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No 😉
You are Captain John Price (and you can keep the £5, sir) 😀
unless your sources are either peer reviewed or the raw data, I would be very careful at what your 'research' tells you.
Eoro, never have i been so insulted, me an officer, i prefer to work for a living.
Bigrich, put me in the picture then mate, what am i missing ?
Anokdale, how much of the conflict did you see? and was there any risk from Gaddafi artillery such as tanks and missile launchers?
Nice one anokdale I don't know anyone who went for a holiday from work / trip through the Libyan war!
No doubt the media personnel you where with who were extensively filming the western backed Islamic extremist fighters to gain them support with the public and NATO forces which included CIA also SAS, would have found having someone with intricate knowledge of the country including the position of it's oil and gas facilities and their layouts very helpful.
In fact thinking about it just now what a stroke of jolly good luck that must have been old boy!
We can then say that Muammar Gaddafi did not oppress the people of Libya but in fact brought peace! to his country. Whilst the rest of Africa was ravaged by war! 42 years of tyranny or 42 years of peace and prosperity.
42 years of peace...well, apart from the slight inconvenience of a war with Chad that lasted more than twenty years and a failed war against Egypt and decades of vanity funding of terrorist groups.
our right to interfere in an armed conflict between two waring parties, but also to give one side a massive advantage over the other, especially when the other side is the legitimate government.
When you say "legitimate", what's your metric for legitimacy?
A government and regime that was to receive an award for human rights, an award that was put on hold until after the WAR!
I seem to remember that Menachem Begin, Barack Obama and Henry Kissinger have all won the Nobel Peace Prize. Forgive me if I am not too blown away.
The brain child of Muammar Gaddafi, not only did he invest $33 billion and in so doing become one of the worlds truly great visionaries, he also ended up transforming baron desert into lush arable land.
Hmm, an energy-intensive non-renewable $25bn project to interfere with nature. Are you familiar with the Aral Sea?
So Gaddafi was responsible for the outlawing or sharia law
Well, "outlawing" in the sense of "adopting"... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Libya
What exactly did your search consist of? I think I liked you more when you talked nonsense about Asda and the Royal Mail.
Hahahahaha! very funny Konabunny! I thought people like you were programmed to like almost no one, that you are in fact programmed to fight and argue and to cause conflict at every oppertunity in vain attempts to gain control of situations or be perceived as some how the winner.
Gaddafi did outlaw Sharia, however he did it in such a way as not too provoke widespread unrest.
He kept the name of Sharia, however all forms of bias, sexism, racism and oppression were undermined by the system of law, some will understand that under Gaddafi socialism thrived and he did what was necessary for the good of his country and people!
If Sharia kona bunny was already being used in Libya, how can it now be reintroduced, are they reintroducing something that is already there? hahahahaha, how does that work?
The Green Book, Gaddafi's outline of his political and economic philosophy for Libya, officially accepts religion and customary law as sources of law for society.[14] In 1977, the Libyan government promulgated the Declaration of People's Power, which superseded the constitution; this also stated that the Qur'an was the source of legislation for Libya.
[15] However, throughout the late 1970s and 1980s, Gaddafi repeatedly emphasised in speeches that Islamic law was an insufficient basis for modern economic and social relations, and that the traditional Islamic guidelines for property and commerce had no legal standing.[16] In practise, secular policies overrode religion as a source of law.[14] Thus, by 1990, Ann Elizabeth Mayer of the University of Pennsylvania described Gaddafi's actual progress towards the Islamisation of Libyan law as "very modest", and largely aimed not at reviving specific sharia rules, but enforcing public morality consistent with Libyan values.[11]
One area in particular in which Libyan laws are inconsistent with sharia is in the penal law, where the punishments are lighter than those mandated by traditional hudud, especially in the case of needy offenders. Mayer analyses this as leniency inspired by the Libyan government's socialist principles.[17] The Libyan government also viewed sharia's protection of private property, along with principles of Islamic law regarding contracts and commerce, as incompatible with a socialist economic programme.
