No, you’re the one who tried to make the argument that what Davey had to say was relevant and introduced some dubious electoral arithmetic to prove that we should listen to him.
Er, I didn't mention anything about "popularity".
TJ said that people voted LibDem in last week's local elections because of the LibDem stance on brexit.
I pointed out that the leader of the LibDems claims that when he talks to people on their doorsteps they don't want to talk about brexit.
Which I think is a perfectly reasonable thing to point out. I have no idea why you think it is ridiculous for me to mention it or why it is in some way connected with how popular the SNP are.
Presumably you went off on one because I pointed out something which you found awkward?
Edit: And yes I also pointed out that the LibDems received a couple of million votes more than the SNP. I have no idea why you might feel it is unreasonable for me to point that out.
Most of all though I want the tortes out and I will vote to facilitate that.
I'm a big fan of tortes. Less keen on Tories though.
Presumably you went off on one because I pointed out something which you found awkward?
No, you just did your usual thing where in your mind you've made a very clever 'gotcha' move and you're clearly proud as punch of yourself and I thought I'd do my usual and point out how ridiculous your 'gotcha' move was.
Same old, same old...
I don't know why you think pointing out simple facts is "clever".
I don’t know why you think pointing out simple facts is “clever”.
I don't. Pointing out simple facts without context is your way of setting 'clever' traps for people and you get all excited when you think someone has fallen into one.
I just like pointing out how obvious what you're doing is and how it's not quite as clever as you think it is.
You think that pointing out a simple and straightforward fact is "a clever trap", how strange.
Anyway putting brexit and the SNP to one side, what do you think of the local elections results?
You think that pointing out a simple and straightforward fact without context is in the mind of someone who isn't quite as smart as they think they are, “a clever trap”, how strange.
FTFY
Anyway putting brexit and the SNP to one side, what do you think of the local elections results?
England gonna do what England gonna do. Nice to see the Greens do well though.
Ed Davey is obviously a nazi.
I missed that little gem. It's an odd thing to say about the only leader of a mainstream party (in England, at least) committed to the reversal of the biggest political gain the far right have made in decades. Plain odd. 🤷♂️
One minute Brexit isn't a live issue - the next it is, but only because remainers won't sit in obedient silence about it. I really can't keep up.
I do know, however, that flushing 5.5%+ of our GDP down the bog just so we can avoid mentioning Brexit is a bit weird.
You’re developing some weird persecution complex where you’re suggesting that it’s “verboten” for you to talk about Remain
As I said on the previous page, there are plenty that would love for this to be the case.
or that someone is preventing you from trying to reopen the Brexit referendum.
You can no more reopen the referendum than you could reopen the 2014 world cup. It's done, it's referended.
We could have another one. Or of course, we could finally accept that referenda are bloody stupid and what's actually required is for our politicians to put their big boy pants on and start acting in the best interests of the country rather than themselves.
It’s an odd thing to say about the only leader of a mainstream party
Well you would know danny. 😂
Sick enough to wave bye-bye to 5.5%+ of our GDP just to avoid mentioning it?
Probably.
You may be attributing a degree of political engagement that the majority of people simply don't have. In the referendum* around q quarter of those who were eligible to vote didn't even bother. Of those that do turn up on election day I'd bet that many couldn't name a single policy from their chosen party / candidate.
Plus of course, many of the True Believers will go through increasingly desperate mental logistics to blame negative impacts on anything other the brexit.
(* - chosen as an example as it's the only stat I know off the top of my head)
I pointed out that the leader of the LibDems claims that when he talks to people on their doorsteps they don’t want to talk about brexit.
There is a subtle but possibly fairly important difference between "don't want to" and "didn't."
I also mentioned this could just be Davey signaling to Starmer he's ready to have his belly rubbed.
Sick enough to wave bye-bye to 5.5%+ of our GDP just to avoid mentioning it?
