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Feels like you didn’t really want opinions unless they agreed with your own.
Seems like one of those threads.
So no source then. An opinion. Right. Got it.
I mean, it's Newton's first law of motion, but I suppose that was only Newton's opinions so doesn't hold much sway on the internet in 2024 🤣
A 23 kg ebike with an 80kg rider v a 17kg bike with an 90kg rider going downhill?
You will have to explain them ‘facts’.
Indeed, straw men are always lighter, the bulk density of straw is pretty low.
Come on, if you're not getting in more laps per week on an e-bike, then what's the point? If it's no better than your normal bike just pay the normal bike price and take the normal bike?
@Aidy. Not an impression I meant to give, genuinely interested to hear what other people think. The " well don't go then" contents don't really add anything of value do they?
@mark88. The only major building that's happened in the last four years were done in partnership with Whyte bikes who briefly linked up with the place. They built a line. Completely rebuilt is a stretch. The is no maintainance from the owners.
I don't use Facebook, just reporting what I've been shown via friends who do use it via WhatsApp.
They probably charge more simply because they can. And if people pay it, they'll just raise it again.
Seems bizarre to me. Not sure I’ll even renew with my normal bike at £80
Tell them that and go elsewhere.
It's not a tax. There is no obligation on your part to pay it.
What happens if you have more than one bike? Would you get turned away?
The ‘discussion’ on Facebook gets interesting later when the owner calls one of his customers “gay” for asking why there is a price increase.
Assuming this is as presented, that'd be enough to take my custom elsewhere rather than give them money.
What happens if you have more than one bike? Would you get turned away?
Presumably, if you've paid for a normal bike pass, you can turn up with as many different normal bikes as you choose, but you would get turned away if you turned up with an ebike. And if you've paid for an ebike you can bring as many different ebikes And normal bikes as you chose.
Ultimately the price is not directly linked to the costs of running the place, but is what the market will bear, which is pretty much standard practice, it's a private venture either pay up or go somewhere else.
The new Privateers are the same weight as my e-bike…
My ‘basic high school physics’ would lead me to think the most trail erosion that requires maintenance would be from actually good riders smashing berms. Speed is a more important determinant than mass (0.5*mv^2).
Hot take : Since e-bikes are exclusively owned by mincing fatties, they probably cause less erosion per run.
But also e-bikers probably just do more runs. Don’t overthink it.
But good riders are smoother unless they're shralping for the 'gram.
I realise there's a lot of whataboutery that can be applied to my comment but like for like (same rider) ebikes will cause more erosion. Does that mean a TMX with Super Monsters gets a free pass? In theory, no but in practice who is actually riding one of those regularly?
Speed is a more important determinant than mass (0.5*mv^2).
That's a measure of kinetic energy. Trail erosion/damage is better related to friction.
Not necessarily so. What’s an ebike, an extra 15kgs?
You gotta factor in the extra weight of the rider 😉
@Cougar. Apparently it's got worse on Facebook. After the gay comments, the owner has gone for the "DM abuse" route of public relations.
Disposable income tax.
Not an impression I meant to give, genuinely interested to hear what other people think. The ” well don’t go then” contents don’t really add anything of value do they?
Well. It was what I thought. I didn't see a problem with them charging what they wanted based on bicycle type, and that people could ride elsewhere if they didn't want to pay.
But obviously that's not an opinion that you're genuinely interested in hearing.
Weight just isn't that big of a deal, it'll make a little difference but be absolutely lost in the rounding compared with people doing more runs. An ebike visitor could easily end up being the equivalent of 2 council bike visitors in those terms. Same for speed, ebikes will probably be a bit faster on average just because they can recover speed with less effort, that could be a bigger effec than weight but again it'll never match up to the extra runs, that's a multiplier not an adder.
It's all a bit of a muchness though, the only thing that matters as a punter is if it's worth it to you, do you ride there enough, do you get enough out of it. It's no different to the argument "but this is really expensive to arrange", that can explain why a price is what it is but it doesn't make the cost/benefit any different for me.
I think a pretty good thought experiment is, would you pay the lower rate and only ride an analogue bike there? Or does that not seem worth the saving? Just turn it around. I suspect not many ebike owners would decide to leave the ebike at home in order to save a few quid. If it's worth spending thousands of pounds extra for an ebike, probably it's worth spending tens of pounds extra to ride it, in a convenient custom built location someone's providing?
(it'd be really nice to see places that have a higher ebike charge have some sort of disability discount though)
Doesn't seem that unreasonable to me, just ride somewhere else if you don't want to pay?
“An ebike having more weight and power than ordinary bike isn’t an opinion, it’s a fact”
A 23 kg ebike with an 80kg rider v a 17kg bike with an 90kg rider going downhill?
