[Closed] Lockerbie bomber release.

It's plausible.

What would you do if your family had perished on that plane because of the bomber got released early?

I'd be miffed.

(Assuming he was the culprit)

Personally i think he should have stayed in the clink, but i do wonder if the Scots Govt are asserting their legal independence...

What would you do if your family had perished on that plane because of the bomber got released early?

I'd be miffed.

1) it's unlikely that he did it
2) I understand he has terminal cancer
3) He'll be rather closely watched on any mass transit

Don't forget it wasn't just Americans that were killed

Scotland defiant against america - what a great day ! America,s problem is they've got no concept of compassion. If he was guilty , then justice has been done ; he's done a life sentence and now he's gone home to die.

It seems like he is beening allowed home to die with his family.
The warm fluffy side of me says thats a good thing, shows compassion.
The colder bit says good, the tax payer won't have to pay a huge medical bill as he slowoly dies of cancer.
And **** the yanks.

Do we know if the aircraft taking him home has landed safely yet?

(I thought that Kenny MacAskill's speech was very interesting and that the right decision was reached on compassionate grounds. The legalalities are a minefiled, to say the least...)

i see no problem with it...mean we dont even have much proof to say that he did it...he has pleaded inocent for the entire time, and if he is, its sad he cant clear his name anymore. the americans seem to have a different way of looking at everything.

If he'd stayed in prison and a public enquiry happened in which he was said to be innocent then he would have been released and got a payout. If he's not guilty he's had a raw deal, if he is guilty he has 3 months.

This has more to do with oil contracts than natural justice.

It could also be that a release now on compassionate grounds will preclude an embarrassing appeal in a couple of months.

Did MacAskill take this decision on his own? I think there's more to this and a few political jaickets will be on a shoogly nail.

When the Americans shot down an Iranian airliner, they paid no compensation to the victims' families, nor apologised. Libya did both - although that was probably to obviate more trade sanctions. It was more likely not a Libyan action anyway.

I think sending him home to die in peace with his family shows a much stronger message and example of compassion to bad people arround the world than sending home a box with hinm in it in 2 months.

C

I don't think he would have been released if those making the decision had believed he was guilty in the first place.

Well said ChrisE, the guy was only a scape-goat for Libya. It shows the UK is a bit more civilised than the rest of the world too (not that thats a reason to release the guy)

I like the way he's wearing a Nike cap on his way to the plane.

In a radio interview, Mr Obama said: "that his administration had told the Libyan government that Megrahi should not receive a hero's welcome and should be placed under house arrest"

but . . . . Earlier on Thursday, police took Megrahi from Scotland's Greenock Prison to Glasgow Airport to [b]board a private jet owned by the Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi[/b].

[img] [/img]

The question is what is the point of compassionate release. You can look at it a few ways, some Qs...
1) Do people who are (presumably) guilty (we can't pass judgement on that really, we dont have the evidence) deserve compassion?
2) What does it achieve.
3) Does it cause other problems.
4) What is the point of compassion.

So my answers from my short thinking are:
1) Probably not, I can see no reason why someone who has been found guilty should be allowed free just because they're ill. If someone slapped you in the face with a mallet, then said "please dont hurt me, I'm ill" would you be compassionate? I doubt it, compassion is a luxury of those who have not suffered, and instructed by the religions of those who have suffered in order to maintain order.
2) It achieves practically nothing. Do you really think the US care what scotland do lol? Do you really think that Mr Bomber is now going to feel all warm and fuzzy because we've let him free when he's dying?
3) Well you now have a convicted bomber on the loose with nothing to lose and probably all the right contacts to get false ID for travelling, but I presume he'd be under close watch, not just free to roam.
4) I see no point in it. Either they did a bad thing and should see their punishment through, or they did not. Back to the mallet - you whap me in the face with a mallet and ask for help with your terminal illness and I'll pick myself up and beat you senseless regardless, your illness does not constitute a pardon on my part. Sure as a member of the public I can sit back and think "ooh how nice, he can see his family, arent the scots a lovely lot".

