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Odd? No, not really - I think it's quite sensible. Nothing like a new face to re-start negotiations with a different tone.
just for a bit of balance lets ask who is not in the Euro zone.
UK
Switzerland
Norway
Sweden
Denmark
Poland
Some pretty stable country's there doing ok.
Varoufakis has resigned
It's perfect timing.
He's put two fingers up to the IMF, and now when the Greek peeps say 'what next?' he doesn't have to think of an answer.
Which was always going to be the hard bit.
Here just now. Having a great time
same here mate, we're in zante, its gorgeous. you?
He's put two fingers up to the IMF, and now when the Greek peeps say 'what next?' he doesn't have to think of an answer.
Which was always going to be the hard bit.
Kind of what he was appointed for wasn't it? He loses some credibility if that's what it is. I'm more surprised that it's stated that it's at the request of Greeces European Partners (if they can be called that still!).
I've said before that this whole thing carries blame on both sides but I still like to see a fair fight and whilst I've disagreed with a lot of his comments, the terrorism one over the weekend for example, he has fought hard. I think without him they will end up with a deal that the public have already said no to.
It was always a case of who it was who would expose the Euro for the ridiculous, unworkable farce it's always been.
It never benefitted anyone but Germany, and to a certain degree their French lap dogs. It just led to everyone else in Europe subsidising their exports.
And hasnt Berlin just shown its true colours over the last couple of weeks. First among equals, to put it mildly. A protectionist bully if you were being more blunt. Who the hell are they to try and engineer 'regime change' when it suits them (and them only)
Am I missing something here? Greeks ask for money and complain when it comes with conditions? And that's bullying?
to purchase infrastructure related items
Some years ago a small rural town in Spain twinned with a similar town in Greece.
The mayor of the Greek town visited the Spanish town. When he saw the palatial mansion belonging to the Spanish mayor, he wondered aloud how on earth he could afford such a house.
The Spaniard replied:‘You see that bridge over there? The EU gave us a grant to construct a two-lane bridge, but by building a single lane bridge with traffic lights at either end, I could build this place.’
The following year the Spaniard visited the Greek town. He was simply amazed at the Greek mayor's house: gold taps, marble floors, diamond doorknobs, it was marvellous.
When he asked how he’d raised the money to build this incredible house, the Greek mayor said:‘You see that bridge over there?’
The Spaniard replied:‘No.’
It will be interesting to see the effect on the general Greek populace after the dust settles.
If debt relief does happen, will they feel any more inclined to pay taxes, accept changes to pensions etc, or will it be business as usual?
I can't see that a shock like this will wake people up to their responsibilities, rather the opposite- it will be every man for himself.
Is there actually a solution to this mess that the Greek people (not the politicians) will accept, and buy into?
same here mate, we're in zante, its gorgeous. you?
Yes I'm gorgeous as well thanks.
In Nea Moudania
Am I missing something here? Greeks ask for money and complain when it comes with conditions?
Yeah you missed out the bit that it was the French and German banks which lent money to Greece and it was them who demanded to be bailed out by European taxpayers.
Ok so.. Did the Greek government have a credible plan to get themselves out of the hole with the bailout money?
Trying to see the bullying here, that's all.
Did the Greek government have a credible plan to get themselves out of the hole with the bailout money?
Obviously another point you've missed is that every one of the half a dozen different Greek austerity programmes implement over the last 5 years has been dictated to the Greeks by the Troika.
And while we're on the subject of missing points I suspect you've probably missed the one about Greece being initially given easy credit so that they could buy useless and extremely expensive military hardware from Germany.
Totally agree binners
has been dictated to the Greeks by the Troika
Or the creditors, as they are also known.
Principles are admirable. It must be great to feel that the rest of Euro are not telling you what to do.
But what happens when the banks run out of cash? You can't print more, because it's someone else's currency. What do you do then. And by that, I mean, what actually happens?
I'm waiting for the "shock" revelation, once the current Greek PM & chums have all gone (and I see the Finance Minister has resigned already), that they are all millions of Euros richer than when they started their current jobs.
cf Cristina Fernandez de Kirchner, Argentinian President, who's done rather better for herself than for her country.
