I honestly don’t know why some people start clutching their pearls at any mention of carrying some sort of photo identification, it’s just a useful thing to have, even if it’s just for picking up parcels from the Post Office, where it’s always a requirement.
When government issued Police Warrant cards (press reports of serving officers not permitted to vote), HMRC warrant cards and social services ID (also press reports) are not allowed then it's obvious that something is amiss and if only a small set of ID's is acceptable then the whole idea is unacceptable.
@Sandwich Even more obvious when a young person's Oyster card wasn't valid, but an OAP's was?
I don't want to go down yet another rabbit hole but I'm going to anyway. In countries where people have a state ID card this is a non-issue and not a big deal, while people are asked for ID to vote they've got it, so no problem. Given that I carry my work photo ID, my driving license, and when I was still in the Reserves a MOD90 I really didn't see what the big deal was with carrying a state ID card.
Edit - the massive database of non-ID stuff HMG were planning to go with it was a different issue, of course
TJ you’re making stuff up. Labour did very well in leave voting areas, which tells you clearly that their policy on the EU is the right one. Lib Dem gains were in the blue wall where people would rather cut an arm off than vote labour. The boost in the green vote was almost certainly down to disillusioned labour voters fed up with Starmer’s austerity mindset. It’s all good for those of us on the progressive side of the political spectrum, there’s no need to invent stuff that didn’t happen.
So absolutely everything and anything except Brexit. Definitely not Brexit. Nothing to see here. Move along now...
Interesting that TJ is making stuff up but you have a direct line into the minds of the electorate.
No dazh. You are so wedded to labour's brexiteer stance you refuse to see the damage it is doing. Its far from a great result for labour. Despite the disaster for the tories pro eu parties made as many gains as labour did.
That does not signal good news for labour
No dazh. You are so wedded to......
I find it astonishing that someone who is so obsessed with one issue and one issue only should use language like "wedded" and "blind", there is a serious lack of self awareness.
You still haven't provided evidence that brexit was the issue which most concerned voters this election TJ. Are you struggling?
Ed Davy has publicly claimed that he doesn't want the LibDems to focus on rejoining the EU, any evidence that he changed his strategy for this election?
Im not as obsessed as the labour brexiteers who make this weird pretence that the can make brexit work and who deny the clear direction of public opinion
It weird the denial and attempted gaslighting
The public are not daft and despite labour's brexiteer stance public opinion is moving steadily to rejoin
Oh sod off TJ. At worst it's dogmatic debate but accusing people with a different opinion of obsessed gaslighting is below you.
Last point - I listened to the R4 news last night and the Oxford Prof of Politics was clear that right now don't frighten the horses remains the right tactic. Someone whose opinion carries far more gravitas than you no matter how many times you say it. I'd look it up and link to the interview but you aren't interested so **** it, I can't be bothered to waste the time.
I'm out - this is not debate, it's like talking to a wall.
The gaslighting is from the labour party pretending they can make brexit work.
Public opinion is clear as linked to earlier and tbese results arevery lukewarm for labour
Public opinion is clear as linked to earlier and tbese results arevery lukewarm for labour
You should share your views with the leader of the LibDems.
Davey counters that the UK’s relationship with Europe isn’t at the forefront of voters’ minds. “When I’m on the doorstep, people don’t talk about the House of Lords; they don’t talk about Brexit. What they’re talking about is the health service,” he said. “Voters are not blaming Brexit. What they talk about is the Tories’ incompetent policies.”
the polling is only going one way. another 18 months till the election. its rapid movement. BY the election even labout is going tohave to admit itsurely
https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1649474567469932561?s=20
I know it’s hard for some people to accept that voters aren’t quite as right-wing and racist as they like to think they are, but sometimes they have to accept election results even if they don’t fit into their preferred narrative.
After 12 years of complete shit from the Tories a good number of people are still voting for them over other parties. Where I live the tories got 26 out of 48, so the voters of those 26 are presumably happy with what the tories have done/are doing?
Are they right wing and racist - the ones I have had the displeasure to speak with seem to be.
Anyway, lets see how the real election goes shall we.