The only good thing to come out of it, that I see, are that his family will get to see him off, so i'm ok with it on those grounds.

Well here in Tripoli the avarage Libyan does not give a toss about this guy, they just want to get on with things knowing that when they were classed as the bad boy it meant they suffered as a result. Nothing to do with oil it has never been mentioned here and i sit in on some top draw meetings with National Oil Company.

Ramadan kicks off Friday so the gesture to get him back here for that time is well appreciated as the period is a time for the family. Not really big news, the Tripoli post had a picture of his mum on the front and a little story but really no fuss. In fact looking into Green Square the speech given by one of Gaddaffis sons tonight to the Youth movement and the fireworks has drawn a bigger crowd, also there is a rumour some US Rap star is to turn up this weekend to kick of the 40th year celebrations and thats what everyone is talking about.

Gaddafi is due in New York later this year to address the UN as he is head of the African Union, no doubt he will rub the Yanks nose in it possibly turning up with a picture of the guy pinned to himself as he did when he visited Italy last month wearing a photo of a freedom fighter the Italians slotted, all fun and games to the Leader but the guy has not long left to live so like they have done with Ronnie Biggs let him die at home.

You know what when you consider that the US (or rather the people there complaining) are supposedly christian yet they are braying for blood I just don't get it.

Whether the guy is guilty or not he is on his last legs.

If we cant let him go home to die then we are evil vicious small minded hypocritical folks and in my book are almost as bad as he allegedly is because we think we are oh so much better than him.

Kenny's comment about a higher judge than us actually was correctly measured IMHO.

He's had plenty of time to relax before this flight.

What a bad choice of logo's on the steps eh?

Spectral Alphabet thats what one of the local girls said here in the office this morning, let Allah decide he is the one that knows then promptly asked if she could go home early as she wanted to go shopping.

I think its a bit rich the US screaming for justice to be served while
guantanamo bay is still open for business.

He was sentenced to life in prison. Not death by excruciating illness. As above, it shows the rest of the world that Scotland is more forward thinking than the yanks, and it shows that if a country wants to they can actually stand up to Team America: World Police.

that'll teach the yanks to slag off the nhs!

i'm pleasantly surprised by STW. thought it'd all be a bit [url= http://www.****/news/article-1208001/Heros-welcome-Lockerbie-bomber-Megrahi-slaughtered-270.html ]Daily Mail[/url].

[i]Do you really think that Mr Bomber is now going to feel all warm and fuzzy because we've let him free when he's dying?[/i]
ever sat with someone who is dying? i have. things really affect people in their last days/hours. if he did it (and i seriously doubt it) then it'll haunt him to the very end. if he didn't, ditto.

Scotland leads the way yet again in its treatment of terrorists.

Compassion where it is merited, and kick the flaming sh1t of them otherwise. 🙂

Moses - Member

When the Americans shot down an Iranian airliner, they paid no compensation to the victims' families, nor apologised. Libya did both - although that was probably to obviate more trade sanctions. It was more likely not a Libyan action anyway.

Very true - altho the Iranians got their revenge - by blowing up a plane over Lockerbie

Not true:

"In 1996, the United States and Iran reached "an agreement in full and final settlement of all disputes, differences, claims, counterclaims" relating to the incident at the International Court of Justice.[6] As part of the settlement, the United States agreed to pay US$61.8 million in compensation for the Iranians killed. The United States did not admit responsibility or apologize to the Iranian government.[7]"

[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655 ]Wikipedia[/url]

Surely 'release on compassionate grounds' as above or with Mr Biggs is what separates us from the terrorists and right-wing America.

A good position to be in.

Paul

PS It would have been big 'internal' political mistake for the Obama administration to take any other stance.

