[Closed] London riots: Lidl water thief jailed for six months

got caught in the moment

And he nicked a case of water.! What a prize plonker.

good bet he won't be doing that again ha ha ha

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Goin' Daaaahn! 😀

(I wonder if his mate with the camera stole some peas?)

I have a feeling that the vast majority of the people picked up by the police over the last few days will he guys like this. The proper nasty folk will have had the smarts to stay out of reach of the fuzz, the guys in the cells will be all dumb fuds like this guy.

£112.32 to keep someone in prison for a day (info from here: [url= http://www.civitas.org.uk/crime/factsheet-Prisons.pdf ]CLICKITY CLICK[/url])

That's £20,500 for a 6 month sentence based on average.

Fuxsake!?

What a waste of time, money and resources.

That is not justice.

The courts almost always get it wrong, don't they? That judge should be put away himself I reckon. 😉

To all those who'd disagree - never done anything a bit daft or against the law but not got caught? Now, what would you feel like if you got 6 months for your part in a bit of stupidity?

It will be reduced on appeal - its a magistrate wanting to make headlines.

Yep, I'm with you there mac. Plenty of idiots who got caught in the moment but will 'fess up = easy pickings for police who want statistics to back up their zero tolerance approach.

That's £20,500 for a 6 month sentence based on average.

What a waste of time, money and resources.

That's our justice system in a nutshell. Has been for years, ever since all this PC/human rights bollocks kicked off.

His conviction is for burglary rather than theft, a far more serious offence in the eyes of the law.

Not saying it's the right sentence or not, but that's the offence that it's for.

I hope you are right Tandem, mate. Aren't judges sat where they are because they've been selected as a fair person worthy of their job? Where's the fairness in hard sentences for stupidity just to make an impression, eh?

so how many of you complaining about "excessive" sentences & easy suspects were ready to throw the book at them the other night?

be grateful we're not under martial law

harsh to say the least and not justice.

To all those who'd disagree - never done anything a bit daft or against the law but not got caught? Now, what would you feel like if you got 6 months for your part in a bit of stupidity?

The "not get caught" bit is key though isn't it. You have to be persistent or stupid to get caught, and if you're persistent then the time has to be a fair tax for the crime.

Not me John.

Bring back the birch that's what I say.

haha funny...

The likelihood is that it'll be reduced on appeal. In the meantime, I guess it has the immediate advantage of ending out a message to any other potential miscreants though. Probably not a bad idea at the moment.

maccruiskeen - Member

I have a feeling that the vast majority of the people picked up by the police over the last few days will he guys like this. The proper nasty folk will have had the smarts to stay out of reach of the fuzz, the guys in the cells will be all dumb fuds like this guy.

Spot on mate. I have no doubt that the ones who did the smashing of the windows etc, were long gone by the time the old bill arrived. The ones that were caught where the idiots who strolled in later picking up worthless and pointless items. I thought that yesterday when I started hearing details of the individual cases.

I'm not so sure the sentence is excessive. Its not the personal gain of some bottled water that he's being punished for its his part in the greater riot. He's part of all of the riot, he just happened to make very little material gain. Still an idiot and I'm sure he's very surprised.

maccruiskeen - Member
I'm not so sure the sentence is excessive. Its not the personal gain of some bottled water that he's being punished for its his part in the greater riot. He's part of all of the riot, he just happened to make very little material gain.

harsh to say the least

Why?

Maximum sentence for Non Dwelling Burglary is Ten years.

Doesn't matter if it was a bottle of water or a camcorder - the crime was burglary, it is a [b]serious[/b] crime, with huge aggravating factors given the circumstances - He's bloody lucky it was not sent up to the crown court for a longer sentence!

@maccruiskeen: The point with this one is the guy was not persistent, he didn't have a criminal record at all. Does this mean he's stupid then? Is it ok to lock stupid people up?

Have you been in prison? I have - they are full of idiots

He's part of all of the riot

Never been to prison - I'm not the best one to comment I suppose?

If he had done it whilst the shop was open he would have got less.

See - he's an idiot 🙂

Nail 'em up I say.

There are lots of things in life that aren't "fair"

But at the moment, the courts need to scare the $hit out of all the hangers on who were out on the streets egging on the hardcore and getting in the way, so next time they don't think it is some sort of carnival and the police can get on with their jobs.

If it costs £20,000 to get the message across then that is cheap.

maybe the guy can spend the 6 months thinking about how to do something +ve with the rest of his life, in which case it might not be a total waste of his time.

he walked into an shop that was opened by others and took a bottle of water.

Well, he would say that wouldn't he?

Yes, riots in the streets, violence all around, half two in the morning 🙄

he's lucky-if I were in charge he'd have been shot.