You think people lie awake at night worrying about percentage points of GDP? Do they bollocks. The only people who care about GDP are economists and politicians. If GDP was the primary concern of voters they'd be working weekends and sending their kids out to work. The prosperity of voters is no longer tied to productivity gains, 'hard work' or small percentage changes in GDP. It hasn't been for decades. The people who gain or lose from changes in GDP are mostly those who are so rich they don't have to worry about it, so why would voters care about it? Why do you care about it?
@dantsw13 The thing is that we’ve never really had a two party system, certainly not since the beginning of the 20th century or thereabouts.
Maybe they are pro-EU but if they get given a sniff of power they’ll quickly abandon that stance so who cares what they say now?
To repeat myself again, any coalition agreement will have to be ratified by the party membership, which remains almost exclusively internationalist and pro-EU, even if this isn’t what the main focus of campaigning is at the moment. And after the 2010-15 experience a lot has been learned, the membership will be wary of any coalition and any coalition agreement would have to be drawn up much tighter. And Sir Ed is not Nick Clegg.
You’re developing some weird persecution complex where you’re suggesting that it’s “verboten” for you to talk about Remain
As I said on the previous page, there are plenty that would love for this to be the case.
Including all the brexiteers and apologists for labours position on this thread who would be delighted if we shut up about it as they would not feel the need to defend the indefensible and indeed some of whom have tried to shut folk up
Brexit is not over , all the border controls are not in place yet, more damage is still to be done, public opinion is moving away from brexit at a rate of knots and we will NEVER shut up about it and will continue to but the blame where it lies
Brexit is not over , all the border controls are not in place yet
Much to the annoyance of many rejoiners. They'll be extra disappointed now that the fingerprint and facial recognition checks are going to be delayed.
Not annoyed at all. Just its one of the things not implemented yet. threre are others especially onthe UK side of the border and numerous court cases ongoing for breach of the withdrawal treaty.
More annoying I would have thought for the brexiteers and their apologists who want to pretend its all over and that labour can make brexit work.
Its not over, its not going to go away and labour are swimming against the tide
I pointed out that the leader of the LibDems claims that when he talks to people on their doorsteps they don’t want to talk about brexit.
There is a subtle but possibly fairly important difference between “don’t want to” and “didn’t.”
There's some desperate straw clutching going on here. The leader of the largest pro-EU party claims that ordinary voters don't want to talk to him about brexit, and instead want to talk to him about other stuff which affects their lives.
It might be difficult for someone who lives in the reassuring security of the stw echo chamber to understand this, after all brexit eventually pops up on every political thread, including ones about local elections, but try to accept it is unlikely that Ed Davey's words are intended to mean anything other the obvious.
If you read the article which the quote comes from it makes that clear.
There’s some desperate straw clutching going on here. The leader of the largest pro-EU party claims that ordinary voters don’t want to talk to him about brexit, and instead want to talk to him about other stuff which affects their lives.
There is, you're quite right.
That isn't what the quote that you yourself (repeatedly) posted said, you've spun it. There are plenty of things I don't talk about on a daily basis but would happily do so if prompted. How long do you suppose a canvasser spends on each doorstep, do we reckon the residents are inviting him in for a three-course meal whilst they work their way through a list?
And lest we forget, these are local elections. I'd expect that rather than brexit, the burning issues du jour after the NHS would likely be the potholes on the high street, youths smoking weed outside Aldi and the amount of dogshit in the park.
I have to go out, I'll read the article when I get back. Apologies if I have got hold of the wrong end of the stick based on something you've posted taken out of context.
what do you think of the local elections results?
Everyone seems to be mentioning the 1000 seat losses for the Tories without mentioning that the 2019 baseline was one of the worst results for them in many many years, so this is awful for them. Which is great. I look forward to a number of fairly high profile/smug Tories getting their P45s handed to them (if they haven't decided to, ahem, pursue other directions in their careers by then).
Definite tactical voting (a la 'anyone but tories') going on and certainly a whiff of orchestrated lab/libdem coordination in certain seats too.