TJ- That's just not true. Or did the Iranians get the Syrians to do it?

ever sat with someone who is dying? i have. things really affect people in their last days/hours. if he did it (and i seriously doubt it) then it'll haunt him to the very end. if he didn't, ditto.

Me too, but what has that got to do with whether he should remain in prison? While some people seem to be thinking that it makes us the worse party if we dont let him go home to die, I personally don't think that's the case. Again, assuming guilt, he's killed hundreds. They never had the chance to see their loved ones. Why should he be spared that fate? Why does us sparing him that fate make us better people? Is it better to spare one person the fate of dying in prison, or return hundreds, possibly thousands, of family members to a position of anger and upset? At the end of the day it's personal choice where the line is drawn, but I dont see how the people of the UK can be the ones cast in a bad light when they are the ones against whome the original injustice was performed. You may say that if he is released it's really nice, but you can't say that if he ISNT released its our fault and we're all mean and nasty. He committed a crime, he was sentenced to life in prison, that should mean life. There are hundreds if not thousands of prisoners out there who probably are pre-cancerous by the laws of statistical probability, do we release them all now because they've now been "handed a sentence by a higher power" ?

So the scottish parliment is to be recalled to 'discuss the decision' on Monday. A bit late for discussing it after the fact.

Macaskill made the decision and I think he'll not only lose his job over this, but take a few senior politicians down with him (even impacting the whole Scottish parliment set up). Personally I think this is a major international blunder by Scotland.

Not true:

That article also says that the Americans never apologized or admitted responsibility, and that the crew who did it received medals afterwards.

Seems all very reasonable. The Americans encouraged the British Government to release Irish convicted murderers who were responsible for the deaths of thousands as part of the Peace Process seems only right the Scots can return the favour.

>Surely 'release on compassionate grounds' as above or with Mr Biggs is what separates us from the terrorists and right-wing America.<

Quite and that's the basis upon which he was duty bound to evaluate the case / take the decision - as it is in every case where the prisoner has less than 3 months to live.

The Americans just so don't get this of course because their whole judicial / penal system is founded upon retribution and that is completely different from our justice system here in the UK / Scotland.

A few more observations:

Macaskill has absolutely nothing to gain by this - on the contrary. For all his faults (visiting the jail for example) he took a humanitarian decision.

The lone guy waving the saltire in Tripoli - how many of them would have been burning them had he died a martyr in jail?

Perhaps the decision should have been left to the victim's families?

not much different to [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_Rainbow_Warrior#Scandal ]this [/url] in intent, if not in scale. And they were accorded a hero's welcome.

There are hundreds if not thousands of prisoners out there who probably are pre-cancerous

True. But he is a bit beyond "pre-cancerous". He has highly aggressive bum cancer that is not responding to treatment and is only expected to live for a couple of months.

[url= http://news.scotsman.com/politics/Lockerbie--Kenny-MacAskill39s-statement.5574230.jp ]All prisoners have the same right to compassionate release, as Kenny MacAskill explained in his statement[/url]:

"Section three of the Prisoners and Criminal Proceedings (Scotland) Act 1993 gives the Scottish Ministers the power to release prisoners on licence on compassionate grounds.

"The Act requires that ministers are satisfied that there are compassionate grounds justifying the release of a person serving a sentence of imprisonment.

"Although the Act does not specify what the grounds for compassionate release are, guidance from the Scottish Prison Service, who assess applications, suggests that it may be considered where a prisoner is suffering from a terminal illness and death is likely to occur soon.

"There are no fixed time limits but life expectancy of less than three months may be considered an appropriate period.

"The guidance makes it clear that all prisoners, irrespective of sentence length, are eligible to be considered for compassionate release. That guidance dates from 2005.

Now the murdering bxstxrd is a national hero now he is back in his home country! FFS! How insensitive is that? Assuming he is innocent as he proclaims, wouldn't he return home quietly and not court public adulation? Disgusting!

Assuming he's guilty and justice was served, why should he be released?

