[Closed] Lotus Carlton - how does it perform against modern hot saloons

I reckon it will be rubbish.

Suspension, ABS, Traction control, etc. has moved on massively. I will be a complete handful, but probably great fun. Its poorly tamed RWD, what's not to like in a retro way.

But it wont stack up against modern stuff.

[url= http://www.evo.co.uk/bmw/5-series/14115/bmw-m5-vs-lotus-carlton ]http://www.evo.co.uk/bmw/5-series/14115/bmw-m5-vs-lotus-carlton[/url]

http://bfy.tw/8kpo

I suspect a warm-ish hot hatch would give one a good trouncing, maybe not necessarily on 0-60 (a pretty pointless measure anyway), but else where it would - brakes would be better, grip, more power more of the time.

Modern cars have become too good - they're just boring to drive. I'd much prefer to drive the Lotus Carlton - I bet its a hoot to drive.

From Wikipedia,

[i]The Lotus Carlton produced 377 bhp (281 kW; 382 PS) and 419 lb·ft (568 N·m) (of which 350 lb·ft (470 N·m) was available from 2000 rpm.) The car was capable of 0–60 mph in 5.2 seconds and achieve 0–100-0 mph in less than 17 seconds. Tall gearing allowed it to achieve approximately 55 mph (89 km/h) in first gear. The Lotus Carlton/Omega held the title of the fastest four-door saloon car for some years.[/i]

Weighed 1,663kg. For comparison, a modern Mondeo is listed as 1,455 to 1,703kg. The fastest model I think is a 2 litre chucking out 240PS, 0-60 is 7.9s and top speed is 140mph.

A while ago we re-commissioned a Lotus Carlton for a customer who'd stored it for about ten years. His had been modified to about 550BHP. He asked me to put a few miles on it before exporting it to where he's now based. I was expecting it to be fast (it was very, very quick), but wasn't expecting it to drive as nicely as it did. I get to drive lots of expensive, fast, modern cars, most of which leave me cold, but the Carlton was awesome!

"Suspension, ABS, Traction control, etc. has moved on massively"
that might be the problem, its very easy to go very quickly these days. but not always engaging.
Have you noticed how the high end sports saloons have all gone LOUD. to make them a little more exciting?

The Carlton always had nicely balanced handling - fairly clever rear suspension, decent weight distribution, and it's relatively light compared to more modern equivalents. Add the Lotus factor and I don't think a modern warm hatch would have a hope. I remember being astounded at how fast it could brake from 120mph when being taken to school in one. Bloody big tyres for the era too, so lots of mechanical grip. And a proper LSD.

Has ABS moved on much? Stability control has, as has traction control (both were unheard of back then). But car ABS isn't exactly rocket science.

I reckon it will be rubbish.

Suspension, ABS, Traction control, etc. has moved on massively. I will be a complete handful, but probably great fun. Its poorly tamed RWD, what's not to like in a retro way.

But it wont stack up against modern stuff.

If you ever get the chance to experience one then I urge you to grab it.

You'll be pleasantly surprised and quite quite impressed.

I well remember reading a road test where the driver took his mum out for a run in it. At one point they were travelling along a tree-lined road, and he had to pull over after his mum started to get upset, just saying "the trees, the trees".
Asking her what was the problem with the trees, she said "they disappeared!"
While many modern saloons and hot hatches have plenty of poke, and some whizzy do-dads to help keep them under control, the Carlton was a superbly set-up car in the first place, by people who know how to do their job.
I'm pretty sure more than a few drivers of modern cars would find themselves somewhat embarrassed by a well looked-after and setup Carlton.
The same could probably be said of the even older Sunbeam Talbot Lotus, which was a proper competition car.

I drove one years ago when they were fairly new. I was driving quite a lot of quickish cars at the time saphire cosworths, saab turbos, subarus some porsches.
The carlton was one of those cars that when you looked down at the speedo you thought..... no we cant be going that fast. It didnt feel anything like as quck as it was.
The owner told me not to bother with 6th gear much below 90mph.
The thing with it was that the chassis had been engineered by the germans who were using the BMW M5 as the bench mark. The engine was by lotus who knew a bit about power, and all the transmission were from the GM parts bin from the corvette.
It was decent, and probably still reasonable performance by todays standards if a little less refined.
Power though, it had plenty of that.

Ive alwasy lusted after a Talbot sunbeam. Rear drive hot hatch perfect

They were very quick, it was the only car to give my mates Sport Quattro a run for its money but I knew of a 1992 model that failed its 2001 MOT due to excessive rust around the suspension mounts 😕

There was a Jasper Carrot sketch back in the day about how all the Lotus Carltons would end up in the hands of Asian mini cab drivers.

