[Closed] Lots of building work to do....where do I start?

i'd be interested to see what people think. So far I think it goes like this:

1 - phone and email some builders, arrange for them to come round and take a look
2 - you never see or hear from them again
3 - phone and email some different builders, arrange for them to come round and take a look
4 - they come round and tell you they'll do you a quote
5 - you never see or hear from them again

Architects drawings

Planning permission

Buildings regs application

Builders quotes

change move in date to July 2021

My first thought is that what you are asking for is more than just 'asking a builder'. You need a qualified electrician, a plumber (with an understairs toilet, if none exists right now, may mean digging our new foul piping too) and of course an architect on top of a builder. Many 'builders' want to just come in and build. Your job (as you have no experience) suggests you need a project manager so you want to be looking more towards a medium-sized building contractor that has the project manager in place and can call on all the subbies as and when needed. It sounds a hell of a big project to be undertaking without a clue.

Out of interest - what sort of budget are you expecting on this????

Great.
I'm selling my place, and My missus will have her 30 years police commutation. Even having the cash doesn't help.

I've remembered that two asked if there would be a need to move the drains. As the stack comes right down the back wall, the answers yes.

Thank you futon. Though we were told to try and find a builder that could control the lot. I know a great one where we live now. So the trades all work together well. Sadly I;m in Waddesdon now and our home is down in Portslade.

Johndoh. Our cash in the bank is 230K but I don't want to spend the lot. I was hoping about 80k without the loft extension.

Should have bought a different house!

Single storey extension, sloping roof about 5 x 3M
£25k
full rewire
£6k
installation of central heating system
£6k
Understair toilet.
£5k
Bathroom renovation
£7k
Kitchen fit.
£15k
Finishing including a lot of re plastering
£howlongisapieceofstring?

£80k may do it (of course much is dependant on sizes and quality of fit out) but costs could easily get away from you if you are not careful.

I just completed a similar project in Findon not very far from Portslade.

We did it the hard way by project manage ourselves but we're glad we did and probably saved around 10% but more importantly kept control of the proceedings and made all the decision. Its not that complicated when you put your mind to it.

It took us 6 months but I would suggest to move locally first even if you have to rent. You will need to use tradesman nearer to Lancing than Brighton or even Worthing, quite a delta in cost. December to February is the cheapest time for labour. You can find labourers for £60 and builders for £120 as it's normally quiet.

PM me if you want tips or contacts locally or if you want to have a look around.

Cheers johndoh, not a million miles from what I had hoped.

I will be able to do a bit myself, and we'll both be retired so we can do some work.
I have restored a house before, that was so bad I couldn't get a mortgage in one go on it. But I didn't have any building work done, just wiring, heating, kitchen bathroom install, plastering etc. It took me ages!

Nickfrog, I'll PM you.

Want me to see if my builder would look at/quote for it?

Got any plans/drawings to work from?
He subs out his leccy/wet work to the relevant people.

Just up the road in worthing...

DrP

Cheers johndoh, not a million miles from what I had hoped.

Don't quote me on that though - I am just a homeowner like you that has been through a fair few bits of work over the years and that's just my personal experience.

For my bathroom renovation I went with a plumber that specialised in bathroom installations (but had previously also fitted my new boiler and rads so knew he was OK). He sub-contracted the tiling, sealant, carpentry, painting and electrics (but obviously to people he'd worked with a lot before). Didn't have many issues but the electrician did a shonky job with the switches and the carpenter walked out as he didn't think he was getting paid enough, both of those issues the plumber took full responsibility for and got sorted. Was just glad I didn't have to deal with everything myself but also each of the jobs was done by specialists rather than the plumber doing a half-assed job of the tiling or painting etc.

For your work list I probably wouldn't bundle it into one job with a main contractor, I'd pick one of them first (e.g. extension or bathroom or kitchen) and look for someone that could do all three but only give them one of the jobs to start and if they do a good job get them to do the rest.

If you're willing to pay 5k for a downstairs toilet and 7k for a bathroom refit then I'm willing to travel! 🤣

Doesn't need a project manager, just needs a good builder. Project manager is just an extra unnecessary cost.
You will need planning for the loft but single storey extension could be done under permitted development.