Several thousand people had their lives permanently ripped apart thanks to him! Do you know what it is like to suddenly loose a loved one? Add the fact that your loved one's demise was due to some futile medieval dispute and forgiveness becomes unthinkable! The victims died in vein. True compassion would have been the death sentence for the bomber! Compassion for his victims, the one's still living who will hurt for the rest of their lives. Compassion for them!

We released him because we believe in justice and a civilised way of life. I see why people accept this thinking, however why should those who ignore the rights of others be pardoned, even if they are dieing??

I understand the thinking of these ideals of justice and compassion, but the way the criminals see it is that we are soft as shxte! They know they will be let off the hook - there is no deterrent. The thinking is therefore flawed IMHO and the reality is that many criminals just don't have the mental capacity to understand it. It's laws which are in effect disrespectful to the victims and those who do toe the line. It's laws which tolerate barbarity. This is patently wrong. Naive liberal idealism rearing it's fluffy head again! Damn the idealistic liberal thinkers! They are like a thought police in continually trying to influence how we think, but they are out of touch with normal people and damned arrogant towards us all!

This is an international diplomatic disaster for Scotland! I'm pleased it wasn't the UK government's responsibility so the UK doesn't get the blame. Perhaps other countries like America will begin to understand how divisive this stupid devolution thing is. If it had been a UK descision, i'm sure many Scotish people would be banging on about the colonization of their country by the British etc. You know, lots of anti-British, anti-English sentiment. Well it wouldn't have made any difference if it had been the UK parliament because the UK governemnt cabinet are mostly Scotish anyway. Well all the parties have a disproportional Scotish representation actually.

For the Lockerbie bomber, his insensitive behaviour when getting off the plane in Tripoli says it all to me; guilty! Three months is too long! His suffering will never be enough.

My thoughts are with the victims and their families!

Spongebob - noone has been pardoned, he's been let out on compassionate leave to go home to die. If you show compassion to someone who themselves did not show it, it is not weakness, it is strength.

I may be wrong about the exact nature of the legal situation but it seems like, being in Scotland the UK Home Office can't interfere with normal legal processes to suit political ends - if so then that's good.

On the other hand, it does all seem like a good way to get a little embarrasment now rather than what might come out in his appeal. The guy didn't do the bombing alone, it was most likely the work of Libyan security forces, and we're trying to cosy up to Libya these days.

[i]Now the murdering bxstxrd is a national hero now he is back in his home country! FFS! How insensitive is that? Assuming he is innocent as he proclaims, wouldn't he return home quietly and not court public adulation?[/i]

He's not in a position to control how others react to his release.

[i]My thoughts are with the victims and their [b]families[/b]![/i]

Jim Swire, whose daughter was on the flight, seems convinced al-Megrahi is innocent ...
[url= http://www.firmmagazine.com/features/592/The_Fallout_From_Lockerbie_-_by_Jim_Swire.html ]http://www.firmmagazine.com/features/592/The_Fallout_From_Lockerbie_-_by_Jim_Swire.html[/url]

If you show compassion to someone who themselves did not show it, it is not weakness, it is strength.

Thats your opinion. Shows stupidity and insensitivity to me.

Well it wouldn't have made any difference if it had been the UK parliament because the UK governemnt cabinet are mostly Scotish anyway.

Well I've only managed to find 4 out of the 24 Cabinet ministers that are Scottish.

Well all the parties have a disproportional Scotish representation actually.

I doubt that the Conservative party has a disproportionatly large scottish representtion, quite the opposite I would have thought. It's also worthy of note that there has never once been a situation where the government of the UK did [i]not[/i] have an overall majority in England.

Still one shouldn't let things like easily checked facts get in the way of a good rant.

If you show compassion to someone who themselves did not show it, it is not weakness, it is strength.

yeah, that Jesus bloke was a right wimp 🙁

VinneyH, that still makes me fume. And all the more so because the rest of the world seems to be totally oblivious to it.