My dad had a white Senator, that thing could shift, and on the motorways everything cleared out of your way sharpish as people assumed it was a police car. Great car, so smooth and comfy, nearly as nice as his Citroen CX.

I didn't get my hands on the Lotus, just the cooking Carlton. I'd been hired by GM to do some display work at Bruntingthorpe and was asked to pick up four size XL execs in one. I dutifully chauffeured them getting teased about my sedate driving until we turned into the site access road which was done in a drift into spin to reverse, red line, spin to forward, red line, spin to reverse, red line... on a tree-lined road not much wider than the Carlton was long.

The Carlton had a handbrake that worked, many modern "performance cars" don't have handbrake.

Cougar - Moderator
From Wikipedia,

The Lotus Carlton produced 377 bhp (281 kW; 382 PS) and 419 lb·ft (568 N·m) (of which 350 lb·ft (470 N·m) was available from 2000 rpm.) The car was capable of 0–60 mph in 5.2 seconds and achieve 0–100-0 mph in less than 17 seconds. Tall gearing allowed it to achieve approximately 55 mph (89 km/h) in first gear. The Lotus Carlton/Omega held the title of the fastest four-door saloon car for some years.

Weighed 1,663kg. For comparison, a modern Mondeo is listed as 1,455 to 1,703kg. The fastest model I think is a 2 litre chucking out 240PS, 0-60 is 7.9s and top speed is 140mph.

Those stats for the Carlton are almost the same as those of my new Jag (blatant humble-brag). The Jag is 500kg heavier.

Performance (Manufacturer's Estimates)
Acceleration 0-60 mph (0-100km/h) seconds: 5.1 (5.3)
Top speed mph (km/h): 155 (250)
Fuel Consumption
Engines
Capacity (cc): 2,995
Maximum Power EEC-PS (kW): 380 (280)
@ rev/min: 6,500
Maximum torque EEC-Nm: 450
@ rev/min.: 4,500
Transmission: 8 Speed
Weight
Kerb Weight (kg): 1,710
Gross vehicle weight (kg): 2,330

The Jaguar is only a 100kgs heavier, the Carlton will only be displaying it's empty weight.

I don't think a "warm hatch" (Fiesta ST, Golf Gti) would see what way it went down anything but the twisty B-roads that played to the the smaller cars strength. Uber hatches like the Cupra 290, Focus RS and Golf R would be closer

Its a classic digital vs. analogue car.
The Carlton is most definitely analogue.

Tall gearing allowed it to achieve approximately 55 mph (89 km/h) in first gear

richmtb

I don't think a "warm hatch" (Fiesta ST, Golf Gti) would see what way it went down anything but the twisty B-roads that played to the the smaller cars strength. Uber hatches like the Cupra 290, Focus RS and Golf R would be closer

Other than a drag race on a dry runway a Focus RS or Golf R would make short work of it. Very similar power to weight ratios but modern low inertia turbos deliver most of their power much lower down in the rev range with little lag. Big old turbos give lots of power but higher up the rev range and not without considerable lag.

I'd take the Carlton on any UK race circuit and expect to get it round quicker than the FWD hatches Focus or Golf.

Edukator

I'd take the Carlton on any UK race circuit and expect to get it round quicker than the FWD hatches Focus or Golf.

A quick Google suggests that VBH lapped Anglesey in the Lotus Carlton at 1:31. She did a 1:32 in the Mk5 147bhp Fiesta ST. Both in the wet. I'd expect the 4wd Focus RS with 345bhp to do better.

Your forgetting one thing, the owner of the Lotus Carlton has much much bigger kahunas...

Edukator - Reformed Troll
I'd take the Carlton on any UK race circuit and expect to get it round quicker than the FWD hatches Focus or Golf.

er, nope.

Even the more cooking hot hatches would murder it in terms of lap time, rock up in an RS/R etc, let alone an current M5 and the poor old carlton wouldn't even see which way they went (before it boiled it's brakes and engine trying to keep them in sight)

 

Thing is, the Lotus Carlton had character, something that is sadly lacking in today's identikit cars. It needed [i]driving[/i] with a lot of respect, 380(ish) bhp, RWD, no ESR,ESP,TC to get you out of trouble when actual skill exceeded perceived skill...

"Suspension, ABS, Traction control, etc. has moved on massively"
that might be the problem, its very easy to go very quickly these days. but not always engaging.
Have you noticed how the high end sports saloons have all gone LOUD. to make them a little more exciting?