Interesting to see how the Libdem vote holds up in a GE, they've always benefitted from the protest vote at locals. Can see them being viable candidate for certain Tory marginals though.
Hopefully Reform UK also throw their boat in to water down the Tory vote even more.
So, do we think the NHS and the police will be better or worse resourced to deal with shit in the park, youths smoking weed behind Aldi etc when we now 'earn' £19 as a nation when it used to be £20?
Obvs police haven't dealt with dog shit in parks pretty much ever.
Sure, we can postulate that not all of that extra GDP would not trickle down, but no one can pretend that a country that is 94.5% as productive as it used to be will have as much to spend on services etc. Or are we just going to print more money?
If losing 5.5% is not an issue - why don't we go for 10% and maybe pull out of the Geneva Convention too?
@breatheeasy Rumour has it Gove has been reconsidering his future over the weekend…
Rumour has it Gove has been reconsidering his future over the weekend…
Well it was long evident that leading Brexiteers were going to be handsomely rewarded by the people whose bidding they were doing.
Plenty of consultancy work and non exec directorships to go around, I'm sure.
BTW - I was three minutes late to delete that post above. No one bother to reply to it, please, because I can't be bothered to engage further with anyone who seriously thinks pissing away 5.5%+ of our GDP is a price worth paying to not have to "mention ze brexit".
Sure, we can postulate that not all of that extra GDP would not trickle down, but no one can pretend that a country that is 94.5% as productive as it used to be will have as much to spend on services etc.
Government spending is not as a consequence of GDP despite what you believe.
It's a political choice and if anything when GDP drops the government should spend more to try and give life to the economy.
This logic is doing the rounds. It's tosh.
The flip side is I don't expect a Tory or Labour government to fix this through well targeted investment either.
Or far more popular.
Only if you make a weird circular argument and limit counting their support to the places they are popular.
I can’t be bothered to engage further with anyone who seriously thinks pissing away 5.5%+ of our GDP is a price worth paying to not have to “mention ze brexit”.
No one has said it's a price worth paying not to mention brexit, but it's a valid question as to why working people would care very much about a few percent of GDP when almost none of it comes to them. Besides, if a (debatable) 5% loss in GDP is the main argument behind rejoinng then you've already lost the argument. No one is going to vote to rejoin the EU just so they can avoid a 5% loss of GDP, because no one apart from a few politicians, businessmen and economists cares very much about it.
I can’t be bothered to engage further with anyone who seriously thinks pissing away 5.5%+ of our GDP is a price worth paying
People struggle with big numbers (and I mean that generally not pejoratively, it's part of the human condition). 5.5% doesn't all that sound much does it. Assuming I've worked this out correctly:
5.5% of our GDP (using 2021 figures) is £136,239,985,750.
By way of comparison, the £350M/week bus lie was £18,200,000,000pa.
Ie, the hit to GDP is 750% greater than the figure that Leave.EU (falsely) claimed was our EU membership bill. If we use the actual net membership cost figure it's closer to 1500%.
there are plenty that would love for this to be the case...
some of whom have tried to shut folk up
Are you, in fact, saying that you are being persecuted for banging on about Brexit? How is it prohibited? Who is preventing you talking about Brexit?
If you haven't heard "we won you lost shut up and get over it" before, I can only assume you've been living in a cave for the last half a decade.
Nonetheless. There are a handful of prolific posters on STW who are really keen to cancel the discussion. There's a couple on this thread. I'd name names but it feels a bit redundant.
There are a handful of prolific posters on STW who are really keen to cancel the discussion.
It's the 'why' that interests me, TBH.
There are a handful of prolific posters on STW who are really keen to cancel the discussion
On the contrary, I'm very enthusiastic about discussing EU membership. But bring something new to the discussion beyond 'we told you so' and the associated glee when people suffer from it. The remain side of the argument has descended to the level of the brexiteers themselves. 'You lost get over it' on one side, 'ha ha we told you so' on the other. It's infantile.
There are a handful of prolific posters on STW who are really keen to cancel the discussion.