What an embarrassing half-wit comment.
But what happens when the banks run out of cash? You can't print more, because it's someone else's currency. What do you do then. And by that, I mean, what actually happens?
We find out how much the French and Germans are [b]really[/b] prepared to pay to keep the Euro going.
my immediate reaction to that wouldn't be to go after the entire country. It would be to go after those that benefited. But that's not what this is all about though is it. It's debt transfer from the rich to this masses. Your point illustrates it quite succinctly. Cheers.ninfan - Member
to purchase infrastructure related items
Some years ago a small rural town in Spain twinned with a similar town in Greece.
The mayor of the Greek town visited the Spanish town. When he saw the palatial mansion belonging to the Spanish mayor, he wondered aloud how on earth he could afford such a house.The Spaniard replied:‘You see that bridge over there? The EU gave us a grant to construct a two-lane bridge, but by building a single lane bridge with traffic lights at either end, I could build this place.’
The following year the Spaniard visited the Greek town. He was simply amazed at the Greek mayor's house: gold taps, marble floors, diamond doorknobs, it was marvellous.
When he asked how he’d raised the money to build this incredible house, the Greek mayor said:‘You see that bridge over there?’
The Spaniard replied:‘No
[quote="ernie_lynch"]What an embarrassing half-wit comment.
Aimed at me ? Wait and see. I'll be a while before it comes to light.
don't worry Sundayjumper - Ernie has a lob on for all things Argentine, particuarly Mother Christina. not long back he was regaling us with tales of the Argentine economic miracle, and how her central planning had led them to become the fastest growing economy in the world...
Am I missing something here? Greeks ask for money and complain when it comes with conditions? And that's bullying?
You missed more or less everything, for example the bit where the IMF say that the conditions are not realistic cannot be met.
I'm waiting for the "shock" revelation, once the current Greek PM & chums have all gone (and I see the Finance Minister has resigned already), that they are all millions of Euros richer than when they started their current jobs.
And to back that up, do you have any evidence, the smallest scrap of evidence, that they are corrupt? Or did you just pull your accusation out of your ass?
Am I missing something here? Greeks ask for money and complain when it comes with conditions? And that's bullying?
+1
You missed more or less everything, for example the bit where the IMF say that the conditions are not realistic cannot be met.
Neither is just carrying on as normal and expecting someone else to indefinitely pay for your new found standard of living. The Greeks chose to spend above their means for years on end and now they're having to pay for it.
Neither is just carrying on as normal and expecting someone else to indefinitely pay for your new found standard of living.
Nobody is doing that.
The Greeks chose to spend above their means for years on end and now they're having to pay for it.
Yes they did, and yes they are. Does someone disagree with that?
But what happens when the banks run out of cash? You can't print more, because it's someone else's currency. What do you do then. And by that, I mean, what actually happens?
There's a couple of options.
1) Stamp existing currency, literally send soldiers to cash machines and every euro note that comes out get's stamped as a drachma.
2) Print money to pay the civil service and keep the banks solvent. The difficulty is the numbers needed are in the billions. Which requires some planning, which is why I'd not be surprised if the Greeks trip to Moscow a few weeks back wasn't to arrange a loan but to arrange the printing of an entire currency. Why Russia? You need a country with a large enough mint to run an entire currency that's secure enough, do it in a matter of weeks, and do it entirely in secret to avoid a market crash, and the fact Russia would quite like to see the EU on it's knees doesn't do any harm to the theory either.
In either case they can still claim to do it and not leave the euro, it's temporary, etc etc. But in reality either would be a very messy exit from the Euro as once you've done either there will be no more lending.
Welcome to Grimbo - Greece in limbo tag from the boys at Citi. It's an odd state of affairs (sign of desperation) when you see people celebrating in Athens.
talking of Argentina and the wonderful Kirchener school of economics, the book on Greece that I have recommended before (Greece's odious debt) draws interesting parallels between both counties and to the complex interaction of parties involved in the destruction of economies.
When to start buying the € - holding up surprisingly well at the moment, all things considered. Are the bears steal by now??
