes recovery, which itself uses up a lot of calories. If I do a really hard ride and don't drop loads of carbs immediately afterwards, it takes me ages to recover. I tend to stay tired until the next time I eat simple carbs then I suddenly get better.

My next challenge is to get used to taking on the carbs I need WITHOUT the sugar. In addition to the insulin/fat business, the sugar messes with my brain making me into a junkie.

The whole point of a low-carb diet as far as I understand it is to promote fat-burning as your primary energy source. Surely by consuming energy drink throughout your commute you totally sabotage that? I would definitely recommend giving the eatingacademy site a read.

Zilog, not a report its a set of studies. Just thought I'd throw it in the pot. Any proscribed diet has the potential to head to fabbiness and therefore potential danger. Although our metabolisms are not quite up to the modern quick carb/kj/protien fix they are getting, they may well have moved on slightly from the paleolithic (see tolerance of alcohol as an example).

Sure, I understand that. Personally I don't take the "paleo" aspect literally as I don't think it makes a lot of sense. I interpret it much as the poster earlier (to paraphrase) "do as your grandparents did" i.e. be more active & avoid processed, unnatural foodstuffs.

The whole point of a low-carb diet as far as I understand it is to promote fat-burning as your primary energy source. Surely by consuming energy drink throughout your commute you totally sabotage that?

Well yes, at the time I wasn't aware of the '45 minute rule' ie not taking on carbs before and during the first 45 mins of exercise, to encourage your body to start using up fat. I've found this very effective. However I didn't totally sabotage the weight loss, but I could maybe have been a lot more effective. The riding I did later (the 10 mile commute) was more effective as combined weight loss and fitness gains.

Moving around jobs and locations a lot is interesting, but it's a real pain in training terms. Just as you get a good routine going it all goes up in the air again.

I have also often heard of the "zone of misery" where people are eating too few carbs for decent performance but too many to enter ketosis. Have you tried a very low carb (ketogenic) diet?

Just saw this.

No, I haven't tried ketosis. Interesting.. but would I permanently change my body composition? I rather like being a sprinter, my favourite kind of riding is fast technical stuff where you have to pile on the power for short sharp climbs and lots of acceleration. I wouldn't want to lose that ability. However I think that this goes hand in hand with a tendency to gain fat, but I'm not sure if it's directly related or because riding like that depletes my blood sugar which makes me crave sugar, which allows me to ride like that and so on in a vicious circle. It's also entirely possible that my sweet tooth over the years has led me to ride like that rather than the other way round!

However I didn't totally sabotage the weight loss, but I could maybe have been a lot more effective.

re: ketosis. I tried it for a month and bar a hiccup in the first week (which I put down to lack of hydration) I was surprised that I didn't notice any difference in performance at all. Granted I'm not doing 10 mile TTs but I do commute every day by bike, lift weights 3x per week as well as run inc. sprint intervals. I did lose a few lbs of fat though.

I don't see why you would change your body composition whilst in ketosis. Most people do it for a few weeks/months to help switch over generally to a more fat-biased metabolism, although there are those who (claim they) are ketosis permanently. The chemical process of energy generation in the body is something I find pretty complicated and have only recently stated exploring properly but as I understand it ATP and lactate generation is not affected by ketosis so short-term explosive energy i.e. sprinting should not suffer.

Sprinting ability is largely genetic as I understand it and you might even find it improves if you can use a ketogenic or low-carb diet to increase lean muscle mass whilst decreasing body fat. You seem pretty open to experimentation (ooh-er!) so it might be one more thing to have a go at?

I will consider the ketogenic option. Although I think the riding whilst fasted has a similar effect - I certainly need to take on far far fewer carbs during riding than I ever did before and still ride well.

I'm talking about sabotaging your ability to use fat for fuel instead of carbs.

Yes, and you are probably right. I don't know if I am more interested in fat loss or fat burning to be honest. Of course the latter is important, but really if I could ride like I do now but be 15kg lighter I'd be extremely happy with my performance.

You should (theoretically) be able to run almost entirely off of fat up to the lactose-threshold point of intensity

Hmm as I understood it, you still need some carbs even to burn fat, but I don't know how much or if that varies person to person. I have had blood lactate tests, and after doing some base training I did run off fat up to my lactate threshold. But in Germany most of my riding was between that and my anaerobic threshold.

ATP and lactate generation is not affected by ketosis so short-term explosive energy i.e. sprinting should not suffer

Well - there's sprinting and there's sprinting in cycling terms, isn't there? In cycling a 90 minute XC race is considered short, whereas running on the track a 12 minute race is one of the longest distance races.