Yes, riots in the streets, violence all around, half two in the morning

and a perishing thirst

Well, all that rioting would make you thirsty 😉

its the lack of ambition which I find depressing. Looting from a Lidl is just pathetic.

what is it, 6months which usually means serving half, i.e. 3months.

As for being there, unless he actually lived in the immediate vicinity why was he there? sightseeing?

But yes it is a statement of intent by the authorities, they have to be seen to act in this way.

Prison sentence for this is just insane. What will it achieve? Nothing at all. This is beyond f***ed. It'll get reduced under appeal, hopefully to a non-custodial, in the meantime more resources get wasted on that appeal process. There's no winners.

don simon - Member

How much will the damage cost to repair?

Well, nothing at all- he didn't cause any damage. Or at least, no evidence was presented to suggest he did, he hasn't admitted to causing any damage, and he's not been charged with causing any damage.

Did I hear right that in the case of riots its the police that pick up the bill for repairs to property?

Nice white college student with no criminal record gets 6 months and we're all shocked.

I do wonder if we'd be a bit less dismayed if he had been a young black kid with no criminal record instead.

EDIT: STW? Institutionally racist?

For £112.32 they could just tattoo "Yob" on the foreheads of every looter... Or "t*sser"

oldnpastit - Member
Nice white college student with no criminal record gets 6 months and we're all shocked.

I do wonder if we'd be a bit less dismayed if he had been a young black kid with no criminal record instead.

EDIT: STW? Institutionally racist?

Where does it say he's white?

Perhaps if he had thought about the consequences of his actions, he wouldn't be in the situation he now finds himself in. If you don't have either common sense or a basic grasp of what is right and wrong, don't go looking for sympathy. Once less criminal on the streets is fine by me. 😀

Are you sure it was Lidl water and not Rapha branded stuff?

@Northwind. The authorities aren't going to do cost analysis to see who was responsible for what damage and apportion the sentences. He was part of the rioting that caused millions pounds of damage. If you can't work out the message the authorities is sending out, then clearly they've got it wrong.

But yes it is a statement of intent by the authorities, they have to be seen to act in this way.

A 6 month sentence for that is just bullshit. Nothing more than making a PR example which no doubt, after appeal (hopefully), will result in something more sensible. While at the same time, those ****ers that were really on a hate mission are getting put away for real.

oldnpastit
I do wonder if we'd be a bit less dismayed if he had been a young black kid with no criminal record instead.

Are you a bit special? The article doesn't tell you what colour his skin is. Or are you perhaps a little bit racist, as people who see it where it doesn't exist often are?

Still, you're right, if he does turn out to be black I'll withdraw my objection to a custodial sentence, obviously it would all make sense if he's One Of Them.

I do wonder if we'd be a bit less dismayed if he had been a young black kid with no criminal record instead.

EDIT: STW? Institutionally racist?

Only the ignorant would fail to see through that. Black, white, yellow or whatever - the kid nicked a bottle of £3.50 water.

Well said spacemonkey.

Only the ignorant would fail to see through that. Black, white, yellow or whatever - the kid nicked a bottle of £3.50 water.

... during a riot.

the kid nicked a bottle of £3.50 water.

Actually it was a [i]case[/i] of water worth £3.50 - Lidl don't sell water at £3.50 a bottle. Which in my mind makes the crime even more stupid, why the **** would anyone want to lug a case of Lidl water around the streets of Brixton at 2.40 in the morning ffs ?

A 23 year old isn't a 'kid'

Nothing more than making a PR example

Just looking at some of the stories. One district court judge referred every single case she had to the crown court because she wasn't happy with the sentencing options she had (which I believe is a maximum of 6 months), and refusing bail in every case. That includes at lesat 2 people who turned themselves in to the police- obviously not a flight risk.

Even if you think the punishment fits the crime, it's hardly a good use of resources at a time when things are so stretched.

But then, you see elsewhere

"David Attoh, 18, this week admitted stealing two designer T-shirts in Hackney, east London. A magistrate told him that the two days he had spent in a cell awaiting his hearing was adequate punishment and freed him."

Shereece Ashley was tried in the same court as Nicholas Robinson (our Lidl thief). She admits to having gone out specifically for looting, rather than being an opportunist, and was targeting electrical goods in Tesco, yet she gets 3 months and he gets 6.

Stefan Bohan was given 20 weeks- again more than Ashley- for picking up goods that had already been looted and abandoned off the street.

But then Bernard Moore got the exact same sentence for attacking a Policeman.

So seriously, what the *? Either you think some sentences are disproportionately high or some are too low but there's no way you can think they're fair. I don't know, I can reconcile the rioting to seheels being s***eheels. But this is supposed to be justice. You'd think sentencing's decided by rolling a dice. Obviously these are just snapshots from media coverage, you don't know full details but you know enough about Lidl Guy to know there's not much else that could have reduced his sentence. And how many others?

