[Closed] Looks like Greece are sticking two fingers up to the euro bullies!!

Yes thank **** the tories are fighting against this tidal wave of austerity.

🙂

Yes thank **** the tories are fighting against this tidal wave of austerity.

Not quite sure what the point of your sarcasm is here, as footflaps pointed out it's only going to embolden the right.

FF, Why would he want to do that?

Sadly unless the € elite show mettle and leadership in demonstrating an orderly solution for Greece (part if EU but without €) then the loony sections of the European debate will have a field day.

Hopefully, we will have some sensible proposals (3-tiers?) or simply back to the original notion before we have to out one to paper here.

Now I'm confused. Are you in favour of austerity (Greek style) or not?

Austerity isn't the root cause of the Greek problem and ending it wouldn't solve any structural problems, just allow them to carry on living above their means ie prolong the day of reckoning.

Austerity isn't the root cause of the Greek problem

Yes, it really is, they clearly need other reforms, but the austerity is crippling and very much the root of the problem.

Nope, the problem lies well beyond austerity, although ironic than an anti-austerity party is actually proposing a (less than previously) austere solution in the midst of a crippling econimic downturn, whereas a so-called austerity chancellor is doing nothing of the sort.

Funny old world!

Double post

ninfan - Member

don't worry Sundayjumper - Ernie has a lob on for all things Argentine, particuarly Mother Christina. not long back he was regaling us with tales of the Argentine economic miracle, and how her central planning had led them to become the fastest growing economy in the world...
Posted 9 hours ago

Your capacity to talk shite and to shamelessly spout lies is quite frankly astonishing Z-11.

Do you use Richard Littlejohn as your role model ?

[img] [/img]

But of course you do make it up, time after time, like a veritable lie machine. No surprise there.

ernie_lynch - Member

I am not offering Argentina up as an example of an "economic miracle", there is no such thing as an economic miracle, despite the fondness capitalism's cheerleaders to constantly offer us examples of "economic miracles", which btw always end up in tears.....remember the economic miracles which were Greece, Italy, Japan, Ireland, Iceland, etc ?

Argentina will have problems in the future, it is still fundamentally a capitalist country, and capitalism is always fundamentally flawed - however much you tinker with it.

Posted 3 years ago

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/with-austerity-biting-hard-across-europe#post-3433403

It's like your mam threatening to tan your hide on the count of three if you don't come in on time or something.

Germany/EU/IMF/CEB- "Greece, get in here now or I'll tan your hide for you"

Greece- "No. I'm fed up of having to come in on time, you're just so bossy all the time. You think you own the whole world."

Germany/EU/IMF/CEB- "Don't make me count to three. I'll make you leave the Euro if you make me count to three."

Greece- "Not listening to you any more. You're just a big, fat bully. I remember when you were poorly a while ago and I helped you out."

Germany/EU/IMF/CEB- "One... two... Are you listening to me? Don't make me count to three mind. Two and a half..."

Greece- "Whatever. I hear the Drachma is nice this time of year. Ouzo?"

Germany/EU/IMF/CEB- "I'm warning you. Two and a half... two and three quarters... two and four fifths... two and five sixths..."

etc.

Interesting article in yesterdays Guardian about [url= http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jul/06/greece-euro-unanswerable-austerity-democracy ]the Greeks are exposing just how fundamentally undemcratic the EU presently is[/url].

I notice how Merkel had a meeting with Hollande to make it look like Germany wasn't acting unilaterally when it does whatever its about to do. Nobody else was invited though. Apparently there are 28 countries in the EU. I believe they'll be asked along to stand outside the parliament building in Brussels for their photo op later this week, before they rubber stamp whatever it is Germany has decided.

Democracy? Yeah, right. What a ****ing farce!

Even by Cameron's standards this is vile:

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/jul/03/david-cameron-immigration-greece-uk?CMP=share_btn_tw

I was thinking about this .... In theory, couldn't the entire population of Greece just move to Germany and start claiming benefits?

Democracy? Yeah, right. What a ****ing farce!

OK, but if all 28 countries held a Referendum on whether to stump up more cash for Greece, do you think you'd get a Yes? I'd bet on No. As STW's offical German Apologist, I suspect Merkel's decision is in tune with German sentiment, so not that undemocratic.