[19] The Maliki school continued to be used as the source of Islamic law; however, if Maliki sources do not cover a certain question, reference is made to the Libyan Penal Code and the Libyan Code of Penal Procedure, rather than other schools of sharia law. The practical aim of this procedure seems to have been to limit the number and scope of sharia laws applied.
So not outlawing in the sense of adopting, taking an ancient religion such as Islam and adapting it to the needs of a modern world.
It seems to me that apart from the always open-minded kaesae, everyone on STW is a programmed automata, only able to spout whatever the government controlled media tells us to think and speak. 🙄
So not outlawing in the sense of adopting, taking an ancient religion such as Islam and adapting it to the needs of a modern world.
So, err, yes - not outlawing, as you originally claimed.
Are you going to address any of the other factual howlers you made?
It seems to me that being the majority does not mean that you are in fact correct, through out history has it not been the case that the commonly held view was in fact wrong or at least illogical?
Is the history of western society, not in fact the history of widespread delusion and ignorance?
For example if we look back 100 years and analyze the world then, would we not shake our heads and say how wrong we were, if people 100 years ago looked back a further 100 years, would they not also say how wrong we were?
If we look back say to before homosexuals had rights and it was seen as a disease of the mind 😯 or further back before women had the right to vote and were seen as not the equals of men ❓ would we not say how wrong we were!
What about the treatment in western culture of minority groups and discrimination or exploitation, looking back they are crimes against humanity, however at the time they were the socially accepted norm.
So Countzero I ask you this, at all times as previously mentioned in the history of western culture and with those who were living and perpetrating acts that we can say today were simply wrong. How many new that what they did was wrong or irrational?
As for media it is not hard to see the affects it is having on our culture.
I am a freakin fracky googly eyes titacus, I am without a doubt the greatest failure and retard in relation to potential in the history of our race.
In fact I except that not only am I an idiot who doesn't have a clue but that even if I did have a clue and was reasonably intelligent or had something to contribute to society. That wouldn't count for shit when it came to getting a job or earning a living.
I except that there is no place in your society or culture for me 😀
That is why I avoid it like the plague, I do not wish to see the world as you see it, I do not wish to assume or not question everything.
The truth to me is that which cannot be disproven by all means of questioning and logical analysis, it is that which is constant and unchanging!
Where is the truth or respect for it, in your way of life?
Konabunny, here is how I can claim that Gaddafi outlawed Sharia.
The only place that the form of Sharia that Gaddafi advocated was found is in Libya, in fact the majority if the rest of the Islamic world for the most part consider that Gaddafi does not practice Sharia law.
So if those who practice Sharia and who are in charge of the Islamic faith do not consider what Gaddafi practiced to be Sharia, who would know better than them kona bunny? me? you? or them?
Gaddafi created a new form of Sharia law that is unrecognized, however it is also a form of Sharia law that is democratic and could be integrated into western cultures, if only the west had the good common sense to appreciate the fact!
Did I ever tell you about my old neighbour? Ran his fancy dress business into the ground.
Compared to destroying the planet and rendering it uninhabitable, that doesn't really worry me too much!
Most enlightening, this thread.
Carry on, keep up the good work everyone.
For 42 years Gaddafi kept a peace between countless, tribes, sects and factions.
He improved on the educational standard of his country and also the health care, before he came to power large parts of libya were shanty towns.
He encouraged migrant workers to come and live in the country and even publicly apologized for Libya's involvement in the slave trade.
One city of dark skinned libyans was of course Tawargha http://www.npr.org/2012/06/12/154763937/after-libyas-war-acts-of-vengeance
So a city of men women and children rose up marched to war and raped a far larger city?
Have a look at some of these people so that they are more than just statistics, you can find a photo below.
All of these facts can be easily varified, the report from the UN which was sidelined during the war confirms a lot of what has been said.
I do not know what happened in Libya I am however starting to form a much better picture, I will reiterate my stance on this, we cannot and do not have the right to tell someone in a completely different set of circumstances from us, how they must act in those circumstances.