Unless you want a dormer window, a loft conversion doesn't need planning permission just Building Regs.

If you’re willing to pay 5k for a downstairs toilet and 7k for a bathroom refit then I’m willing to travel! 🤣

Same. I'll do your central heating for £6k, including travel from Fife.

You won't be able to get a proper quotation from builders without drawings and load calcs.

If you’re willing to pay 5k for a downstairs toilet and 7k for a bathroom refit then I’m willing to travel!

The downstairs loo was assuming he needed all new plumbing, foul pipes and connecting up to drains - in my experience an expensive job. And £7k for a bathroom? Why not - of course it depends on the size of the room and the quality of fitments etc, but it's about what I paid (IIRC, £5k for our en-suite and £8k for a large family bathroom).

I’ll do your central heating for £6k, including travel from Fife.

Again, easily done - of course it depends on the size of house and what is needed - if it's a new vented system with a boiler you'd be looking at £3,500 for that alone - then all the pipework, radiators and TRVs on top.

johndoh

Member
Single storey extension, sloping roof about 5 x 3M
£25k
full rewire
£6k
installation of central heating system
£6k
Understair toilet.
£5k
Bathroom renovation
£7k
Kitchen fit.
£15k
Finishing including a lot of re plastering
£howlongisapieceofstring?

£80k may do it (of course much is dependant on sizes and quality of fit out) but costs could easily get away from you if you are not careful.

£6k a piece, you're avin a laugh - re-wire is a piece of piss, take a good sparky a week tops, materials will be no more than a few hundred, Sparky rate £230 a day and that's down south. Plumbing - why whole new one,

wrightyson

Member
If you’re willing to pay 5k for a downstairs toilet and 7k for a bathroom refit then I’m willing to travel! 🤣

what he said.

I have very relevant experience of this, my whole house re-wire which is 5 bed with 32 fuses was significantly less (granted i did a lot myself), but even then i was quoted less.

I would get some plans drawn up by a local architect, or architectural technician, perhaps contact your local planning department first to find out what planning consents you need. Once you have your planning permission, obtain building regs, those drawings should have enough info on them to get builders quotes that are actually useful, ie each builder will be quoting on the same thing. You can either manage this process yourself, or have the architect do it for you.

Portslade is round the corner from me.

Good luck!

We are in the middle of some of the above (Bristol). 2 storey 3 bed semi.

Full re-wire £4500

New heating system (gas <span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">Worcester 34cdi) plus first and second fix to new bathroom £5500</span>

if it’s a new vented system with a boiler you’d be looking at £3,500 for that alone – then all the pipework, radiators and TRVs on top

£1000-ish for system boiler & flue
£850-ish for unvented cylinder kit
£100-ish for magnetic filter
£180 2 x zone valve
£150 programmer/thermostat
£1000-ish for 10 x radiators & valves
Round it up to £4k for all the copper and bits
Week to put it in
£2k profit for a week's work? Yes please.

It depends on how much you want to do yourself / how much stress you want.

I would look at going with either medium sized contractor who offers Design and Build or employing a project manager / surveyor. You will need Building Regs at least maybe planning depending on size / works , local planning restrictions etc.You will also need a structural engineer.

If you have an architect / surveyor helping you with plans etc ask them if they could recommend any contractors.

If your going down the subby route get used to rearranging everybody all the time and make sure every knows what they are doing and in what order.

Good builders should be busy, wait for a good one.

Regarding quotes make sure you have the information for the builders to quote on, and make sure you at least let them think its worth there while. Non of this I will buy the materials cheap etc . Why should they work on your job for a pittance if they can be down the road making some money!

£6k a piece, you’re avin a laugh – re-wire is a piece of piss, take a good sparky a week tops, materials will be no more than a few hundred, Sparky rate £230 a day and that’s down south. Plumbing – why whole new one,

Just speaking from my experience - I live in Harrogate so do pay Harrogate Tax, but those estimates all reflect the sort of amounts it has cost me to do similar work and I always shop around.

Wrightyson (or any other tradespeople commenting) - are you in Sheffield? Planning a similar project for 2020...