Some XC races are a series of many short sprints (Gorricks for example) so sprinting comes in handy but it's not really a sprint event as such.

[i]Well (at the risk of repeating myself) when I was in Germany I had an 18 mile flat commute, done 3-4 times a week. I stuck to the diet rigidly for 3-4 weeks [b](with energy drink on the commute)[/b][/i]

[img] [/img]

I'll knock in >40 miles a day on water.
Grips, its a mind issue for you. You aint [i]special[/i] you just [i]Think[/i] you are.

[i]Sprinting ability is largely genetic as I understand it[/i]

Please, don't encourage him.

[i]Yes, and you are probably right. I don't know if I am more interested in fat loss or fat burning to be honest. Of course the latter is important, but really if I could ride like I do now but be 15kg lighter I'd be extremely happy with my performance.[/i]

That makes NO sense !. If you rode as you do now, after losing 16Kg (one Kg added for extra cheese), you'd have effectively gotten slower. Madness.

[i]Hmm as I understood it, you still need some carbs even to burn fat, but I don't know how much or if that varies person to person[/i]

Yes, but so little as not to be a distraction, you're body will get you through. Its your obsession with carbs thats hindering your weight loss / fat loss. Which I'd have thought you'd be interested in as a lighter Molgrips would be a faster one and it is all about your awesome speedyness, isn't it ?.

[i]Well - there's sprinting and there's sprinting[/i]

No, its the same. Sprinting, is.... sprinting. Anything else, is not sprinting.

🙁

That makes NO sense !. If you rode as you do now, after losing 16Kg (one Kg added for extra cheese), you'd have effectively gotten slower. Madness.

I meant if I produced the same power as now.

Its your obsession with carbs thats hindering your weight loss / fat loss.

FFS not this again. Look, I started out doing it by the book, and it didn't work out that well. You seem to think this is all in my head, well, whatever. You weren't there so you may think what you like. I'm not (usually) obsessed with carbs, but I am quite concerned with performance, and I have proved many times over that not enough carbs harms my riding. That is, the kind of riding I like to do. Which, by the sound of it, is not the same as what you like to do.

And sprinting is not just sprinting. 100m runners do three or four 10 second efforts in a day with lots of waiting. Physiologically, it's not at all the same as powering up the umpteenth short climb after an hour of riding on the limit.

[i] but I am quite concerned with performance[/i]

You are not top level athlete, you is over weight, middle age IT guru that calls other people, silly.

[i]I have [s]proved[/s] [b]imagined[/b] many times over that not enough carbs harms my [b]illusion about my[/b] riding[/i]
FTFY

[i]That is, the kind of riding I like to do. Which, by the sound of it, is not the same as what you like to do[/i]

What style of riding do I like to do ?.

[i]And sprinting is not just sprinting. 100m runners do three or four 10 second efforts in a day with lots of waiting. Physiologically, it's not at all the same as powering up the umpteenth short climb after an hour of riding on the limit.[/i]

Still wrong. Don't focus outside the body, look inside the body.
When you sprint, you sprint, end of.

Whoah this is getting a bit personal.

Sounds like you know all about me, so there's no point in replying.

When you sprint, you sprint, end of.

ATP or glycogen? Are ATP levels the same after 90 mins of hard riding as after 2 hours of standing about?

[i]Whoah this is getting a bit personal.[/i]

Agreed, you run about calling people silly.

After giving myself a groin hernia, I took elements of the anti-inflammatory diet on board and simple removal of refined flour, starch and sugar.

Dropped a significant amount of weight without really trying... although lost a bunch of muscle mass as i have been unable to exercise effectively since christmas.
If I can keep a sensible diet going once I'm back to a proper exercise schedule, I'm pretty confident it will be a good thing. Helps too that the kids are eating healthy without us being the food police.

Paleo says 'cross-fit' to me.. which is a cult I try and avoid 😉
Have friends who have bought into the paleo/x-fit mindset though and they've never been healthier! So, it works for some.

Paleo and vegetarian doesn't seem like there's much left to eat though..

[i]ATP or glycogen? Are ATP levels the same after 90 mins of hard riding as after 2 hours of standing about?[/i]

What, in relation to how much carbohydrate you've ingested ?
🙄

[i]Paleo and vegetarian doesn't seem like there's much left to eat though..[/i]

I think its the concept regarding paleo that serve best, then applied in a modern context. Its not a religion here.

Chocolate is probably a Neolithic food. But it Stays !.
🙂

Not paleo but I've been on a keto diet for the past month and feel much better for it! Much less sluggish (energy levels seem much more even throughout the day) and hunger pangs seem a lot more manageable! Haven't lost much weight on the scales but have gone down an inch on my waist and moobs noticeably smaller, so result! Think it would be really hard without meat though..