And a lot of the noise comes through the hifi I understand.

er, nope.

Even the more cooking hot hatches would murder it in terms of lap time, rock up in an RS/R etc, let alone an current M5 and the poor old carlton wouldn't even see which way they went (before it boiled it's brakes and engine trying to keep them in sight)

Er nope. Top end hatches would be quicker for sure but 'cooking', nope. Lotus Carlton is tested by Motorsport at 3.3 seconds 50 - 70 which is as quick as a Focus RS. Way faster than a GTi. To leave a car standing, the difference in performance has to be huge.

The Carltons weakness might be in brake fade over x number of laps etc but I would not imagine it getting hammered by many saloons. Comparing like for like even.

I'd still rather have a Lotus Carlton. SEAT FR/Cupras, Golf R's etc are the new clit cars.

jimjam - Member

A quick Google suggests that VBH lapped Anglesey in the Lotus Carlton at 1:31. She did a 1:32 in the Mk5 147bhp Fiesta ST. Both in the wet. I'd expect the 4wd Focus RS with 345bhp to do better.

While 'any UK race circuit' was mentioned the Anglesey circuit is a bloody tight, twisty track I think. Its not really where something like the Lotus Carlton would shine compared to something like the Fiesta ST which would be in it's element....enough power to be quick and like a roller skate in the corners...
I suspect if you took the Lotus Carlton to somewhere like Snetterton it would be a different story...

Other than a drag race on a dry rmodern low inertia turbos deliver most of their power much lower down in the rev range with little lag. Big old turbos give lots of power but higher up the rev range and not without considerable lag.

[img] http://www.automobile-catalog.com/wykres_power_m.php [/img]

[img] [/img]

Lotus Carlton is at 68% of peak torque at 1500rpm. Golf R at only 57%. Carlton is twin turbo and I think they're pretty small ones - plus it's a 3.6 litre 24V six. Even without the turbos it would be producing about 250bhp (with NA friendly compression ratio).

but I would not imagine it getting hammered by many saloons.

I was passed by a Lotus Carlton just last week. It was doing about 15mph, in traffic...

When I was younger my neighbour designed the wing mirrors for the lotus Carlton. He got a new one almost before they were available and he constantly had issues with the brakes. No one seemed able to sort the problem out ( whatever it was) so in the end he gave it back.

Lotus Carlton is at 68% of peak torque at 1500rpm. Golf R at only 57%. Carlton is twin turbo and I think they're pretty small ones - plus it's a 3.6 litre 24V six. Even without the turbos it would be producing about 250bhp (with NA friendly compression ratio).

Focus RS produces all of its torque 350lb ft/475nm at 2000rpm.

Two for sale here. http://m.carandclassic.co.uk/list/29/carlton/

Maybe someone should buy one and test it for the benefit of us all.

"Xclusiv Motorz".
yeah...

The power to weight of the Focu/Golf is irrelevent, it's power those FWD, arse-heavy hatches can't put down. Weight transfer just leaves them understeering while a RWD is putting down it's power with the help of weigh transfer and has the other two wheels steering. FWD cars perform well on the track when stripped out and given almost solid rear suspension.

Start a lap of Brands. RWD well get you a couple of car lengths ahead before you turn in blind over the brow and the car goes all floaty as you drift right then find grip, the hatch catches up but the Carlton is powering away again on the exit. The long right-handed hairpin is a proper pain in the arse in a FWD road car. However hard you throw it in, it's understeering chronically by the apex and you feather the throtle to keep the understeer manageable whilst trying to keep exit speed up. The Carlton can be thrown in and drifted through at an angle that depends on how many laps you have to do before the tyres go off. From the late apex on it's foot to the floor.

The left hander is more FWD friendly and the more stable FWD cars would be easier to get through cleanly, but the long, long, right back onto the pit straight is another FWD understeer special - unless you've thrown out all the trim and fitted near solid rear springs. The Carlton could be four-wheel drifted through it with full throttle as it opens onto the straight.

I can't load videos so maybe this has bindun but VB-H has a ?5th Gear? video on YT of her comparing the Carlton to the VXR8.

One on autotrader with 19K on it for £100K!!!

During the 90s I had a 1994 Nissan Sunny GTIR the last UK one sold with a group N kit and it gave 240 hp on a rolling road dyno - not mythical claimed engine numbers.