I'm in belper which is not far away but my work is all really on the commercial side (factories) I'm afraid finbar. However i have countless contacts if that's any help. Know a very good plumbing outfit in dronfield.

one,

Just speaking from my experience – I live in Harrogate so do pay Harrogate Tax, 

*looks to relocate family to Harrogate*

Builders are not going to talk to you about general renovation and extending without detailed plans. You need at least planning permission and elevation plans, if not full structural engineering calcs. The exception to this is if you are getting someone to do something like a loft conversion as a full service, when the builder can often guide you through the process first - All IME..

I dont know how big your house is but I'd say you could have around £150k worth of work listed there, finished depending on spec. Possibly less, possibly more

I dont know how big your house is but I’d say you could have around £150k worth of work listed there

When I did my guesstimate above (at £80k) I was going to say in experience you could easily double it, but I just opted to say costs could run away from him. But yes - it would be easy to spend £150k. Again, in my experience and as an example, I could have got a perfectly acceptable towel radiator for £60. Or a nicer one for £200. Or a dual fuel one at £300 + the additional cost to do the wiring. It's all in the detail.

This conversation illustrates why a builder doesn't want to talk, what you need is an architect 🙂

Dont forget you will need to budget in the cost of flooring, decorating, other fixtures and fittings. My guess is that £80k will barely buy you the shell of the extension and the loft.. I have done this a couple of times already.

^^^ The £80k estimate specifically excluded the loft

I was hoping about 80k without the loft extension.

I’d get it all properly drawn up and see what you can do if there are other things that you might want in future - opening up rooms, moving walls etc. Then work backwards from plans.

If you're looking at dumping say 100k in to this id suggest getting an architect on board. They do annoy the shit out of me at times but good ones will come up with ideas that you haven't thought of. However a good builder will also be able to do that, and some will have an architect of their preferred choice who should be able to assist. As above you want somebody who's come recommended, who doesn't want 50 percent up front etc and someone who without you asking could show you some of their previous work/customers. Push the whole project on to the builder, do not say ok I'll sort the plumber or the electrician etc because when Dave the plumber has a late one on a sunday night and doesn't turn up for a first fix session it will come back to haunt you mainly in costs.
The only downside to that is the "builder" will no doubt be adding a small percentage on to each trades quote but at the end of the day he is taking all the risk.
It's no different to how we work on the commercial side but you need to just add a few noughts on to the price.
Get a programme agreed, accept it does sometimes slip and be realistic. Be wary of extras, anybody who is good will have foreseen near enough everything.
Good luck, we aren't all rogue traders...

I’m in belper which is not far away but my work is all really on the commercial side (factories) I’m afraid finbar. However i have countless contacts if that’s any help. Know a very good plumbing outfit in dronfield.

Ah! I thought you weren't far away. That's a shame but very kind re. contacts, thanks - I'll email you at some point I'm sure. Well, if the solicitors ever pull their fingers out and my sale/purchase goes through...

£80k will be OK without the loft extension and to good finish standards. I have just done more than that for £105k in the same area.
OK budget creep is always a risk but sourcing everything yourself rather than letting the contractors use their usual local sources at inflated prices can be useful and good fun.
Dual fuel quality towel rads can be bought for £100 and sometimes less btw.

^^^ anything can be bought cheaper or more expensively, I was just using anecdotal evidence.

I would say to the OP he needs to bite the bullet and get pros in starting from such a low base of knowledge. Architect and then a good all trades builder. It will cost more that way but will take a lot of stress out

I have done 3 house refurbs by diy + trades for the tricky bits - it takes a long time and you can spend a lot of energy chasing people or making mistakes that have to be redone

As for the budget - its amazing how things can soon add up if / when you pick the "nicer" option. Shopping around tho can save a lot - I got a huge towel rail for under £100. I could have spent 10x that. I did buy a £300 shower tap tho.

Over the last couple of years I have fully refurbed a small flat. new bathroom, fully insulated, moved a couple of walls, new kitchen, partial rewire, £12000 ish plus hours and hours of my time

With the budget you have, starting this project with a chat to the local builders is the wrong way to do it. Use an architect, this is what they are trained to do. The price of the architect's fees is minimal compared to the overall spend, but is easily the most important portion of your overall outlay. A builder's first priority is not to give you the best design. A builder/ 'architect' combination is also not a good idea. They should be independent of each other.