What, in relation to how much carbohydrate you've ingested ?

No, in general.

hunger pangs seem a lot more manageable!

[i]feel much better for it[/i]

Good stuff 🙂

[i]Think it would be really hard without meat though..[/i]

Yeap, theres a reason for that.
So meat is in too, as far as I'm concerned.
😉

If we could move past the solo and molgrips show....

[i]Well no, cos they ate loads of bread and potatoes.[/i]

Erm, well actually mostly they didn't, your mum and dad and their mum and dad eat significantly smaller portions than people do now, hence why nearly 25% of the population is overweight.

Anyway. This
[i]Well (at the risk of repeating myself) when I was in Germany I had an 18 mile flat commute, done 3-4 times a week. I stuck to the diet rigidly for 3-4 weeks (with energy drink on the commute)[/i]

And this

[i]FFS not this again. Look, I started out doing it by the book, [/i]

Apper to contradict each other molgrips....?

[i]No, in general.[/i]

But you're so special. [i]in general[/i] can't apply to you.
Thats what you tell us.
😉

But whos going to sprint after 90 mins of riding and have anyone give a toss ?. Only Pros, and you aint one.

[i]If we could move past the [s]solo and[/s] molgrips show....[/i]

Agreed. The [i] I'm different and nothing works for me as it might for others[/i].
Is getting really old now.

Previously (on a high refined sugar diet) I would get hungry after not eating for a few hours and the hunger would become all consuming and almost painful after a while (like when people say "I'm starving"). This literally never happens now.

That's my experience too. I'm still hungry most of the time but it's a low grade thing that's easy to forget. However if I eat something sweet, however small, then the urge gets really strong. But what's worse is that if someone makes a suggestion about some form of desert, I suddenly get really insanely hungry and it's a big struggle to beat it down again!

Well no, cos they ate loads of bread and potatoes.

Erm, well actually mostly they didn't,

I meant relatively. A portion of starch was the main stay of a meal, because it's cheap. 'Fill up on bread' they were told, as I was too. I don't think my parents ate significantly smaller portions than NORMAL meals now. Also, as kids, they ate a lot of sweets. They were however running around outside dawn til dusk.

My grandparents probably didn't eat lots of sweets. However my Nan was overweight, smoked and had a heart attack in her 60s so I doubt she's a good role model. Not sure people were as super healthy back then as you seem to be suggesting.

The I'm different and nothing works for me as it might for others.

You paint it that way. I'm saying that people vary a lot, I have no idea why you have such a hard time with that idea since it's so blatantly obvious. Maybe it lets you get on your high horse and patronise the **** out of me?

[i]But what's worse is that if someone makes a suggestion about some form of desert, I suddenly get really insanely hungry and it's a big struggle to beat it down again![/i]

Wasn't I saying its a mind issue for you ?.
🙄

a diet thread with solos useful contribution...ah all is well in the world

If we could move past the [s]solo [/s]and molgrips show....

Agreed.

What's soya milk if not processed crap?

It's not ALL a mind issue. Because my riding suffers. Up there I was just talking about hunger pangs. I'm trying to say that if I conquer the urges and don't eat the carbs, I get slower on the bike.

And if you're telling me I'm just feigning weakness becuase I [i]imagine[/i] I need more carbs, well.. you're being silly I'm afraid.

[i]You paint it that way.[/i]

No, you add cheese to stuff, go figure !.

[i]Maybe it lets you get on your high horse and patronise the **** out of me[/i]

Is that like, errrrm... calling people, silly ?.

Right, I'm off home for some fasted [i]exercise[/i] (if I were Mol-Awesome I'd call it training) followed by a dinner of meat and veg.

On the subject of bike performance etc, the first couple of weeks were really hard but I've settled into it now. Normally just do a quick 10miler and to start with I was totally drained/bonking about 5 miles in. Now I can gothe whole ride without feeling too bad at all, gonna start upping the mileage back to my "usual" soon as well 🙂

Someone said right at the start, any 'diet' that is not sustainable is pointless. That's why traditional dieting is so hard, you are in effect starving yourself. That'll never last. Stupid.

In fact if you have a diet which completely excludes something you love, why are you doing it? Life isn't about getting somewhere, it's about journeying through it enjoying things as you go. You can reach a happy compromise where you follow a sustainable regime most of the time and then just do that thing you enjoy without damaging the process. It's OK to chug pizza once a week, don't worry about it. Really enjoy eating bags of sweets, it won't tear you off the rails if you have a bag every now and again.

Life isn't about getting somewhere

Well that's debatable 🙂

What carbs for sprinting 😀