We cannot at this point say if Muammar Gaddafi was right or wrong, all we can do is wait and see what transpires for the Libyan people from here on.
However because of the great amount of resources the US, UK also France as well as other governments stand to gain as a result of the changes in Libya, we must question the motives involved in our declaring war on a people and NATO's involvement.
If it is wrong to speak out and say that a lot of this makes no sense, then I am wrong, if it is wrong to say I would very much like to research this subject more and gain a better perspective, then I am wrong. If it is wrong to draw attention to the mans life's work considering the circumstances these works took place under, then I am wrong.
The next few months and years will tell us the true story of what happened, just as time has told us the truth about Iraq.
I knew I'd regret trying to communicate with kaesae. I do try to see the best in people.
a thousand hairy savages sitting down to lunch, gooble, gooble,gooble munch ,munch,munch.S Milligan
We cannot at this point say if Muammar Gaddafi was right or wrong, all we can do is wait and see what transpires for the Libyan people from here on.
No, we can quite clearly and easily say he was wrong. Whether he was less wrong than western backed regime change is another matter.
(Nature abhors a vacuum: this forum is keenly feeling the argumentative absence of the AngloScottish Messiah, but I am truly thankful for kaesae for stepping in to fill the hole.)
I knew I'd regret trying to communicate with kaesae. I do try to see the best in people.
I find it quite awe-inspiring that this is, quite possibly, the best of kaesae. It is entirely possible that things could actually get weirder and go downhill from here.
No we cannot at this point say if what he did was necessary to bring the peace and prosperity Libya had experienced.
In the middle of states at constant war and attrocities being commited in countries all around libya, the people there lived in relative peace and prosperity.
How many people starved to death under Gaddafi? how many people have starved to death under Barack Obama?
We see more and more unrest in the streets of America, with defenceless individuals being murdered in cold blood by American police and police brutality spiraling out of control.
How can we say Gaddafi is wrong? he vastly improved the country and the quality of life there, from what my research has shown.
If you have actual evidence to contradict this then present it for analysis
What we can say however is that western people or the majority of western people, will make up their minds without verifying the facts.
That western view points are not changeable regardless of the facts.
Not long ago most people believed that climate change was just a mith, that it was just scare mongering.
The experts for the most part agreed, there was and is nothing wrong, who at the time believed that? so time passes and we realize that had we acted then, we would not be in so much shit right now.
Decisions are being made on assumptions and assumptions are being made on common misperceptions and clear lies.
However Libya's HDI speaks for it's self!
Look at the video footage at the right of the screen, firther down you will see rallies in many major cities in support of Gaddafi, how do you explain this support?
http://globalciviliansforpeace.com/2011/11/09/the-standard-of-living-in-libya/
No matter what else is said this information and the figures speak volumes, here we see facts that can be verified, or am I mistaken about the information?
Kaesae, I seem to remember you flouncing off a while ago. Glad to see you back. The Lazer thread is still one of my all time favorites!
I'm astounded. All this typing and research, in an effort to argue with well, I think it's yourself.
Top work!
Once I have finished what I have to say I will be yet again on my way!
However let me tell you about something I recently realized, the emotions that each of us carry within us only have the power over us that we unwittingly give them.
Others peoples negative emotions are projected towards us and because we do not understand what is happening inside us, we automatically respond by directing more negativity out towards them. Thus the situation escalates and emotions run out of control, this can also lead to violence.
However once you not only realize but also analyze this response within yourself, it is possible to deny the process what it requires to occur. Too many people are unhappy, too many people are stressed, too many people are worrying about what they will need to face in the future. You cannot change what you will face, but you can decide how it affects you.
It is not only me that will be judged on what is said here, all of you will be judged as well. The difference is of course no matter what happens to me in life, my mind will stay calm and peaceful and I will act as I believe I should as defined by my beliefs.
I believe a great crime has been committed against the people of Libya, Gaddafi has gone some say good some say bad, that does not matter. Here is what I believe matters, the people of Libya are in grave danger and we put them there!