It was seriously fast and effective being 4wd, I have had lots of fast cars but nothing approached the sunny, it would hit the rev limiter at an indicated 160mph. All the impreza owners couldn't get their heads around another car that would take 10 meters out of them on on each gear change - in respect to the Lotus Carlton I had a run in with one when I had a GPZ900r and it was very impressive

The power to weight of the Focu/Golf is irrelevent, it's power those FWD, arse-heavy hatches can't put down.

Except they're both 4wd with modern high tech setups, and even more grip than they have power!

Lotus Carlton was a damned quick car for the time, the only place it would be quicker than a Golf R would be over a rolling start drag race, or a standing start drag race over a long enough distance (1km or so). On a track it wouldn't stand a chance I'm afraid, as sorted as it was for its time, and even turning up the wick on the turbos wouldn't help a great deal as it would only be usable in a dead straight line on a longer circuit.

No doubt the Carlton would be the more engaging drive and a more exciting ownership prospect, but don't underestimate how much modern technology has advanced the capability of modern cars.

Keep all this 'car-cock' talk going, I have a massive hard on for all you market town ring-road heroes.

MrSmith - Member

Keep all this 'car-cock' talk going, I have a massive hard on for all you market town ring-road heroes.

Define massive.....does it get in the way of your vision, as it droops down from your forehead? Or perhaps the end dips itself into your soy latte when you try to take a sip.....?

Don't worry Mr Smith, I drive around the local ring road at the speed limit and then only when safe to do so. All of these cars are ridiculous on the public roads and I drive a Dacia. Once upon a time I used to compete. Anyhow you're absolutely right, I should be embarrassed by posting in this thread which is devoted to cars that I'd fit with a GPS controlled speed-limiter on the public road if I were dictator. They'd do 30mph max in a 30 limit dropping to 25 if the windscreen wiper rain sensor had detected rain.

I thought we were talking hot hatches (ie FWD) rather than 4X4 homologation specials.

Edukator

I thought we were talking hot hatches (ie FWD) rather than 4X4 homologation specials.

They're 4wd hot hatches. And they're production cars not homologation specials. And anyway, regardless of how many pointless arguments you want to make based on incorrect information and false assumptions it's all a bit moot.

Something like a Lotus Carlton would cost £120,000 in today's money so you're into modified RS6 territory. Would an incredibly rare, expensive and powerful car from yesteryear be quicker than a super saloon from 2016? definitely not. Would it be quicker than the hottest hot hatches? Maybe under the right circumstances, but cars like the Golf R and Focus RS will be much easier to live with day to day and much more of their performance will be usable more of the time.

So for £30k you can now buy a relatively usable, practical day to day car that can hold it's own with rare exotica from yesteryear.

[url= http://jalopnik.com/the-tesla-model-s-p100ds-updated-0-60-mph-time-is-so-fu-1789069181 ]Tesla's Model S P100D Updated 2.4 Seconds To 60 MPH Time Is So Forking Quick[/url]

heheh

Is the P100D a hot saloon?

Edukator that's some beautiful prose up there. I can almost close my eyes and picture Brands Hatch (almost)

How is a FWD hatch arse heavy? The engine is in the front? Anyway out of the top end hot-hatches only the Seat Cupra and the Civic Type R are FWD the rest Golf R, A45 AMG, RS3, Focus RS are AWD.

Incidentally despite the supposed disadvantage of FWD both the Type R and the Cupra can boast sub 8 minute lap times of the Nordschleife (not sure all their AWD rivals have managed that yet)

I think in anything but a fast open circuit the Lotus Carlton would struggle to match their pace

Carlton v Monaro VBH as mentioned above

I remember only a few years ago they were going for £20k.

Okay, maybe not a few, probably ten. But still 🙁

Not sure how it compares performance-wise, but I saw a Focus ST with 13600 on the clock go for £15700 today, I think it was a 64 plate. Tidy looking car, a sort of candy orange colour.
Good thing I don't have that sort of money available, I might have been tempted!

Christ, pwnd by an Aussie taxicab. That sure popped my nostalgia bubble.

Not sure how it compares performance-wise, but I saw a Focus ST with 13600 on the clock go for £15700 today, I think it was a 64 plate. Tidy looking car, a sort of candy orange colour.

From a look on pistonheads, that's about a normal price

The car that cost my mate his life at 19 years old.

Looks a bit chavvy.

stumpy01

Define massive.....does it get in the way of your vision, as it droops down from your forehead? Or perhaps the end dips itself into your soy latte when you try to take a sip.....?

stumpy01 - 😀

Wheeeeeeeeeeeeee

Didn't get to see much Lotus Omega.