You will have to explain them ‘facts’.
well I said bike not bike plus rider
However if the people are on average the same weight the ebike plus rider will be heavier.
I have no useful experience of riding an ebike. But I did read on here that the thing to do is ride downhill in maximum boost. That’s for max acceleration out of the corners.
Finally I offer an opinion. But please tell me if you think I’m wrong
If I add up the weight of everyone I’ve seen on an ebike and divide by the number of people I’ve seen on an ebike then I get a far larger number than if I do the same for people on acoustic bikes
All of this cod-Physics is neither here nor there. You're all trying to explain something based on what's in the head of someone whose idea of an insult is "you're gay," I highly doubt that they had a slide rule out when coming up with this year's pricing.
The land owner is charging a premium because they can. Either they think people will pay it, or they think that e-bike riders are antisocial throbbers and don't want their custom so they've banged up the price to discourage them.
@Cougar. Apparently it’s got worse on Facebook. After the gay comments, the owner has gone for the “DM abuse” route of public relations.
Good grief.
After creating Southampton Bike Park (SBP) and in the process of creating Southern4X at the Freespace track in Eastleigh this is an interesting thread for me. for SBP I went for a free to ride set up as it is small and fully maintained by unpaid volunteers and what little cost we incur, we can cover with t-shirt and hoody sales.
For thee 4Cross track we plan to have free ride on your own. There will be a membership fee for the club, probably starting next year as people can get this year free if they help dig. the membership will get you access to training days when we have the start gates running as start gates are something that are not normally available plus various other benefits.
If we were to differentiate between e-bikes and none-bikes at either place I would struggle to justify the difference. The most damage to SBP is done by beginners or bad riders who case the jumps and ruin the lips or ride over the edge of the berms. As a fat person I weigh with limited skills more than a light person on an e-bike even before I get on a bike and so probably would be classed as a high damage unit.
I suspect the charging strategy is based on the fact e-bikes are easily recognisable as a category so can be differentiated against. If you try to charge differently based on skill level then you have to do a skills assessment for every rider each time.
My ‘basic high school physics’ would lead me to think the most trail erosion that requires maintenance would be from actually good riders smashing berms. Speed is a more important determinant than mass (0.5*mv^2).
Slower riders drag their brakes causing braking bumps, are more likely to lock up the back wheel and cause more erosion.
I would say it's more to do with the fact that ebikes are many, many pounds to buy, so it's quite clear the owners can afford £150 extra to enjoy riding it on trails someone else has built.
After the gay comments, the owner has gone for the “DM abuse” route of public relations.
people (including troll account) have tried to start a public pile-on on their Facebook page and you have posted here (And presumably elsewhere?). Doesn't excuse the wording but I don't blame him for feeling attacked.
The bike park is a commercial venture, either ride there and pay or go else where.
What's your problem with that?
What’s your problem with that?
Think the op wants some drama. Stop feeding him.
Twice the fun, twice the price, no?
@mark88. I only posted here because I was interested in hearing mountain bikers' opinions on the pricing. This is about the only 'social media' I haven't deleted. I got tired of all the weird arguments...
@Bruce I don't have a problem per se, just think the price difference is a bit much. If they planned on 20% premium, like BPW pedal passes it would make more sense.
@alpin. I was after opinions, not drama. Was hoping for some more grown up debate than my friends are seeing on Facebook, but never mind.
As many many people have pointed out, I can ride elsewhere. Based on the zero maintainance, I probably will, even at the lower price for my normal bike.
Think E-bike day ticket at the Bull track are £12 that's competitive and in line with many other sites. I do hear of insurance expense because approximately 50% of e-bikes are chipped are are classed as mopeds and not MTB? Not sure if that's a factor in this case but
If I take my e-bike to a push up it’s 100% so I can get more runs in before I’m worn out. Hence I’d accept paying more. Not sure about double, I’d just look at the price and decide whether I was happy to pay or not.
@Worldclassaccident. Thanks for the insight from the parks perspective, interesting.
How does liability insurance work for a free trip ride place then? Or is it not relevant?
How often would you say you dig/maintain the trails?
@bmxrad. If that 20% premium for day tickets was replicated in the membership price, it would be £100 not £150.
I mean, it’s Newton’s first law of motion, but I suppose that was only Newton’s opinions so doesn’t hold much sway on the internet in 2024
He's never been the same since he landed on his head when he fell out of that apple tree.
It says normal day ticket is £8 e bike day ticket is £12 that's a 50% Premium not 20% but I take your point. That said many similar sites are £12.5 for normal bikes so I don't see the day ticket as being excessive?