Varoufakis head is an interesting first sacrifice - who is next?
Neither is just carrying on as normal and expecting someone else to indefinitely pay for your new found standard of living. The Greeks chose to spend above their means for years on end and now they're having to pay for it.
Indeed. But there is no good guys/bad guys narrative here. The Germans and French lent this money mostly tied to the purchase of their exports. They have benefitted enormously from this already. But expected to benefit further They did this despite knowing full well that the Greeks did not meet the criteria for entry into the Euro to justify this. Its just like sub-prime mortgages in America. With the same inevitable result. Irrisponsible lending. Pure and simple.
They turned a blind eye for political, not economic reasons. To further their aim of a federal superstate, with themselves pulling all the strings. This is what happens when you take economic decsions for political reasons.
The Grermans and French are as much to blame for this shambles as the Greeks. They need to acknowledge this, and deal with it. But instead we have complete denial, and the apportioning of blame firmly on one side. Then sanctimonious lecturing and posturing, just to rub it in. Hence being told to get ****ed by the Greek electorate
Indeed. But there is no good guys/bad guys narrative here. The Germans and French lent this money mostly tied to the purchase of their exports. They have benefitted enormously from this already. But expected to benefit further They did this despite knowing full well that the Greeks did not meet the criteria for entry into the Euro to justify this.
I don't buy the whole the Germany / France engineered this to make money story line at all.
When Greece joined the Euro it was one of the poorest countries so qualified for large development money which allowed them to spend well above their means, they got used to this and very much liked it. When the Euro zone expanded, they were no longer the poorest member so the development funds were redirected. Rather than cut back on spending / reform they found they could just keep on borrowing at stupidly low rates (for a country spending way more than it could afford) and pretend that this was the new norm*. Then the credit crunch hit...
Yes those who leant vast sums to a country spending way too much were stupid, but then so was Greece spending well above it means.
*Very much like Gordon Brown's No more boom and bust believing that the City Boys could keep on cooking up money out of thin air for ever....
[quote=footflaps ]I don't buy the whole the Germany / France engineered this to make money story line at all.
Whether or not they expected to make money out of what has happened, that was the end result - and I find it very hard to believe they were totally unaware of the way the economics would work in a single currency zone containing countries with wildly different economies. Far more money than they stand to lose if they just write off the debts in order to enable Greece to function normally.
Yes those who leant vast sums to a country spending way too much were stupid, but then so was Greece spending well above it means.
Nobody is suggesting Greece isn't partly to blame for the mess it's in (in the same way those people who took out sub-prime mortgages are partly to blame). There's certainly some denial that anybody else is to blame though - on this thread and in the wider world.
I'm cribbing this from someone else's FB thread, but the hypocrisy in all of this is laughable.
So, how come we could lend (give, in fact) the following sums to banks:
Citigroup - $2.513 trillion
Morgan Stanley - $2.041 trillion
Merrill Lynch - $1.949 trillion
Bank of America - $1.344 trillion
Barclays PLC - $868 billion
Bear Sterns - $853 billion
Goldman Sachs - $814 billion
Royal Bank of Scotland - $541 billion
JP Morgan Chase - $391 billion
Deutsche Bank - $354 billion
UBS - $287 billion
Credit Suisse - $262 billion
Lehman Brothers - $183 billion
Bank of Scotland - $181 billion
BNP Paribas - $175 billion
Wells Fargo - $159 billion
Dexia - $159 billion
Wachovia - $142 billion
Dresdner Bank - $135 billion
Societe Generale - $124 billion
"All Other Borrowers" - $2.639 trillion
.....with little to no requirement for them to change business practices so far:
http://www2.deloitte.com/uk/en/pages/financial-services/articles/regulatory-top-ten-for-2015.html
....and yet when a country needs money, it seems to be a case of brinksmanship. Thats a country, like the countries we all live in.
Now, I don't doubt that certain things in Greece must change for sustainability reasons, but very few questions were asked of banks when it turned out that they were holding busted flushes, and more importantly knew (or very strongly suspected) that they had toxic debt on the books.