He dismissed claims that the Government had sought to boost Britain's diplomatic and commercial ties with Libya while retaining the moral high ground by not endorsing al-Megrahi's release. 'That's a slur both on myself and on the Government,'

Slur maybe but spot on I'd guess. My cynical head says that's exactly what happened, someone in the government put pressure on scotland and gave Obama a call to check he was unofficially OK with it too. Admittedly SNP may well have come to same decision on it's own anyway.

The right decision I feel but I think there should be political repercussions for any official "celebrations" and gaddafis son being there and hugging the man on camera looks pretty damn official to me.

Oh yeah well done Scotland 🙄

Oh yeah well done Scotland 🙄

Oh yeah well done Scotland 🙄

Oh yeah well done Scotland 🙄

The four posts were not intentional, this website is ****ed.

Roll on Scottish independance. Who actually believed he WOULDN'T be welcomed back as a hero?

Maybe the Yanks will loose the warm fluffy feeling they have towards the "oppressed" Scots in the same way they finally woke up to the IRA after 9/11.

We released him because we believe in justice and a civilised way of life. I see why people accept this thinking, however why should those who ignore the rights of others be pardoned, even if they are dieing??

Because you have to rise above, otherwise justice becomes simply about spiteful revenge and is little more than a sanctioned lynch mob.

If we truly allowed ourselves to sink to the levels of those who commit crimes against us then we'd have put his family on-board a Libyan airliner and blown it up. And right now we'd have British soldiers beheading captured al-qaeda members live on Al Jazeera.

Personally I'm quite proud of what we did here.
We have acted with conscience and compassion.

Because you have to rise above, otherwise justice becomes simply about spiteful revenge and is little more than a sanctioned lynch mob.

Justice is little more than that anyway? All the prison system is there for is to remove the threat to the public and provide a punishment for your crime. The justice system is there to determine whether you're guilty or not, fairly, and if you are then you go to prison to serve your punishment. At no point should the punishment be lessened just because someone is ill. Keeping someone inside, fed and watered, until they die or finish their sentence [b]IS[/b] rising above their actions and being fair on all parties, keeping the public safe. Releasing them early is an insult. A mistake under the guise of "the right thing to do". The right thing to do was chosen in the first place. The bomber took their chance and paid for it, if he dies in prison that's part of his choice in the first place.

Spongebob - your sense of humanity is FAIL

Will it be a case of ...[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernest_Saunders ]Quick recovery ?[/url]

❓

Words I'd like to be associated with:
humanity, compassion, justice, mercy

Words I'd rather not be associated with:
anger, spite, vengeful, vindictive, cruel

You may see the latter set as [i]stronger[/i], I do not.

There is a pretty clear difference to me between punishment and revenge. If a man is given a life sentence and that life turns out to be short then I do not think he has escaped justice.

Well i know of a poor care home in N w**,run as a money grabbing buisness,with a management who didnt care, that had numerous complaints agianst it,where somebody stole residents money, where the management said they hadnt,where the 3 local homes they owned, over a period of a few years,a resident died after drinking caustic soda, another fell from his wheelchair, and lay undetected for an hour, and died, and another fell from an upstairs window and died.Another chap suffered a broken leg and was REFUSED medical treatment for 14 hours,even though he was registered blind and suffered from terminal Prostate Cancer.

This is where the Libyan Bomber should have gone,there where plenty of empty beds,where all they cared about was the paymnets each week of up to 500 pounds plus per resident.
Where food was served cold, and of poor quality,the list goes on, this is where he should have spent his last days.

My dad did,and lived to tell the tale, until he was moved to a better home with better management.

Save compassion, respect and mercy for people who understand it. Oh! And along with self respect following that man's triumphalist return.

Compassion and respect for our own people first thanks very much.

>This is an international diplomatic disaster for Scotland<

Actually - it's barely news in the USA...