I was thinking about this .... In theory, couldn't the entire population of Greece just move to Germany and start claiming benefits?

In theory though, under Europes freedom of movement rules - which the Germans have said all along are absolutely sacrosanct - any Greek (and therefore EU - for now) citizen could move to Frankfurt or Bonn and start signing on?

DrJ - Member

Even by Cameron's standards this is vile:

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/jul/03/david-cameron-immigration-greece-uk?CMP=share_btn_tw

I liked Osborne's line in the budget too- we've got to cut corporation taxes, cut inheritance taxes, cut the BBC, inflict more debt on students, cut the benefits cap... Because otherwise we'll end up like greece.

I suspect Merkel's decision is in tune with German sentiment, so not that undemocratic.

Turkeys in not voting for Christmas shocker.

In theory though, under Europes freedom of movement rules - which the Germans have said all along are absolutely sacrosanct - any Greek (and therefore EU - for now) citizen could move to Frankfurt or Bonn and start signing on?

yep, they could also come to the UK!!!

[img] [/img]

I was thinking about this .... In theory, couldn't the entire population of Greece just move to Germany and start claiming benefits?

Didn't the Greek government stated they'd actively start encouraging people to do so?

if that programme I caught on channel5 last night is anything to go by, it'd be much easier to move to UK to sign on, than Germany.
/foxnewsdailymail

[img] [/img]

Well, exporting the unemployed has worked for Lithuania to the extent that Red Daria the Stalinist Moll now presumes to give advice to others, so maybe it's a solution, of a sort.

So the economy that even the IMF says has totally unsustainable debts it has no chance of ever paying back, has been lent yet another 80 billion, with no write off of existing debt, and the samw conditions as the countless previous loans/bail-outs?

All in return for the same series of reforms, privatisations, and conditions they've been sayin they were going to implement for the last 5 years, but haven't.

The can gets hoofed down the road for another few months, until it all starts all over again. 🙄

Totally agree this is another can kicking agreement. And considering what's been agreed, what the hell was the point of the referendum last week??? Can't see Tsipras being that popular with the masses.

Not exactly. The new deal includes the specific programme for the pillage of the country:

"valuable Greek assets will be transferred to an independent fund that will monetize the assets through privatisations and other means"

so, given that the economy cannot recover (as every economist agrees) the result will be a gradual (or sudden) return to the stone age, with all cultivable land owned by Germany and no industry of any sort remaining. An inspiring achievement.

Can't see Tsipras being that popular with the masses.

I think that the "masses" will see that Tsipras, and their country, were simply totally ****ed by the EU. Let that be a lesson when we vote in our own referendum.

I'm struggling to see what Tsipras and Syriza stand for, if they say for months they won't and then cave in so badly at the end. Bizarre they could have done all this ages ago, probably at less onerous terms.

Rumour is that $80 billion isn't enough and it's more like $100 billion they need, so a what chances on Greece coming back looking for more before Christmas?

Two fingers? No, Greece has got fisted by the EU. It's an awful thing to watch happening. Where's a parliament storming mob when you need one?

No, Greece has got fisted by the EU.

The Greeks have screwed themselves :

[url= http://greece.greekreporter.com/2015/06/16/poll-7-in-10-greeks-want-the-euro-at-any-cost/ ]Poll: 7 in 10 Greeks Want the Euro at Any Cost[/url]

Which is precisely why they are where they are today. Fear of life outside the Eurozone/EU overrides everything else.

We should offer them a swap - they can have this rainy shit hole and 100bazillionclagnuts or whatever and we can all go and live in the sunshine.

They've been well and truly shafted though and it's only going to get worse, thy're about to give away any chance they have of a recovery and any future source of state value creation. They may have made their bed and they do indeed have to lie in it but it was a bit unnecessary for everyone else to do a poo in it.

dragon - Member

Bizarre they could have done all this ages ago, probably at less onerous terms.

Not bizarre, they just thought the troika might do the right thing. More fool them maybe but it shouldn't be such a crazy idea. Instead we have what looks like a disaster for everyone- no solution for greece, no sustainability for debtors, and an openly undemocratic result in the heart of europe.

The Greeks have screwed themselves

+1

Not bizarre, they just thought the troika might do the right thing.