I asked you to provide evidence that brexit was the main issue in last Thursday's local elections, not the lasted poll on the issue.
I have to assume that you couldn't find any evidence otherwise you would undoubtedly have provided it.
I asked you to provide evidence that brexit was the main issue in last Thursday’s local elections, not the lasted poll on the issue.
Brexit possibly wasn't the main issue.
However, Brexit is just part of the bigger problem which is Labour acting like a poor Tory tribute act and aping their greatest hits which all started with their u-turn on Brexit/the EU/SM/CU/FOM...
They should be out of sight by now and yet it doesn't even look like they are going to have a majority after the next GE. I'm not sure this election provides any evidence they are doing things right.
Think I'd be pushing Labour on anti-austerity rather than focussing on Brexit currently.
I'd imagine that's where the biggest bunch of progressives can come together.
Brexit just splits the people. As much as I despise Starmer's two faced approach to Brexit - it is better he leaves it alone for a while to fix other things.
And to state the obvious things were rough before Brexit so get your rose-tinted specs off.
Please, somebody, make the bickering stop
No way we're all gonna agree.
Just part of the process.
No way we’re all gonna agree.
Well I think that everyone on this thread agrees that the Tories are very bad people.
Imagine the bickering if stw reflected public opinion and more than 25% of contributors on this thread were Tory supporters.
Labour increased their councillor numbers by approx 25%, clearly a good result for them.
LD and Greens by 33% and 50%, so fair to say a better result for them.
Where I live, there has been a sitting conservative MP since 1923. And not only that, there's never been a Labour MP here or in any adjacent Constituency.
So any policies which grow Lib Dem support here naturally weaken the tories. Obviously Labour growing support back in their traditional areas does the same. Seems as if the Labour policy on Brexit is intended to deliver exactly this?
Well I think that everyone on this thread agrees that the Tories are very bad people.
For sure.
It would be great perhaps if there was more unity with pushing back on market driven economics otherwise it's a personality competence driven offensive.
I asked you to provide evidence that brexit was the main issue in last Thursday’s local elections, not the lasted poll on the issue.
I never said that so pointless in trying to show you evidence of something I didn't say
TJ you’re making stuff up. Labour did very well in leave voting areas, which tells you clearly that their policy on the EU is the right one.
TJ is clearly wrong that Labour is throwing votes on the bonfire in formerly Remain areas in England - the actual votes contradict this. It is also frankly nuts that any position softer than "Brexit was wrong and we want back into the EU immediately" is being described as Brexiteer.
But I wouldn't interpret that as a particular endorsement of Labour's Brexit and EU policy. I think it may also be a sign that voters just don't care about Brexit as passionately as STW would have you believe - especially in local elections.
I asked you to provide evidence that brexit was the main issue in last Thursday’s local elections, not the last poll on the issue.
I never said that so pointless in trying to show you evidence of something I didn’t say
So now you can't even remember what you posted. Among the many comments you made with regards to brexit alledgedly being "the" big issue of last Thursday's local elections was this:
Rejoin is now far more popular than stay out and the election results show this.
Provide evidence that brexit was such an important issue in last Thursday's local elections. Provide evidence of LibDem and Green politicians talking about brexit during the local election campaign, election leaflets focusing on brexit, newspaper articles discussing the role of brexit in the local elections campaigns, anything.
The leader of the LibDems claims that no one is talking about brexit on the doorstep, is he lying?
Anyone know what's happening in Redcar? Rumours of a third recount on Tue morning...
They struggle to count past double digits in Redcar, they are probably flying in an expert.
However, Brexit is just part of the bigger problem which is Labour acting like a poor Tory tribute act and aping their greatest hits which all started with their u-turn on Brexit/the EU/SM/CU/FOM…
I will never vote Labour in the near future on the basis of Brexit and their appeasement of the Tories. I don't care if there's a bigger plan - this is what matters to me. So I'm in a minority? Almost certainly, but I doubt it's a minority of one.
Yeah there's more than a whiff of corruption about that Redcar stuff
https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1654802472165163014?t=jMNKPoL_SsQfGSV91Uq5pw&s=19
Yeah there’s more than a whiff of corruption about that Redcar stuff
The freeport stuff definitely is dodgy as hell.