In this documentary it is claimed that Al Qaeda were responsible for the unrest and attacks on Libyan military installations
So if it was Al Qaeda forces that were the heart of the revolution, where did they end up?
The Answer is quite simple really, Mali! 3x Northern cities in Mali have been Captured by Al Qaeda using NATO weapons and Equipment that they also used in Libya.
http://www.frontlineonnet.com/fl2909/stories/20120518290906100.htm
There are you revolutionaries, still armed with the weapons that they seized or NATO supplied them with!
Don't worry though as the story gets better, one of the main targets in THE DAY OF RAGE peaceful demonstrations was of course the banks.
Al Qaeda now have more than enough money to fund there newly formed state in Mali, so not only have we armed Al Qaeda and given them a huge base of operations, they also have massive funding!
GO NATO!
Saying that I might still be wrong about all of this, any actual evidence going to be presented for analysis?
Mad as a box of frogs. Priceless.
But superb entertainment. I imagine him typing furiously away in a Scottish dungeon with 'the truth will out' written across the wall in blood and faeces.
You have to admire his perseverance and sense of purpose. Can't help but think that all this effort directed towards a bunch of middle aged mountain bikers is unlikely to bring about a change in world foreign policy though.
How did the war in Libya actually start? by that I mean how did the UN and NATO get involved.
The answer is that several Humanitarian and Human rights groups rallied around one group of Human rights activists the LLHR
In this report there are some very interesting facts.
http://www.voltairenet.org/Lybia-Human-rights-impostors-used
Major LLHR members
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libyan_League_for_Human_Rights
appear to also be member of the NTC
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Transitional_Council
Who is Soliman Bouchuiguir?
I find it quite awe-inspiring that this is, quite possibly, the best of kaesae. It is entirely possible that things could actually get weirder and go downhill from here.
You actually believe it could get weirder? Actually, yes you're right, things really could get very weird indeed.
Actually, if someone could précis all the stuff that kaesae has written, I'd appreciate it, I just couldn't bring myself to read it all, let alone all the links. I've reached a point in my life where I have to savour every moment, and slitting my wrists in a hot bath doesn't figure in that scenario. 😉
Those who embrace ignorance and self delusion have no need to read anything, they have no need to verify facts or feel any respect for the truth, you can make your decisions based on what ever you like to fit your warped perspectives on the world.
You can decide the truth behind and the righteousness of our involvement in the Libyan conflict by simply deciding that it was fair.
Here behold the greatness of your powers.
Every day average Libyan people taking up arms and fighting for their way of life, massively out matched in terms of technology and weaponry
Although I am ashamed to be from the western world and our participation in this and other crimes against humanity, looking at them refusing to surrender I am proud to be a decent human being!
Those who embrace ignorance and self delusion have no need to read anything, they have no need to verify facts or feel any respect for the truth, you can make your decisions based on what ever you like to fit your warped perspectives on the world.
Unfortunately, referencing Wikipedia and websites created by other loons does not pass muster as 'verify' or 'truth'. You go ahead and believe what you want to - aliens, secret lizard overlords, conspiracy - anything! Don't expect many people to buy your version by posting on here.
I'd recommend starting your own website and sharing your version of the truth with far more people.
Has anyone here ridden with kaesae? Kinda wondering whether he might be an AI that's being Google alpha'd or worse still, the beginning of SkyNet.
Brilliant!, just brilliant.... we need more of this sort of thing!
You actually believe it could get weirder? Actually, yes you're right, things really could get very weird indeed.
Brilliant!, just brilliant.... we need more of this sort of thing!
Be careful what you wish for. This is my benchmark for these things:
[url= http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/ ]In the Beginning[/url]
A stunning body of work 😀
So if it was Al Qaeda forces that were the heart of the revolution, where did they end up?The Answer is quite simple really, Mali! 3x Northern cities in Mali have been Captured by Al Qaeda using NATO weapons and Equipment that they also used in Libya.
Did you actually read the story you linked to?