I don't see the problem. It's quite simple in my eyes. If you don't want to go to jail, then don't go stealing things in the first place.

You'd think sentencing's decided by rolling a dice

Indeed and I'm quite happy with what's been dished out TBH

If the crooks and thugs know what they're going to get, they can make a judgement on whether or not a particular crime is worth based on time likely to be locked up.
If on the other hand, it appears to be a bit random and arbitrary - well then, they will likely get a surprise.

I really don't care if it's fair on rioters and looters one iota

Actually it was a case of water worth £3.50 - Lidl don't sell water at £3.50 a bottle. Which in my mind makes the crime even more stupid, why the **** would anyone want to lug a case of Lidl water around the streets of Brixton at 2.40 in the morning ffs ?

Maybe he was part of the pit crew for the main rioters.

Thirsty work apparently.

Northwind

Do you not think that perhaps we are now getting to a situation where courts are getting sentences right by dishing out tougher sentences for these idiots? A message needs to be sent out that this behaviour is wholly unacceptable. If an individual's moral compass is so skewed that they didn't realize what they were doing was wrong or a bit of fun or did it through a warped sense of entitlement, it makes me glad to see the court system dealing with them in this way.

As the cost of the riots will already be borne by the state (i.e the taxpayer) I'd have thought the less serious offenders could be electronically tagged, curfewed & given community service orders to help in the reparation of the damage. Hard work & public shaming may have more impact than spending time in HMP wherever.

Just throwing people in jail has never worked.

I don't see the problem. It's quite simple in my eyes. If you don't want to go to jail, then don't go stealing things in the first place.

So now just the fact that someone has committed a crime, means that that should be no limit to the punishment which is dished out, according to some on STW ?

Some people obviously have much in common with the medieval feudal dictatorships which rule parts of the middle east and implement brutal sharia law.

Personally I am rather pleased that we no longer hang horse thieves or condemn people to deportation to the colonies for stealing a loaf of bread.

Clearly there are limits when it comes to sentencing, and the argument here is what is acceptable, not the dismissive "if you don't want to do the time then don't do the crime" usual bollox.

So seriously, what the ****? Either you think some sentences are disproportionately high or some are too low but there's no way you can think they're fair.

Or, maybe... the magistrates who are actually in court, actually dealing with the people first hand, actually seeing the evidence being put forward, are better at sentencing than a bunch of pundits on a MTB forum?

Are you suggesting that articles such as the OP's original link to the Daily Telegraph, represents bad and misleading reporting which doesn't report the true severity of the crime rightplacerighttime ?

You could be right. I doubt it though.

Shereece Ashley was tried in the same court as Nicholas Robinson (our Lidl thief). She admits to having gone out specifically for looting, rather than being an opportunist, and was targeting electrical goods in Tesco, yet she gets 3 months and he gets 6.

Clearly there are limits when it comes to sentencing, and the argument here is what is acceptable

True. In many countries looters would be shot on sight.
Here this bloke faced up to ten years in jail.

Six months seems about right to me (bearing in mind he'll only do 3).

Lots of people saying "it was only water".
Anyone know if/how the value of what he nicked is considered in sentencing?

TandemJeremy - Member
It will be reduced on appeal - its a magistrate wanting to make headlines.

But magistrates don't sentence (they don't have the powers, they pass judgement but look to others to sentence) - the district judge has in this case, and that sentence will be on the advice of the probation service in their pre-sentence report.

This is just a demonstration of muscle to prevent future riots.

Yeah, like that worked in the past. 🙄

How did you get from

I don't see the problem. It's quite simple in my eyes. If you don't want to go to jail, then don't go stealing things in the first place.

To

So now just the fact that someone has committed a crime, means that that should be no limit to the punishment which is dished out, according to some on STW ?

Then you did a leap to

Some people obviously have much in common with the medieval feudal dictatorships which rule parts of the middle east and implement brutal sharia law.

Little bit of "motherhood and apple pie" here

Personally I am rather pleased that we no longer hang horse thieves or condemn people to deportation to the colonies for stealing a loaf of bread.

Before coming back to reality

Clearly there are limits when it comes to sentencing, and the argument here is what is acceptable,

That seems to be the nub of the debate.

not the dismissive "if you don't want to do the time then don't do the crime" usual bollox.

Is it really bollox?

Yeah, like that worked in the past.

surfer - Member

How did you get from

To

Then you did a leap to

Little bit of "motherhood and apple pie" here

Before coming back to reality

That seems to be the nub of the debate.

Is it really bollox?

Well if you read my post as one continuous comment, you'll see how I managed to do that.

Although I suspect that what you're really trying to say, is that you don't entirely agree with me.

Does the value of the item stolen actually matter if you've broken in to steal it? serious question BTW.