It’s the ‘why’ that interests me, TBH.
It's the why you keep cancelling yourself and reappearing with a new username that interests me Danny.
I suppose there is an 'opportunity cost' to EU membership. We have to choose. That means what would life be like if the UK was still in? More of the labour market being undermined by cheap Eastern European labour..? But easy access to Eu schemes like Horizon and Objective 1 status.
Leaving has created a huge impact on the UK. What we are lacking are new laws and a framework to operate effectively. ie new trade deals, import/export rules with EU, access to cheap labour, effective border controls. These are the details which need good policy. The current cabinet are just not capable of doing it.
bring something new to the discussion beyond ‘we told you so’ and the associated glee when people suffer from it.
You may be correct regarding some corners but I doubt "glee" is the right word in most cases. Rather it's hard to be sympathetic towards the vocal cheerleaders like, as a random example, Tim Martin who are one by one realising their mistake yet are still doubling down.
The fundamental flaw in this train of thought is that there are no winners and losers amongst the electorate. We all win or lose collectively, and it's increasingly turning out to be the latter isn't it. The only winners of brexit are the Rees-Moggs of this world who are laughing all the way to their offshore bank.
Leave voters were duped. It was a highly sophisticated confidence trick. It is really that simple. The sooner they hold their hand up and recognise that, the sooner the rest of the country will be more charitable towards them. If someone is struggling in 2023 and yet still defending brexit then a pox on them, it's a problem of their own machinations largely driven by xenophobia and I cannot bring myself to care.
"Sorry" would go a long way also.
But bring something new to the discussion beyond ‘we told you so’ and the associated glee when people suffer from it.
OK.
When the shit hit the fan recently in Sudan, if we had still been in the EU we wouldn't have had to send special forces in just to get the consular staff alone out. The EU airlift was a far better and more joined up operation.
If we were still in the EU, we would have a returns agreement in place with France for the small boat refugees - although that wouldn't mean being able to say a blanket 'no' to all.
If we were still in the EU, Kent would not be one big lorry park as often as it is.
If we were still in the EU we would have access to Horizon funding for these world class universities that we are constantly trumpeting.
If we were still in the EU we would have had a seat at the table in the recent EU-US talks about future economic cooperation with regards to the more high tech end of trade that we ought to be targeting (renewables, IT etc).
That's just a few. No 'I told you so', no triumphalism - refute them.
If you categorise having obvious stuff pointed out as 'I told you so', then there is no room for debate - but I guess that is kind of the idea.
Now, that's it for me because, frankly, if people are determined to avoid acknowledging what we all know to be true, then there is literally no point. No one has been called anything nasty, no abuse, nothing to lash out against other than several examples of where being outside of the EU has cost the UK.
A Bientot.
If we were still in the EU we could probably be able to buy strawberries and eggs without supermarkets rationing them.
Anyway. We should probably try and get back on topic before this thread gets turned into Yet Another Brexit Argument and the moderators close it.
Anyway. We should probably try and get back on topic before this thread gets turned into Yet Another Brexit Argument and the moderators close it.
Yes. There's no point anyway - for reasons given above.
👍
A Bientot.
And off he goes again. Soon to return with another username. What is it now? Five? Six?
If we were still in the EU
And that's where the remain/rejoin movement goes wrong. We're now out of the EU, probably never to return within our lifetimes. Any argument that starts with those words is hypothetical. Instead start asking, how can we have better relations with the EU, how can we have more beneficial trade, how can we collaborate on security, scientific, economic, technological and other policy areas for our mutual benefit? That's where we are now, mourning about about what we've lost and hoping for it to come back is a pointless waste of energy.
Yes, maybe, we need to suck up Brexit.....
But the speed that the opinion polls are showing the scale of bregret, the # of younger folks who want a part of the EU, the impact on trade....
But we may see the swing toward rejoin move very quickly
Watching the Wizard of Oz remake on Saturday, and the lack of engagement from younger demographics suggests that the tory attempts to skew the agenda are, ultimately, doomed