Well on that I disagree, if you want to start negotiating don't start by p*ssing everyone off, continue doing so and then realise at the last you never had any power and eat humble pie by accepting awful terms. Syriza played it very badly from day 1.

They may have made their bed and they do indeed have to lie in it but it was a bit unnecessary for everyone else to do a poo in it.

Stabiliser - could I just congratulate you on your marvelous analogy. Had a bit of a snorting coffee/keyboard interface there 😆

The Greeks have screwed themselves :

Poll: 7 in 10 Greeks Want the Euro at Any Cost

Well, yes, in that sense, but given the problems in creating a new currency (see here http://yanisvaroufakis.eu/2015/07/11/behind-germanys-refusal-to-grant-greece-debt-relief-op-ed-in-the-guardian/ ) their room for manoeuvre was limited.

"To exit, we would have to create a new currency from scratch. In occupied Iraq, the introduction of new paper money took almost a year, 20 or so Boeing 747s, the mobilisation of the US military’s might, three printing firms and hundreds of trucks. In the absence of such support, Grexit would be the equivalent of announcing a large devaluation more than 18 months in advance: a recipe for liquidating all Greek capital stock and transferring it abroad by any means available."

Syriza played it very badly from day 1

Maybe, maybe not, but the end result was decided a long time before Syriza appeared on the scene.

http://yanisvaroufakis.eu/2015/07/13/dr-schaubles-plan-for-europe-do-europeans-approve-article-to-appear-in-die-zeit-on-thursday-16th-july-2015/

we have what looks like a disaster for everyone

The winners are those who support the integrity of the EU and failed Eurozone experiment. Fear has triumphed and the power of wholly undemocratic institutions and financiers remains unchallenged. The risk of political contagion has been neutralized and the brief bolshie strop by the Greeks ultimately proved to be nothing more than a damp squib.

The power of bankers remains undiminished, whatever the economic consequences are ....... that's, relatively speaking, not very important.

Not often (if ever) I agee with Nigel Farage, but he's on Five Live pointing out the glaringly bleeding obvious....

"Greece can never funcion in the economic straight-jacket of the Euro, pegged to the German economy. Its simply never going to work!"

No shit sherlock!

Not often (if ever) I agee with Nigel Farage

Scary, isn't it? I will be voting NO despite him.

Scary, isn't it?

Not in the least. As binners points out he was [i]"pointing out the glaringly bleeding obvious".[/i]

If Farage decides to announce that the sky is blue it really won't worry me, his opinions about anything are completely irrelevant to me.

Blimey. The more detail coming out, the more it looks like Greece has just been bent over while 'The Troika' goes in dry. They are now officially Germany's bitch. They've effectively just signed over pretty much everythign they own.

Looks like a proper Baliffs-walking-out-carrying-the-telly job 😯

As the reality sinks in, how long before a resumtion of this....

[img] [/img]

Considering that the UK isn't actually planning to move to the Euro then what is happening to the Greeks really isn't that significant to the debate.

Although as THM has already pointed out the vote on the EU is currently so vague we don't know what exactly will be voting for. Factor in the USA putting pressure on the UK to stay in the EU and who knows.

There a few winners here other than common sense. Cue, the little boy pointing out a lack of clothes.

Desperate to watch. There is only one truism. €Z countries have not converged sufficiently to allow for a common currency without full fiscal union and other shock absorbers to deal with the lack of FX flexibility.

All blindingly obvious, but the € elite continue to try to hoodwink everyone else.

The referendum was always a ruse (sadly)

The best that can be said (and this is clutching at straws) is that this ultimately will be a back door fiscal transfer. It's bloody obvious that the deal as proposed will fail in time, but there will have been a transfer of finds to Greece that will have been hidden from the german population, But this really is trying to find a sliver of sliver lining on a very dark cloud.

Those who lied to us about the euro project should be holding their heads in shame at this, the inevitable denouement.

around 25% of the Greek economy is "grey" - some estimates put the figure a lot higher. If the Greek's had addressed the systematic tax evasion by their citizens over the last 10 years and put in place reasonable controls on spending they most likely wouldn't have needed these bail outs in the first place.

Sadly not very long Binners.
@ Dragon you could be wrong a year ago I was strongly pro eu and supported joining the euro , now I am against joining the euro and much less sure about the eu, all because of what has happened to ordinary greeks.