Say it had been a jewlers instead, and he grabbed a cheap bit of pewter jewelery is that less of a crime, than if on the other hand he had stolen a diamod ring.

pjt201

Are you sure? Magistrates have the power to impose sentences of up to six months is my understanding.

Are you suggesting that articles such as the OP's original link to the Daily Telegraph, represents bad and misleading reporting which doesn't report the true severity of the crime rightplacerighttime ?

Have you even read it?

Here are some extracts.

He (the magistrate) said Robinson’s previous good character and early plea of guilty to a non-dwelling burglary, as well as the low value of goods stolen, the fact he was in education, and his remorse, were in his favour.

But the judge said: “The aggravating features are the background of serious public disorder and your part in that.”

“The prosecution submit that this defendant has contributed through his actions and criminal conduct to the atmosphere of both chaos and sheer lawlessness.”

In other words, the court has taken many factors into account (not just what was stolen) and come to a judgement.

You might think it sounds a bit harsh, but given that you weren't in court, maybe you should just step back a bit from the absolute certainty that you seem to be expressing that some hideous travesty of justice has taken place?

Personally, I think that if he has received a slightly OTT sentence, then there might well be a bit of overall good in that "opportunist" participants at future incidents, might decide to take the "opportunity" to stay out of jail rather than the "opportunity" to jump in and become part of the problem.

I've got no sympathy whatsoever for the defendant, but 6 (3) months in prison isn't going to kill him is it? If he's the sort of upstanding citizen that you'd like to think he is, then maybe it will give him a bit of a kick up the ar$e to do something +ve with his life.

It is the act that is the crime of burglary not what is stolen. It is a simple concept. Whether it was a bottle of water a plasma screen tv or a bunch of flowers its still burglary and it is a very serious offence. Everyone knows you shouldn't do it, but he did so he has gone to prison.

its a magistrate wanting to make headlines

In a similar way, they do appear to be massaging the news to show the demographics of the looters so as to 'prove' that all the trouble hasn't been caused by out of work 18 yr old black lads. (Ie: graphic designers; teaching assistants; students; daughter of a millionaire etc).

Have you even read it?

Yes I read the article. And I guess most people who are voicing an opinion have too. So what's your problem ? Why are you coming out with stuff like :

[i]"Or, maybe... the magistrates who are actually in court, actually dealing with the people first hand, actually seeing the evidence being put forward, are better at sentencing than a bunch of pundits on a MTB forum? "[/i]

Are you suggesting that the information in the article is poor and/or misleading ? If so, why are you extensively quoting the article ? I'll check later to see your answer.

Or, maybe... the magistrates who are actually in court, actually dealing with the people first hand, actually seeing the evidence being put forward, are better at sentencing than a bunch of pundits on a MTB forum?

I think this is all that needs to be said.

There were pages and pages of ranting on about how terrible the events were and how the authorities should have done this and that. Now as usual as soon as they do something you're all complaining about that too.

It was only a case of water doesn't wash. He entered someone else's property and stole from them. That is a crime, he knew that before doing it. At 23 he is an adult and punished as one.

If it had been your front window he'd stepped through, your possessions/livelihood he'd taken. YOU WOULD SEE IT DIFFERENTLY.

If he didn't want to be punished he should have stayed at home.

(Ie: graphic designers; teaching assistants; students; daughter (EDIT: or SON 🙂 ) of a millionaire etc).

Yes, because you can't be any of those if you're a young black male 🙄

The last one may be difficult iDave. 😀

But magistrates don't sentence (they don't have the powers, they pass judgement but look to others to sentence) - the district judge has in this case, and that sentence will be on the advice of the probation service in their pre-sentence report.

If it had been your front window he'd stepped through, your possessions/livelihood he'd taken. YOU WOULD SEE IT DIFFERENTLY.

Well it wasn't my shop/livelihood that was targeted, but it was my town that was trashed and reduced to something resembling a war zone. And it was the shops that I [i]actually[/i] use which were looted/destroyed, including my LBSs Geoffrey Butler's and Bike Plus - both a few minutes walk from me . When I saw the damage to the town centre I was devastated, it was far worse than I had expected, and I was genuinely seriously upset, in fact I was surprised just how upset I was. I won't however support a "anything goes" attitude when dealing with those responsible for it. I expect common-sense to prevail, not stupid knee-jerk reactions.

I won't however support a "anything goes" attitude when dealing with those responsible for it. I expect common-sense to prevail, not stupid knee-jerk reactions.

But why do you regard a six month sentence as "anything goes"?

Seems about right to me.

If they were stringing them up then I'd be waving a liberal flag right next to you ernie, but a six month sentence (likely 13 weeks actual time) doesn't seem overly harsh to me for an adult that has gone out specifically to commit burglary.