Different rules apply here, it seems.
and I find it very hard to believe they were totally unaware of the way the economics would work in a single currency zone containing countries with wildly different economies.
The Euro project was never about economics it was a Political project driven by a fear of another WWII in Europe. The Economics were always secondary to the fear that without creating some great union we'd have another massive war. As for monetary union without fiscal union, yes it's not the best plan, but then Germany / France have been trying to form an even closer union and will probably continue to do so. The European project is still evolving.
i reposted that on fb as well cody--makes you see it for what it is --the big capitalists will not like the idea of a left wing govt saying sod you "!
So, how come we could lend (give, in fact) the following sums to banks:
Most of the large payouts were from the US Treasury, so nothing to do with Europe.
From what I can work out it's precisely because it affects real people that there's a problem. Merkel didn't have any political issues with spending money on banks, but her electorate appears not to like the idea of "their" money seemingly going into the pockets of people in a different country. I'm sure the way the tale has been spun (corrupt Greece) doesn't help with that.
I'm sure the way the tale has been spun (corrupt Greece) doesn't help with that.
Not only that, the way the Greek government has behaved over the last 6 months is bizarre, they've gone out of their way to insult all their lenders. If Germany held a referendum on whether to just let Greece sink, I'd bet it would be 60% Yes, let Greece go **** itself.
The European project is still evolving.
Evolving?
😆
Nice choice of word. I'd say 'imploding' is presently more applicable.
[url= http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jul/03/greece-referendum-euro-destroying-european-dream-deficit-fetishists ]Very interesting articla about how the single currency is destroying the entire ideal of Europe[/url]
[quote=footflaps ]The Euro project was never about economics it was a Political project driven by a fear of another WWII in Europe.
Originally. Originally it was just a trading zone without any economic integration. Whilst the original threat has gone (though the current situation isn't exactly providing the best platform for sustained peace - is anybody involved paying any attention to history here regarding the required conditions for war?) other political aims have taken over - to a large extent the EU is now an organisation which is mainly about sustaining and growing itself rather than anything which benefits individual people.
Though I'm sure it helped that the strongest and largest countries involved benefited from the economic side effects.
Not only that, the way the Greek government has behaved over the last 6 months is bizarre
Not really bizarre - Tsipras had to keep the Left Platform element in Syriza on board. Plus they have been treated appallingly by the troika and its various hangers on, and vilified in the press in every country of the EU, with little nobodies coming out of the woodwork to give their 2 cents.
to a large extent the EU is now an organisation which is mainly about sustaining and growing [s]itself[/s] Germany
FTFY
Nice choice of word. I'd say 'imploding' is presently more applicable.
No journey is ever straight forward though, you always have setbacks. I'm not defending the Euro by any means, but I really don't see this as a nail in the coffin, more like a puncture. They'll patch it up and carry on and in 5 years everyone will be glad they can holiday in Greece for £7.50 as it will return to being a 2nd world country with a 3rd world country government and some nice sunny islands in the Med.
Not really bizarre - Tsipras had to keep the Left Platform element in Syriza on board.
Unless of course you need the very people you're insulting to give you money to stop you staving or diabetics dropping dead in their thousands as you've run out of insulin.
Unless of course you need the very people you're insulting to give you money to stop you staving or diabetics dropping dead in their thousands as you've run out of insulin.
I guess it never occurred to the Greeks that their lenders would literally sacrifice lives just because they didn't like being called names. Is that really the calibre of people we're dealing with?
binners - Member
Irrisponsible lending.
Aye, well, that depends on how you look at it. Are you the one that's chasing for the loans? Or are you the one that's benefited from the loans to Greece, and have now transferred your money out of the country? Or are you the masses left in Greece to looking at a massive bill.
Guess it depends on where you are on that (very simplistic)chain how irresponsible the lending looks.
That 39% voted to go with what the banks wanted tells a story, imo.
Greece is just an extreme version of what's happening all over Europe i reckon, debt transfer. It's just a battle now for who foots the bill, and I guess we all know ultimately who that will be.
Is that really the calibre of people we're dealing with?
Did you mean the Greek government who is happy to sacrifice lives to prove a point / save their reputation?