I mean, it’s Newton’s first law of motion, but I suppose that was only Newton’s opinions so doesn’t hold much sway on the internet in 2024
It's all the ad work he's been doing lately.
Oh, it's been ages since I bought a day ticket, thought it was £10.
That should make a membership £120.
It might not seem like a big difference, but if it was £120 AND they did trail repair I'd probably swallow the premium.
They must do some trail repair surely? Otherwise it'd be absolutely sodded by now. You might not see any improvements, but just maintaining the status quo will take a degree of effort.
I Am Not A Trail Builder.
Based on the past few years, trail building has consisted of:
1. owner occasionally and randomly decided to re-design something / burn a wooden drop that customers had built him. It usually makes the run worse.
2. Letting some teenagers use a digger to build their own new lines.
3. Customers organising their own dig days
Comparing it to Rogate, twisted, windhill etc there is no building.
If they are doing maintainance, no-one can see it.
but double seems a bit much
Do you get twice as many runs in on an ebike? If yes, twice the price seems about right.
I don't get why you care so much about riding there when it's apparently terrible.
I wouldn't characterise it as terrible at all. Convenient, fun, 'agricultural', amateur, good spirit of helping out between riders, erratic speed needed, un-rideable in bad weather.
I'm feel positive about the place, just not this new business model. If he's really comparing himself to other pro-run parks, I might as well spend less and go to rogate.
At the end of the day it’s all highly subjective. One man’s (or woman’s) bargain is another’s rip-off innit.
its a bit like the debates about whether people who use this website a lot should pay the equivalent of 10pence per day to use it. I’m of the view that it’s such an incredible resource that people who aren’t willing to cough that up should be ashamed of themselves. But it’s just my opinion. The freeloaders just have to suck up all the crappy ads.
Percentage type arguments at this level of expenditure are a bit misleading. After all an increase from £1 a year to £2 a year is a 100%!!!! increase. I’d also counsel that being sure of your facts won’t do your credibility any harm before you get called out for being wrong about a basic aspect of the charging regime that you’re having a pop at.
I do subscribe a bit to the headshaking around people who are willing to spend many, many thousands on bikes etc who then complain about being asked to spend a few quid comparatively (see also threads about car park charges at free trail centres and singletrack subscriptions) on associated services. Reeks a bit of 1st world problems.
The bit about the owner getting tetchy is another so what, and not relevant to your original question. Anyway, running a business is hard work and the people who are willing to risk it all to roll the dice aren’t necessarily the most tolerant or diplomatic. Doesn’t mean we don’t have to do business with them per se. I know from personal experience that the aged bearded fella who used to spend a lot of time in hot air balloons is a heavy drinking misogynist who thinks nothing of dragging a young woman into his limo for a quick grope. But I’ve still procured services related to online entertainment from his enterprise.
Anyway, as much as I’ve enjoyed writing this rather than fixing my bike, the nub of it is you pays your money (or not) and makes your choice. Going on a forum such as this will merely demonstrate to you that some people agree with you and some don’t.
Do pop back and let us know what you decide in due course, I for one will hardly sleep until I know..
Grifters
I do subscribe a bit to the headshaking around people who are willing to spend many, many thousands on bikes etc who then complain about being asked to spend a few quid comparatively
Phones are the poster child here. Folk will pay a four-figure sum for a Samsung Ultra Pro GTi Turbo or an Apple Near-Infinity what have you, then baulk at paying 69p for an app.
Sorry for the late reply Raify - I was out digging.
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Building new stuff is early spring and autumn when the ground is moist enough but not just wet mud. Last weekend, this weekend, probably next weekend for 2 - 4 hours a day with as many volunteers as you can find. Maintenance is a couple of hours a week during the riding season. I use Council land so they have basic insurance. It is not a commercial park so there is no commercial liability for those involved providing the Council have okayed the work.
What Cougar says about maintenance is right. A few little braking bumps left untended grow into an unrideable corner with lots of alternative lines around them and general trail destruction. This is the couple of hours a week. plus litter picking whenever you are up there of course.
Based on the past few years, trail building has consisted of:
1. owner occasionally and randomly decided to re-design something / burn a wooden drop that customers had built him. It usually makes the run worse.
2. Letting some teenagers use a digger to build their own new lines.
3. Customers organising their own dig days
If they are doing maintainance, no-one can see it.
Really don't know why you even want to go? On roots and rain the first race was 2007 so they must be doing some thing ok it not easy running venue for 18 years with no maintenance and just burning stuff. I know our little secret spot doesn't run its self. I respect any one who put a spade in the ground and moaning about a spot is just poor if you don't like it don't go why keep slagging it. Besides normal day ticket are £8 that's very reasonable?