I would guess for the count it was rather close and count 2 got a different result meaning they want another to figure which one is right.
Interested in TJ's take on this story. Presumably Labour would be better off not winning back brexit supporting voters in the former 'red wall'?
The previous Labour voters who swung to Boris' Get Brexit Done BS were bound to come back to Labour due to 2 main reasons;
- Brexit has been done (well that is what is said) and their lives are no different
- They voted in a Tory party and their lives are now worse
The few seats they might not take there and the polling is not clear that it would cost them would be far outweighed by the gains they would make in other remain areas.
Look at the gains lib dems and greens made. More than labour made.
The focus on being brexity is costing them dear.
The focus on being brexity is costing them dear.
I'd say that the focus on being Tory-y is costing them dear.
The previous Labour voters who swung to Boris’ Get Brexit Done BS were bound to come back to Labour due to 2 main reasons;
Yeah but the point is that if labour were pro-rejoin as TJ keeps going on about would those voters have voted labour? Seems pretty obvious to me that labour would be well and truly screwed if they followed TJ's advice. It's one of the few things that Starmer has got right.
Thats not what the local elections show.
Votes and seats gained for labour by being brexity leaves room for lib dems greens and snp to take seats.
The results from the locals show this cleary.
Labour winning over people who voted Tory at the last election (be it to push Brexit through or to keep Corbyn out) was always going to upset some of our armchair political strategists. It’s far from over the line yet… but it’s going far better than I expected… neck and neck between the two big parties with a year ‘till the next general election was the best I’d have dared to hope for looking forward in 2019… these local elections suggest that it’s going far far better than that… with the bonus that the other opposition parties also look to have revived their election chances. Last week was a good week.
We now have a Tory majority council.
Interestingly , the local Tory MP’s wife was booted out of her ward . Bet it’s nice in their house at the moment 😂
Let’s see if his promise to get all the money he has fought to get for the area spent.
I shan’t be holding my breath
Votes and seats gained for labour by being brexity leaves room for lib dems greens and snp to take seats.
So you'd prefer labour to be blocking the lib dems and greens rather than taking seats from the tories? That seems like a very odd position for someone who wants the tories out. From where I'm standing it's the perfect combination. Labour taking back the red wall from the tories, with the Lib Dems and perhaps greens taking seats from the tories in traditional tory areas. The only thing required for that to happen is Labour to stick to its policy on accepting brexit.
What Dazh said.
I don’t know why you all keep arguing with TJ over this. You aren’t going to change his mind. If you said the sky was blue he’d say it’s brexit. Let him have it. It doesn’t do anyone any harm. He’s like that Japanese soldier found in the woods twenty years after the rest of the world had moved on bless him.
So you are happy with labour following a course that makes a majority very unlikely?
They need to takes seats in remain areas but the locals show they can't do this.
Polling and the locals show pro eu parties did much better and the move towards rejoin is growing all the time.
Labour are chasing a shrinking narrowing sector at the expense of a growing sector.
the move towards rejoin is growing all the time
It’s a 10-15 years move, even if it happens at all. The election is about a year away. Wakey wakey. Another Tory government is not a price worth paying to try and make a point about longer term plans with our neighbours. Labour can (not saying they will, but they can if in office) start working towards a closer rather than more distant relationship with the EU in less than two years time, making any future closer arrangements (be that membership or something else) more achievable sooner.
[ EDIT: although if your aim is an independent Scotland in the EU or SM, then perhaps another Tory government is the price worth paying to achieve that. ]
So you'd prefer a course that makes a Tory majority more likely TJ? Given you'll be voting SNP, wouldn't a coalition be more likely to suit you?
I dont vote snp
The locals and the polling shows pro eu is a vote and seat winner overall and public mood is moving forther to rejoin.
Labours being brexity is reducing their chances of a najority
It not a 10 or 15 year move in public opinion to rejoin. Its moving rapidly and is now 61 to 39 percent.
Starmer is chasing a shrinking sector of the elctorate
No, but it’ll take 10-15 years to happen, if it ever does. No point making this next general election about it.