A less hysterical analysis of the fallout from this here:

http://www.lockerbiecase.blogspot.com/

project: That sounds truly awful. Your father was subject to criminal neglect. I don't think that means we should treat our prisoners in the same way.

tankslapper: and how can you hope to teach [i]"compassion, respect and mercy"[/i] to those that don't [i]"understand it"[/i] if you are unwilling to show them it?

I think Scotland comes out well out of this release. compassion and new testament "turn the other cheek" Rather than vengeance and " and eye for an eye" in an old testamentarian fashion.

So.

When Peter sutcliffe is dying of cancer he will be released on "compassionate" grounds.

What a crock this is. The guy was found guilty of a crime. Make him serve the sentence. Same goes for biggs. Only came back because he needed the health service. Should have left him out in Brazil.

Apologies for my non liberal views and poor spelling.

I think Scotland comes out well out of this release

😳

[img] [/img][

Apologies for my non liberal views and poor spelling.

Ah I see .......... you expect forgiveness and understanding from others do you ?

When Peter sutcliffe is dying of cancer he will be released on "compassionate" grounds.

Unlikely since he is being held in a psychiatric hospital, not a prison, and he is not in Scotland therefore not covered by the Prisoners and Criminal Proceedings (Scotland) Act.

But yes, the act apparently grants Scottish Ministers the power to release any prisoner on compassionate grounds when they are terminally ill and close to death.

enfht: yeah you're right - Megrahi looks like he is larging it up and just laughing at us all. Clearly fit as a fiddle.

Oh no. My mistake. Actually he looks a lot like a dying man struggling to walk down steps despite a cane and assistance.

Can I just say - and in follow up to another recent thread - how proud I am of my country today.

.whereas I, for the first time in my life, am completely ashamed of mine.

In Scotland, we have some simple, straightforward and easy to understand phrases - "don't want to do the time? don't do the crime" is one

Like the Iraq invasion releasing Meghrahi was just about oil and pretending anything else is simply an insult. Libya has oil it wants to start exploiting, we have expertise, and not much oil left. Doesn't take a ****ing genius to work it out, does it?

GrahamS the dude on the left is Gadaffi's son raising his fist in victory.

The guy will be dead before the STW massive have stopped argueing about what tyres for the BBB!
I lost my dad to prostate cancer, and believe me he hasn't got an easy way out.
And do you REALLY believe he did the bombing singlehandly?

No, and I'd like to see those who were involved brought to some kind of justice. That'll never happen now, will it?

Anokdale, send us an email (mail address is in my profile) I come to Tripoli at least once a month for various NOC/Local business

And Al-Meghari/Libya never did it

I wonder if similar treatment would be given to the people who are known to have shot down the Iranian airliner killing 230+? Oh yeah, I forgot, they weren't put on trial let alone sentenced. They may even have been given a medal or two. Their govt (US) didn't apologise or pay compensation. Unlike the Libyans.

"don't want to do the time? don't do the crime"

He's done the time, and now he's going home to die.

Or do you think we should keep his corpse in prison until it's served it's 27 years ?

No, when he dies, he either goes into a pauper's grave, or someone pays to ship the box home. Just like anyone else who dies in jail.

Just like anyone else who dies in jail.

Not in Britain. Terminally people are generally sent home to die, but if someone was to die suddenly in prison, why would they be buried in a 'pauper's grave' ?

Have you arrived from the Victorian age in a time machine or something ? 😕

GrahamS the dude on the left is Gadaffi's son raising his fist in victory.

yes and I think any "Hero's Welcome" for him is in very poor taste, not to mention deeply insensitive (on a diplomatic and personal level). But that doesn't change the fact that I believe we did absolutely the right thing in letting him go home to die.

Why is it insensitive? The Libyans (i.e. the whole country) were set up and suffered for years, now America and Britain are in a desperate scramble for Oil, why shouldn't they thumb there nose at the west and make us/them suffer?