The percentage of buildings that end up looking any good without using an architect is in the region of 3%.

 A builder/ ‘architect’ combination is also not a good idea. They should be independent of each other.

The percentage of buildings that end up looking any good without using an architect is in the region of 3%

Both very sweeping statements that are not to be believed.

For starters the number of architects who will draw you something that is neither achievable on budget or to actually practically build is a common thing. Working along side a builder they get a reality check.

My experience of architects is poor. So from that I would say get personal recommendation if you can. One who kept submitting drawings with things in the wrong place and who gave an incorrect spec for stud walls that caused me big issues with getting building warrant signoff, one who specified light fittings that did not illuminate the room properly and could not be changed without a scaffolding tower

Drawings , structural calcs, building warrents and such on a 5m X 3m single story extension + removing a wall and putting in a load bearing steel and a velux in the bathroom

Cost 5k just for the drawings. . Would have been more if I needed actual planning but it was permitted development.

Value of build will be circa 30k. But that's with family doing the build work and some specific materials rather than the cheapest.

The architects and the warrents etc are all value of project dependant.

But even with a tame builder (dad) the first port of call was an architect.

incorrect spec for stud walls

It's just plasterboard either side of wood, how'd you get that wrong?

and could not be changed without a scaffolding tower

Really don't see how you could blame an architect for that one. You surely knew the ceiling height at a certain point?

wrightyson - external stud walls ie the linings of the roof in the eves. should have had a vapour membrane but he didn't specify one so I didn't put one in. I really should have ripped the whole lot out and start again. The lights one was in my parents house - they didn't pick it up. 2 story lean to extension with stairs - the lights were put in at the highest point and over the bottom of the stairs. I couldn't see any way to change the lamps without a scaffolding tower - a ladder wouldn't do

Having said that - in the OPs example a architect will be needed. Just do your research on them first

Really depends on whether you have a good idea of what you want and you might not have that until you live in the property for a period of time ?

You don't have to use an architect .... A couple of years back we knew what we wanted and pulled out 5 internal walls using a structural engineer to help with a huge RSJ that went in.

At the moment we are halfway through a small (approx 3m x 2m) extension to be used as a utility room ... I drew the plan in 5 mins on a sheet of A4, the builder wrote the spec on it and I email it over to building control. No probs !! The inspector has come out and changed a few things on the spec on the roof and given guidance else where, including the moving of a drain inspection chamber but all in all jobs a goodun.

Point being, there's more than one way to skin a cat.

Good luck

I agree with the comments re the architect, a friend is in a chippy/bricky partnership and apply for tenders from a local architect, they then have a plumber and sparky they use on their jobs and arrange themselves when they need to attend and come back etc.

We've found the best route is to use local house builders who also do general building work. They're used to handling large or multiple jobs at once and have all the equipment and experience to hand. If they need an extra couple of guys for some heavy lifting one afternoon, they've got them. If they unexpectdly need a stump grinder, they've got one etc. They aren't as cheap as using a one/two man band but we've always managed to get a fixed price and we can leave them to it.

Cost 5k just for the drawings

Closer to £500. In my experience of local architects in the area where the OP's project is. Calcs are about £350, on the same basis.

nick - rather depends on if the drawings are just for planning or you want detailed drawings with all the tiny details on them. The first is cheap, the second expensive

It will be interesting to see how much all this eventually costs the OP given the contradiction of replies (half saying 'ohh it won't be that much, I'd do it for half that and a bag of crisps' and the other half saying it could cost much more).

saying ‘ohh it won’t be that much, I’d do it for half that and a bag of crisps’ 

Usually the ones best qualified to price.