The people that had come from Libya were Malians who had been recruited by Gaddafi and returned to Mali after Gaddafi was overthrown. They were not Libyan revolutionaries but quite the opposite.
Their weapons are a mix of what they were issued under Gaddafi and what they seized from the Malian government, not weapons that NATO supplied them with.
Libya has gone off-script. This was supposed to be a simple story: naive liberals support Libyan revolution, Islamists hijack revolution. The end. Last year, the American Spectator warned that “it is becoming increasingly apparent that Islamism will be the dominant political force in the country”, with “ever more visible links to al-Qaeda”. John Bradley, writing in this country’s Spectator, wailed that “self-declared former al-Qaeda fighters and bands of tribal fanatics” had taken over Libya and “imposed sharia law on the once-secular country”.So, how is that post-revolutionary Islamist wasteland shaping up today? Well, a coalition led by the Western-educated political scientist and former interim Prime Minister Mahmoud Jibril appears to have won Libya’s first free elections in 60 years, sweeping aside its Islamist opponents
ARRHAHAHAHAHAR
The OP's a tool!
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/08/12/uk-libya-assembly-president-idUKBRE87B0E920120812
Libya working towards conciliatory coalition governance/co-operative politics.
Here's the kind of people that the OP is quoting. Biased, delusional and pro Gaddafi individuals.
Roberts fell in love with Gaddafi’s Libya back in 1999 when he was sent their by his SLP boss, Arthur Scargill, to attend an international youth conference in Tripoli.
http://warincontext.org/2011/04/20/gaddafis-useful-idiots-british-civilians-for-peace-in-libya/
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/19/gaddafi-violence-exaggerated-british-group
That just fits your warped perspectives on the world
Here is my understanding of the situation, the revolt was started by western operatives supporting Al Qaeda who attacked in mass several locations in Libya using the limited aggression of the Libyan government and security personnel to their advantage.
It was further escalated via facebook and mobile phones to ensure that Libyan citizens not familiar with western technology and facebook would rise up in support of the lies and manipulation used. Giving cover to the military actions that were taking place and that were covered by the mass privately owned media corporations and the Arab owned Al Gazeera.
As the conflict grew more and more groups of armed insurgents joined the fighting including a large number of Islamic extremists in the immediate vicinity. The reason for this was two fold, the islamic extremists were promised the chance to remove and kill Gaddafi and od as they please but also weapons / munition and equipment and large quantities of money from the banks and looting the populace.
As the Islamic extremists drove through Libya with nato's kind assistance they grew in number, not surprising considering that thousands of Al Qaeda and other islamic extremists were held and then freed from Libyan prisons.
So Islamic extremist have started a war with the Libyan authorities backed by SAS and CIA then swept through Libya with NATO support, freed all of the prisoners being held, looted countless government building and civilian homes as well as committing all sort of crimes against humanity.
Then they have made their way to Mali as an organized cohesive and well provisioned army and seized 3x of it's northern cities, if you are saying that the Libyan people hired Al Qaeda to protect them from Al Qaeda, I'm not sure that makes any sense!
Where exactly did Al Qaeda get a fully formed and provisioned army, that they then used to invade Mali?
Simple really, it's the same army of Al Qaeda / Islamic extremist that has just waged war against the libyan people! with the help of the LLHR / NTC.
The core of the revolution was the extremists, without them the Libyan government has no real cohesive fighting force, watch Libya and you will see constant fighting between different factions / militias, you will also see constant actions from the Libyan people who will never accept slavery.
Research this and you will see that the Libyan people fought to the bitter end, that they rallied in huge numbers in every major city in support of their way of life.
bwaarp - MemberHere's the kind of people that the OP is quoting. Biased, delusional and pro Gaddafi individuals.
"Roberts fell in love with Gaddafi’s Libya back in 1999 when he was sent their by his SLP boss, Arthur Scargill, to attend an international youth conference in Tripoli".
Why do you attach so much importance to the opinions of Paul Woodward ?
Is he some sort of arbiter of what is right and wrong ?
I've never heard of the guy before.