One thing that won't be cheap and must be done right by dimeone experienced is the loft conversion, I've heard of many a **** up.
However some of the prices I've seen quoted on here for basic single storey extensions in the past have been ridiculous. Bifold doors being another one where big margins can be made by the builder as they are so in fashion at the minute.

sorry my *just drawings* was a bit miss leading . I mean everything(drawings/calcs/warrents/etc) prior to striking ground.

which your not getting an architect to do for 500 quid - regardless of your location.

and having previous experiance of an architectural technician doing *simple* drawings on the cheap for me - i wont be doing that again what a ****ing mess. His site survey was a joke- couldnt even get the boundary right so when the wall went up to his dimensions it ended up being in breach of planning conditions.

as i think it was wrightyson said - a good architect can make or break your project. a shit one gives you headaches - and has already ridden off to the sunset with the money while your builder sorts the stramash they caused.

Just had drawings done for a knock through for the steel work and cost £250. Basic calculations not architectural drawings. I did get the wrong ones sent to me at first which took a week to sort out but hey ho at least IM in charge of the big hammer and 3 internal walls weren’t taken out by mistake. Mines pretty straight forward and is all being done by and with mates so quotes and phone calls are not an issue and I know what I want. Think hard, check everything and enjoy the challenge.

Well Wrightyson, what do I know, I've only been an architect for 25+ years.

The architect should always be independent of the builder as the two parties have differing interests when it comes to the project. The builder's interests tend not to be giving the Client the best possible design at the cheapest possible rate. A builder is also not a designer. And also, the architect usually administrates the contract between the client and the builder - the architect will act impartially to protect the interests of both parties and advise the client where necessary.

There is however no issue with the architect completing the design and then engaging a builder to talk through the construction process and to take on board the builder's advice/ know-how.

If you have experience of architects who draw things that cannot be built or cannot be built to a budget then I would suggest you have either been unlucky or have experienced people who call themselves 'architects' (as many do) but who are not qualified (eg. 'architectural designers' as they tend to call themselves).

It is up to the Client to check any prospective architect is ARB/RIBA registered and to go through their previous projects in order to have faith in their abilities.

This reminds me of Grand Designs, when in some instances the building owner likes to state how much money they have saved by not employing an architect and doing it all themselves, and then they tell you how wonderful their final building is, when in actual fact it is fugly, and of course Kevin Mcleod knows this but has to smile and nod anyway, allbeit with his trademark raised eyebrow.

Well Wrightyson, what do I know, I’ve only been an architect for 25+ years.

If you’re looking at dumping say 100k in to this id suggest getting an architect on board. They do annoy the shit out of me at times but good ones will come up with ideas that you haven’t thought of. However a good builder will also be able to do that, and some will have an architect of their preferred choice who should be able to assist.

I suggested an architect for this project.

You're not telling me on a design an build basis you don't have regular builders coming to you. I'd say percentage of architects v builders in any town has got to be very small.

It wasn't a dig at your credentials, and I didn't know you were an architect to be fair, I just found it a very broad statement, good builders have come a long way and will have some great practical design input.

1 – phone and email some builders, arrange for them to come round and take a look
2 – you never see or hear from them again
3 – phone and email some different builders, arrange for them to come round and take a look
4 – they come round and tell you they’ll do you a quote
5 – you never see or hear from them again

update:

one of the builders just texted me today to ask if i still wanted a quote. It's 11 weeks since he came round to take a look at the kitchen....

Yeah the whole getting quotes for work thing is just crappily done - are all countries as bad as the UK for this?

The first place I went to (local one with a good rep), the guy turned up to measure up the next day at the agreed time. Only he forgot his tape measure (thankfully I had one). Despite taking all the measurements and asking a lot of appropriate questions (what fixtures & fittings I was looking for etc.) I never heard back from him - I could have chased but I figure if I have to chase when I'm trying to give them my business what hope have I got once they have my money.

Recently decided to get quotes for air con installation, of the 6 companies I contacted (that all mentioned doing domestic installs), only 1 got back to me (same day via email, with a rough cost and saying they'd need to visit to do a proper quote - which I replied to an hour later suggesting dates & times but have heard nothing back over a week later).

I can't imagine the fun and games trying to get quotes for major building work if simple stuff is a nightmare to get them for.

We have similar.
About 10 folk approached for replacement drive quote. Two actually get to site. One texts a price. One not responded. One more quoted without seeing our driveway(!).

Loft conversions with dormers on the rear elevation are permitted development so won't need planning unless you are in a conservation area or pd rights have been removed. It'll need building regs approval though.